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Assie selections - Lions Tour

Started by clevermike20 REPLIES459 VIEWS· 15 May 2013, 16:15
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 May 2013, 16:15
#1
15 May 2013, 16:15#1

While searching for the teams - I came across the following article in the  Western Australian:-

"Who leaked the email?

Some of Australia's Super Rugby coaches are annoyed and suspicious their collective Test selections have been revealed four days before the Wallabies' initial 25-man squad for the Lions series is unveiled on Sunday.

The Australian Rugby Union is also mystified as to how an email from Wallabies coach Robbie Deans to the five Super coaches, containing the 23-man team they would have picked through a regular selection exercise, fell into the hands of a News Ltd newspaper.

The leaked team showed the coaches, reportedly not including NSW mentor Michael Cheika who declined, didn't rate superstar convert Israel Folau or controversial Reds playmaker Quade Cooper as worthy of playing the three-Test series.

It's understood players were ranked on a 3-2-1 basis over a number of weeks until late last month.

Despite their strong recent form, Waratahs fullback Folau and Cooper were left out of the team while James O'Connor was named at five-eighth and suspended star Kurtley Beale was on the bench.

Three of the four coaches who responded were all disappointed and upset their views found their way into the public arena.

One could not be contacted.

"It's a process that we've done in the past each year and suddenly it's in the paper," one coach told AAP. "Our thoughts were requested back in March so some of the opinions are aged.

"To read it in the paper verbatim is frustrating.

"All we've tried to do is help the Wallabies with good intentions.

"Now to read it in the paper is very disappointing.

"It would be interesting to know how the information got out there."

Another coach confirmed Deans had apologised when it was brought to his attention the newspaper had received a copy of his email.

The provincial coach suspected it had been leaked mischievously - and did not rule out it being the misdeeds of a Super counterpart.

"You have to shake your head that this has been leaked by someone the day after it's been sent," he said.

"It's poor form.

"It doesn't help the relationship between the national coach and provincial coaches, and it's distracting for the players."

While the ARU denied the leak had come from within, one coach questioned the relevance of the selections considering Deans' strategy and tactics were not shared.

"It's very well asking what the Super Rugby coaches think but we all coach our teams differently," he said.

"If you know the strategy you might pick a different team."

Among other notable selections was the choice of Liam Gill at No.7 ahead of Michael Hooper, at a time George Smith was largely regarded is ineligible, and Jesse Mogg at fullback."

Despite the hullabaloo about the leaked e-mails - it is apparent that -

*   Israil Folau and Quade Cooper is not going to be in teh squad to be announced; and

*   Jesse Mogg is going to play at ful back.

 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 May 2013, 16:34
#2
15 May 2013, 16:34#2

Ou Maaik, I also saw that article on the Rugbyheaven website. The article itself states that the coaches ratings were done up to some time last month and since then, both Israel Folau and Quade Cooper have put in some excellent performances, Jesse Mogg has gone off the boil while Kurtley Beale has pretty much wrecked his career.

 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the alleged 3-week old ratings mentioned in that article . . . and it sounds to me as if Jake White's anti-Folau and pro-Mogg comments were the ones that were leaked.

 

I can believe Quade Cooper is still very doubtful (mainly because of his "toxic" comments rather than anything else) but I'll be very surprised if Israel Folau isn't a starter in the 1st test and I'll be even more surprised if Kurtley Beale cracks the squad. If Jesse Mogg makes the bench then it won't be because of any sparkling current form, it'll be because of Kurtley Beale's drinking problems.

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
15 May 2013, 17:47
#3
15 May 2013, 17:47#3

Deans has too much to lose by not including Folau. If the Wallabies struggle against the Lions, everyone will be pointing fingers at his exclusion as the reason why. Deans interest in self-preservation will force him to select Folau imo.

 

I think Barnes form on Saturday will have an impact on the Cooper decision. Gotta think that Deans preference is to keep Cooper out of the team if he can. Would also think Deans is probably also pretty frantic to know about O'Connor's condition although I think it would be a mistake to select O'Connor at flyhalf. Lealifano not really an option in my opinion simply because he hasn't played that position hardly at all.

 

 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 May 2013, 18:14
#4
15 May 2013, 18:14#4

Interesting, Oimatey. So if you didn't play a fit James O'Connor at flyhalf where would you play him . . . or wouldn't you pick him at all?

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
15 May 2013, 19:04
#5
15 May 2013, 19:04#5

 Rooi,

 

I'd put him at fullback - better kicker than Folau as well as the experience with positional play etc but also has the deadly counter-attacking - I think the Aussies will really be challenged by the Lions territorial kicking and while Folau has learned a lot this year its asking too much at that level. I would put Folau on the wing where he would still be under the high ball,  but also get the ball in his hands off set pieces and in the loose and let AAC and co run off him all day long looking for offloads. 

 

Cooper would be my 1st choice at flyhalf (off the field issues notwithstanding which I think they could work through to get the best team on the field) but I think Barnes ends up there especially if he is in good form the remaining three weeks of Super Rugby. Rate his defense slightly better for the Lions direct approach and he brings better attacking play with the boot than O'Connor - especially if Folau is on the wing.

 

I think you have the best of all worlds if you are able to get Folau, O'Connor and Barnes on the field at the same time. Throw in Genia and you have boatloads of creativity (which the Lions lack) and game-breakers in the lineup.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 May 2013, 21:23
#6
15 May 2013, 21:23#6

Yes, some valid points there, oimatey.

 

Not a bad problem that Deans has . . . how to squeeze Will Genia, Quade Cooper, James O'Connor, Christian Leali'ifano, Pat McCabe, Anthony Fainga'a, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Digby Ioane, Israel Folau, Kurtley Beale and Jesse Mogg into one backline.

 

Lucky for the rest of us their forwards are so crap!

 

Edit: Meant to add, I excluded Berrick Barnes intentionally because I think he's an overrated donkey.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
15 May 2013, 21:52
#7
15 May 2013, 21:52#7

 Rooi, Id have Ben Tapuai ahead of McCabe and Faunga'a.....dont rate those two much.

 

My backline would be 15. Beale 14. Digby 13. Ashley Cooper 12. O'Connor 11. Folau 10. Cooper 9. Genia, although I'd be tempted to swap O'Connor and Folau around, but then Folau needs to be tried at 12 now

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
15 May 2013, 22:15
#8
15 May 2013, 22:15#8

 Saff - Beale is out of the conversation at this point, so who would your fullback be? Come to the dark side ...... put O'Connor at 15 and Tapuai at 12 !

 

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
15 May 2013, 22:40
#9
15 May 2013, 22:40#9

i reckon the wallabies can beat the lions without folau and cooper and beat them easy, but it would be a mistake not to include them.
something tells me that coopers comments about not playing for the wallabies even if he was selected last year has burned one too many bridges, hence the latest round of squad snubbings by deano.

the talk earlier this year about deano wanting to see more of oconner at flyhalf speaks volumes IMO, oconner was pretty awesome for the wallabies against wales in 2011.

i like the thought of oconner at fullback with folau on the wing, but if quade is not selected, something i can see happening, then beales rehab issues will most likely see ocnner at 10 and then folau would be the logical choice for fullback.
wallabies have some real nice depth for a squad and their 22 will be freaking awesome.

my wallabies team,,,
1 b alexander, 2 s moore, 3 j slipper, 4 s timani, 5 j horiwll, 6 s higginbotham, 7 l gill, 8 b mowen, 9 w genia, 10 q cooper, 11 d ioane, 12 b tapuaii, 13 AAC, 14 i folau , 15 j bieber
16 j hanson, 17 b robinson, 18 r simmons, 19 m hooper, 20 n white, 21 c leilafano, 22 j mogg

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 May 2013, 01:43
#10
16 May 2013, 01:43#10

Oi, if I was Oz coach, I'd be having a word with Beale to ensure he was on board. I'm sure Beale is not stupid enough to pass up the opportunity to play the Lions for he sure as hell will not get the opportunity again.

 

Sas that Oz pack does not inspire me with confidence, but its probably the best they can come up with.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
16 May 2013, 03:05
#11
16 May 2013, 03:05#11

They have already stated that Beale will not be in contention for the Lions Tour because of his alcohol issues, so he is a non-starter.

RE
redsmanPro1,710 posts
16 May 2013, 06:18
#12
16 May 2013, 06:18#12

Quite simply the problem IS deans... say what you like but the fact we have a KIWI coach who idolises the ABs is absolutely pathetic. The fact that the reds combinations have and continue to be effective under McKenzie speask volumes about Dean's poor coaching. I hope Deans gets given the sack straight after lions - he is a remnant of poor ARU decisions made by previous CEO John Oneill - QC's comments re toxic environment would have been absolutely spot-on - he's not a vindicative kid just calls it as it is and the media hype it...

Given the context (thats come to light) re these player selections I can only hope that they are a little dated - for me best aussie backline (under best aussie coach - Ewen Mckenzie); Genia 9, QC 10, Inside Centre? (Lots of options but tend to agree with Saffex I would like to see Folau give it a go), AAC 13, Ioane 11, oconnor 14, KB (if off the grog - but would definitely slot Folau there and prby Tapuai in 12). Bench - Mogg, White (9 from brumbies)

Folau's high ball / attack / defence can and will only get better - he can kick too - he played AFL for 2seasons and the whole gaem consists of kicking - I just dont think hes got self belief there yet.

As for Asusie fwd pack - Brumby front row / Qld second row / back row - Gill over hooper, Mowen / Palu 8, higgin 6. Fwd reserves TPN, Palu, Timani, Robinson

 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 May 2013, 12:40
#13
16 May 2013, 12:40#13
Well if Deans had any brains he would make sure Beale was involved, booze or no booze. Problem is, he is a fool as we have already seen that he is going to snub Cooper, the best attacking 10 in the game.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
16 May 2013, 13:57
#14
16 May 2013, 13:57#14

Serious question, redsman, do you think that Australia should only ever have an Australian Coach ?

I know that a large section of the public over there have never taken to Deans, simply because he was not " one of you " , and he really has tried to force a style of play on the team that is anathema to the way you guys instinctively play the game. It hasn't worked, has it ? You aren't NZ, your strengths lie elsewhere.

But do you think the fact that he is a New Zealander and not an Australian has had a bearing on the way that the team has fragmented ? It isn't a happy camp, it hasn't been a happy camp and we can see that from the outside.

I know you will pull together to play the Lions and we can see how well so many of the players are performing leading up to the Tour right now, but it never seems to click once everyone gets into the National Camp with him, does it ?

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 May 2013, 14:55
#15
16 May 2013, 14:55#15

One has to raise the issue of motivation. When last have we seen Oz super 15 teams so focused?  When last has Deans had so many guys desparate to play in a test series. Add to that a better pool of players to pick from.

Deans may save his job by winning this series. He would claim he has developed a young which is now bearing fruit. He would be a fool not to pick the best.

Provided Oz can match the Lions pack they should win.  Beale if fit should play.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
16 May 2013, 18:13
#16
16 May 2013, 18:13#16

the aussies here are very passionate bunch when it comes to their sport, they are also as the saying goes, not the sharpest tools in the shed, LMAO, :oP
but their passion for all sports is very great and so is their demand for success and this is why deans has been ata loggerheads in the court of public opinons and why he has so many detarctors.

but if u were to logically look at what deans has done during hie wallaby coaching tenure, the numbers speak for them sleves really.
- when deans took over, the wallabies were 5th on the IRB rankings, they are currently 3rd but during after just being ousted by the Boks last year. during robbies time they have been 2nd behind only the All Blacks for over 85% of his time as coach.
- the wallabies have only won three TriNat titles in their 17 year history (same as the Boks) and deans is responsible for their latest title in 2011. the last time they held the blesdisloe was back in 2002.
- wallabies finished 6th in the last 2007 RWC, but finsihed 3rd 4 years laster under robbie with the youngest team in the entire tournament.
- deans was the first wallaby coach in 47 years to win in SAx highveldt.
- wallabies winning percentage under deans is 59.2%, winning 42 from 71 tests, during this time they have played the All Blacks 18 times and winning only 3 tests and drwaing one.
no other team in the world has had to play the All Blacks as many times as the wallabies, and were talking about the All Blacks here, who have been IRB No1 ranked team over twice as long as both england and the Boks have been No1 combined, the same All Blacks who has the better winning percentage over everyone bar none.
bottomline u take the All Blacks out of the equation and deans record holds its own better then anyone elses during that period

deans v tier 1 nations
Boks - 64.3% 9 wins, 5 losses from 14 games
england - 66.7% 4 wins, 2 losses from 6 games
france - 83.3% 5 wins, 1 loss from 6 games
azzuri - 100% 6 wins from 6 games
ireland - 50% 2 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw from 4 games
scotland - 100% 2 wins from 2 games
wales - 88.9% 8 wins, 1 loss from 9 games

personally i hope that they do get rid of deans, if theyre stupid enough to not see that the All Blacks had their way with them before deans, then i cant wait to see what they blame next???
i also think that tests need to be done on all those banned substances whic australian sport have taken, cos its having a setrimental effect on thier single digit IQs.

RE
redsmanPro1,710 posts
17 May 2013, 05:15
#17
17 May 2013, 05:15#17

@sucker I know you think kiwis are super intelligent but the reality is that you are all very small minded and pedantic and most aussies have more important things to worry about than talking up how clever you are - I know its akin to small man syndrome but on a national level - its seems to get heightened when moving to Australia for some reason - prbably increased insecurities as you dont get really get the Aussie physke.. That aside - Deans brought in some good changes early on in the piece about 5 yrs back I agree. Bottom line is that the team IS divided the RWC should have been a lot closer and the stars in SXV have never performed under him. He's stale and worst of all he idolises the ABs and hence the reason aussies have never beaten them in a bledisloe under his coaching.(full stop - you've been educated)

@Becs - I have no doubt in my mind that Wallabies would perform best under an Aussie coach at this point in time - that being Ewen McKenzie. He has consistently proved his creditials and heard an interview with James Slipper the other day on the radio and he nailed it - its ALL about culture.... something Dean's personality and nationality obviously dont endear him with Aussie rugby mentality - he just doesnt get it bottom line. Most kiwis do not get Aussies - they claim we're all stupid (ie sucker above) but its just we take a lighter-hearted approach to life in general and dont feel the need to tell everyone how good we are - in fact we enjoy tearing each other down - thus keeping us all grounded. 

Deans is stale and needs to go pronto and Ewen needs to take the job (as sad as it will be for Qld rugby) this is the fact and thought shared by the core rugby community of Australia (ie private schooled, educated rugby enthusiasts).  

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
17 May 2013, 15:06
#18
17 May 2013, 15:06#18

Hate to admit this, redsman, as we are diametrically opposed by nature !, but I totally agree with you. I think Australia would always perfoem best under an Australian Coach. I don't agree with National Coaches of any country being from another country full stop. And yes, I think that McKenzie should have his chance. Foreign coaches do not understand the ethos and mentality that surrounds a country simply because they are being paid to Coach there. They may be a good Coach, but it's not all about that. It's more than that, it's about the intangibles and you can't pass those on to a team if you haven't lived them. There also seems to be an air of resentment surrounding your lot, which isn't very healthy. You couldn't really have had a worse Coach thrust upon you, could you....a New Zealander coaching Australia ? ! That was never going to work !!

 

As for the comments about Australians being stupid.....hmmmm. Well, it's a bit odd coming from New Zealand, put it that way !!

PE
poi-ePro1,044 posts
17 May 2013, 15:32
#19
17 May 2013, 15:32#19

Yes well we all enjoyed the English ethos and mentality at the 2007 World Cup...I bet all foreign coaches hope to reach such lofty heights set by your British coached national team...

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
17 May 2013, 20:33
#20
17 May 2013, 20:33#20

@redsneck,

u are one dumb prick, ur idea of educatiing is hilarious, :oD

redsneck - "...hence the reason aussies have never beaten them in a bledisloe under his coaching.(full stop - you've been educated)"

yet in the post directly above his comment
sasuke - "the last time they (wallabies) held the blesdisloe was back in 2002."

so ur definition fo educating someone is teaching them something they already know??? o_O
do i stand up now and give a sympathetic applause, or should i just quietly leave and hopre redsneck dosent talk to me again????

the real question here is do i laugh at u cos of ur XXXX education or do i pity u cos of ur XXXX education???
while i deal with this, redsneck is wondering why he cant tie his shoelaces.
pssssst redsneck, thats not ur shoe, ur standing barefoot in the toliet, LMAO, :oD

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
17 May 2013, 20:51
#21
17 May 2013, 20:51#21

@becs,

regarding a few of ur comments,,,

"You couldn't really have had a worse Coach thrust upon you, could you....a New Zealander coaching Australia ? ! That was never going to work !!"
deans vs tier 1 nations
Boks - 64.3% 9 wins, 5 losses from 14 games
england - 66.7% 4 wins, 2 losses from 6 games
france - 83.3% 5 wins, 1 loss from 6 games
azzuri - 100% 6 wins from 6 games
ireland - 50% 2 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw from 4 games
scotland - 100% 2 wins from 2 games
wales - 88.9% 8 wins, 1 loss from 9 games

won australias 3rd trinations title the hardest international comp in the world outside the RWC and it took him 4 years. before deans wallabies were winning it on average of once every 6 years.

so errrrr to say it was never going to work, yeah i disagree.

as for this little gem,,,
"As for the comments about Australians being stupid.....hmmmm. Well, it's a bit odd coming from New Zealand, put it that way !! "

classic, :o)
did u just say that NZ made those comments, cos that would be odd and stupid. had u said that our rugby imports to england, or maybe our delicious kiwi fruit came from NZ that would be one thing, LMAO, :oP
im just messing with u becs, hope u dont retire like the other becs, :o)

— END OF THREAD —

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