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Australian Rugby in serious decline?

Started by clevermike29 REPLIES1,170 VIEWS· 22 Apr 2018, 11:01
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2018, 11:01
#1
22 Apr 2018, 11:01#1

This must be a disastrous weekend for Australian Rugby - 4 games played and 4 losses.   So  lets look at it from an objective perspective.


*   Waratahs - Lions game         =  Waratahs lost by  29 - 0

*   Reds - Chiefs game              =  Reds lost by         36 - 12

*   Bulls - Rebels game             =  Rebels lost by       28 - 10

*   Brumbies - Jaguares game   =  Brumbies lost by   24 - 20


The problem is that there were two disgustingly poor losses in home games and another marginal loss against a team that is not held in high esteem in Super Rugby.   And another disgusting loss in an away game.  


So what is going to be likely to happen this coming weekend when the Waratahs will be saved from embarrassment because of a bye and another three losses is highly likely in the games between -


*   the Stormers - Rebels;

*   the Reds - Lions;  and

*   the Brumbies - Crusaders


All three could be hug e losses as well.


 
  

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Apr 2018, 11:40
#2
22 Apr 2018, 11:40#2

...notsoclevermike..they are going through bit of a rough patch...

...but very interesting times ahead all the same for Australian rugby...with the Force's billionaire owner planning to go ahead with an alternative competition next year even without Rugby Australia's approval...

...part of his billions are also going into a junior development program so surely some good must come out him throwing so much money into the sport... or will it be a case of a fool and his money are soon parted..

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,255 posts
22 Apr 2018, 12:29
#3
22 Apr 2018, 12:29#3
Australia should also have had 2 teams cut from Super Rugby- making it the Super14. 
They do not have the forward depth for 4 teams, just like South Africa struggle to find the depth for 4 backlines. Too many players are in Europe or Japan for this many teams.
The SA teams are showing an improvement from last year- due to more depth in both the forwards and backs. I expected the SA teams would improve- and many of the games are now in SA for most of the teams for the remainder of the season. The Bulls have clearly benefited from having a coach and a game plan, 
The Stormers appear to be the favourites to finish last in the SA conference. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2018, 12:41
#4
22 Apr 2018, 12:41#4

There is one very foolish team in the competition and that is the Stormers - they could have gotten Mitchell as coach - but Wakefield turned him down.   So hey ended up with Fleck - what a farce.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
22 Apr 2018, 17:24
#5
22 Apr 2018, 17:24#5

The only side that's shown improvement is the Rebels, most people will say that's because the Rebels have added Western Australia (Western Force) on to Melbourne but I think their coaching is better... they are playing reasonably good rugby but need to hone their skills better and if they can cut out stupid errors will be a force to reckon with...I like the way they play...their style is attacking rugby but unfortunately these stupid errors negate some very good moves and don't find the result because it is more often than not that makes a big difference in scores.

The real opposite is the Crusaders who play almost precision rugby...like the Brumbies of old under Gregan ...bar last week but we have discussed that...the weather conditions, the injury list and the improved Sunwolves.

But also bear in mind that League and Aussie Rules drain resources. Yes, I know that's always been a factor but unlike other tier 1 countries that have very little to threaten the union playing pool (you cannot count football as the types that play this come from different make ups) and Grid Iron in USA as this will never be replaced as the American mindset only plays it's own games...a tradition once entrenched is difficult to change...but this is entirely a very different subject.

The Australians are outstanding sportsmen , they will be back given time that's for sure...they are high achievers in virtually all sports...look how well they do in the Games, tennis, cricket, swimming, golf and virtually everything.


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
22 Apr 2018, 18:33
#6
22 Apr 2018, 18:33#6

Another question about Australian rugby...they have a region South Australia that has never produced an international Wallaby...they do play rugby there despite it's dominated by Aussie Rules but it's second division...why I asked my son who lives in Adelaide...you have produced cricketers like Greg and Ian Chapel and ofcourse you have the famous cricket ground in Adelaide but rugby union zero interest. Strange, he says that there was talk about trying to introduce it to Super Series but it had some major drawbacks:

Could Super Rugby work in South Australia?

There was an attempt to establish a rugby league side in Adelaide in the mid-nineties, which failed due to on and off field problems.

The club wasn’t competitive on the park and suffered from financial losses and poor crowd numbers. After the NRL reduced the number of teams in the league, the Adelaide Rams were booted out after just two seasons.

So if the Adelaide Rams were such a failure, then why am I suggesting that we try again, this time with rugby union?

I get the feeling that if a Super Rugby franchise were to be awarded to South Australia, the state would be slightly more prepared than the previous rugby league project.

The possibility of a franchise in a notoriously staunch AFL state is exciting. When the question is raised, the usual South Australian excuses come out like snails after the rain.

Things like: ‘we don’t need another team’ and the ever popular, ‘we don’t have the money’.

So do we need another super rugby franchise in Australia?

The short answer is yes, for the betterment of rugby as a whole.

My frustration is with the ARU and their apparent satisfaction with where they are at the moment regarding their talent pool.

There is no national competition and the vast majority of the current players are born and developed in New South Wales and Queensland.

They may play rugby in Canberra, Melbourne or Perth, but their roots are firmly in the blue and maroon of Australia’s rugby heartland.

There is no doubt that stronger competitions, better coaching and elite rugby in the other states would lead to better players coming out of these areas. This would in turn, lead to a more competitive national side.

What about the argument that there are insufficient elite players in Australia to sustain more teams?

This may be true but it would only be the case initially. South Australia has produced players that have managed to climb to the pinnacle of Australian rugby.

There are historical examples of people venturing out of ‘The Festival State’ in order to wear the green and gold of Australia.

However in the modern game there aren’t many. Women have fared better with three players representing Australia in recent times: Lee Fata was selected in the 2006 15-a-side squad; and D’Arcy Sadler and Bree Nathan were selected for the sevens squad in 2013.

If a franchise was based in Adelaide, then the standard of rugby in the state would lift and the talent pool would grow.

Last year the South Australian Rugby Union (SARU) hosted the Western Force and history was made when Hindmarsh Stadium saw Super Rugby grace its turf for the first time.

A President’s XV lost 42-0 but the score didn’t reflect the competitive nature of the game. Eleven South Australians were joined by players from the state competitions in New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria as well as fringe players from The Force that bolstered the squad.

A week is a long time in politics but in rugby terms it wasn’t enough.

If these players had been able to work together for longer the result could have been different.

The professional attitude of the squad and the coaches showed me that the talent question would be answered very quickly in Adelaide.

Players from South Australia, in particular, Chris Bartlett and Patrick Williams, acquitted themselves well. Part of me wishes that they were born in the eastern States, as they would have received Australian caps by now.

So what about the enthusiasm for rugby in an AFL heartland?

The match was relatively well attended for a wet and cold Friday night, with 3,500 people watching from the impressive western stand of Hindmarsh Stadium, which with a capacity of 17,000 is a perfect size for a secondary sport.

Those players who travelled to Adelaide for the exhibition game showed enthusiasm and when the hypothetical question of making a living playing rugby in the City of Churches was raised, the response was positive.

The training facilities would need to be decided, but SARU could follow the Melbourne Rebels’ example and strike a deal with one of the AFL clubs to use theirs. So the foundations for rugby are there at a player and infrastructure level.

So, onto the subject of money. There seems to be an obsession with Australian sport being government funded.

What sport needs is a financial backer with enough money not to care if they lose it. (I would suggest Gina Rinehart but she strikes me as the kind of person that would know if her kids took $2 out of the change jar).

Sporting clubs need to move away from the Federal teat and start looking to private enterprise to fund the ever-increasing expenses of professional sport.

The Super Rugby competition is played across three countries and two continents – three if you count the recent game played in London – and the amount of money that would be required for the travel and accommodation for teams and management would give Wayne Swan a reaction similar to being trapped in an elevator with Joe Hockey.

The Western Force and Melbourne Rebels have shown that it is possible for rugby to succeed in non-traditional states but financially it is tough.

There is no dispute regarding that. Without a financial backer with more money than sense, there is little chance of top-level rugby in South Australia.

A lot of water needs to run under a lot of bridges and a lot of ducks need to line-up, but this shouldn’t be a pipe dream.

The ARU needs to look outside of the safe states and push rugby development in the minority states.

If not, there could be future superstars lost due to limited opportunities. SARU does impressive work in identifying talent and creating pathways towards elite rugby.

However, they are hamstrung by the lack of elite level rugby in South Australia.

This means that talented youngsters have to move east or west in order to progress in their rugby careers – a costly exercise both financially and emotionally for parents, as their children have to move interstate at sixteen years old.

Elite rugby in South Australia would create a goal for the next generation of rugby players without having to move halfway across the country.

The increased higher-level participation would lead to the next generation of Rugby World Cup and Rugby Championship winners, and hopefully a new generation of South Australian Wallabies.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2018, 21:12
#7
22 Apr 2018, 21:12#7
Australia has a pipeline into Polynesian talent....the best natural rugby playing talent pool. They will be fine. We have been through these Australian rugby is dead hysterics before.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Apr 2018, 21:47
#8
22 Apr 2018, 21:47#8

..sebeastial no questioning the Aussies are competitive but virtually all the sports you have listed them being good at are individual sports....and in terms of their recent success some might say they have excelled over many years through the clever targeting of eastern european athletes with their astute immigration policy....

...also assisted by their ability to throw a lot of money and resources at their sportsmen /women which is a big advantage, whereas other countries athletes will struggle on next to no govt support and on a shoestring budget.. btw the validity of having 50 different swimming events is being seriously questioned after another three more were added for those last games...

...my point is a country may excel in individual sporting events with a heap of individually brilliant sports people they've imported but teamsports can be a different story where people have to operate in a cohesive group ...and rugby is a team sport....

... look at how individually brilliant the Brazilian football players are and were favourites to win the last WC,  only to be thrashed by the Germans scoring seven goals...so you can have the most talented people and still fail without cohesiveness...

Added to the challenges Australians face is their ethnic diversity that complicate the group dynamic...their are challenges related to  commitment for example - we had a situation in NZ when the Tongans league boys broke away and decided they would rather play for Tonga right before a WC even after being born in NZ and playing for NZ... that is their perogative but Australia will face the same sort of commitment and reliability issues with their Polynesian players... which can be problematic if the team is predominately made up of them and they all decide to jump ship at the same time...

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2018, 01:34
#9
23 Apr 2018, 01:34#9

Seb

In the recent Commonwealth Games the Aussies did extremely well and their participants  are to be admired for that,

However, most of their medals were won in the absence of real compet ion from the athletes on the world scene ie from countries outside of the Commonwealth.  

In some cases – like long distance running and track events they never came near to medal level,   They have perhaps one male swimmer that would be competitive against top class swimmers worldwide  and a few fenales – otherwise the cupboard is fairly empty,

However, that is not the topic here = what is relates to rugby.  Australia produced in the past excellent players and teams – but that is not the case anymore.   They perhaps have one or two players that would really be regarded as world class (Folau and Pocock for instance), the rest or not really top class.

Maybe it is a phase they are going through – for the sake of rugby  one should hope it is.       


3K
3ku1Pro2,580 posts
23 Apr 2018, 07:28
#10
23 Apr 2018, 07:28#10

They might hav a chance if they only had one Super side. And had all their best players in one team haha. I don't think them having pure polynesian talent means anything.They hav lost 35 in a row to kiwi sides.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Apr 2018, 08:23
#11
23 Apr 2018, 08:23#11

Oz rugby is not in serous decline.

Personally we should worry about our own rugby. The worlds best up until isolation we are now struggling. We have so many hindrances to performances its a wonder we survive. Our huge depth has been eroded by having 300 plus professionals overseas.

As for the kiwis they need to scrap the Blues as no doubt Cloudy will agree!

Ou maaaaikie Wakefield is a disaster, The Stormers has Mallet and Rassie walk out - says it all!



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Apr 2018, 09:55
#12
23 Apr 2018, 09:55#12

Beeno

I think you have missed out on one issue.  We had with the exception of perhaps Christie and White as to forward coaching and the out-of-date old game plan/system and Du Plessis in respect of comprehensive rugby - had a string of dud coaches the worst of which was Meyer, Coetzee and Snorre,  

The lack of a comprehensive game plan is killing Springbok performances and then we have stupid selections as well.   It is more detrimental to SA performances than anything else.   In plain English - we have the potential players, but their usage is atrocious.      

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 10:03
#13
23 Apr 2018, 10:03#13

Cloudy, Beeno would like SA to only have one franchise like Argentina does and that franchise would still be based in Cape Town without a name change but the new " Stormers  would be made up with the cream of Sharks, Lions ,Bulls, Cheetahs and Kings players...afterall the mentality of Cape Townians is, nothing really exists beyond the Hex River mountains...then Beeno could blow hard every game with a certain amount of confidence and he would not have to book a tennis court ( or attend conferences every time the Stormers play)...LOL and Bahahahahahaha.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
23 Apr 2018, 12:58
#14
23 Apr 2018, 12:58#14
Cloudy, the abundance of NZ supporters in Cape Town is mostly to do with politics. Many Bok and rugby supporters in the coloured community were alienated  by the old apartheid government, hence them supporting the best alternative, the AB's. The Cape has the largest coloured community in SA, which is why it is a specific trend there. There is very little interest in rugby within the black segment of the SA population, so neither the Boks or the AB's are of much interest to them. The rest of the countries rugby supporters are predominantly white, and they still support the Boks. Even though that has been tough to do lately. 
As for Cape Town, beautiful city! It is the closest thing that Africa, never mind South Africa, has to a first world city. Endless things to do and see, from Art, to w ine (or WHINE in Beeno's case), to architecture, to the most beautiful views and scenery, to surfing and fine dining, night life etc etc. My advice would be not to fall into the trap of visiting the "real" Cape Town and going to the townships etc. You may feel like you are experiencing the place holistically, but the reality is, they are dangerous places and its best to stay away. Squalor is squalor, no matter where it is in the world.    
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 13:56
#15
23 Apr 2018, 13:56#15

Cloudy, the best places to visit in Cape Town and nearby(and stay for a day or two) are Stellenbosch, Somerset West/Gordon's Bay, Simonstown/ Boulders/St James/Hout Bay, Kirstenbosch Gardens, a hike up to Table Mountain via Skele ton Gorge (a favourite of Field Marshall Jan Smuts),Alphen,Constantia,  West Coast, Langebaan, Clanwilliam, Lamberts Bay, Cedarberg area, Tulbagh, Ceres, Hermanus, Gansbaai, Hangklip, Pringle Bay, Arniston, Elgin/Grabouw/HouHoek Inn are all must sees.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 14:11
#16
23 Apr 2018, 14:11#16

I might add Rooi Krans (Cape Point Nature Reserve) a steep climb down to the ledges if you are fit, Franshoek (beween Stellenbosch (Banhoek valley) and Paarl, Du Toits Kloof, Clifton, Camps Bay, Llandudno, Sandy Bay, Wellington (Bains Kloof).

West Coast...Darling, Elands Bay, Saldahna Bay, Vredenburg, Vredendal.

These are are a bit out of order...if you like I could redo them in order but you can ask around and get directions, guidance and maps but these will give glory to the Cape which is truly very beautiful.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 14:50
#17
23 Apr 2018, 14:50#17

Nothing much to see except if you go North/East to Dullstroom area in Mpumalanga and ofcourse the Kruger National Park.

In KZN, the North Coast up to Sordwana, forget the South Coast up to Southbroom, Marina Beach, Glenmore, Port Edward.

Then Transkei...Port St Johns, Hole-in- the- Wall, Mazeppa Bay, Ciskei...Kei Mouth and Morgans bay ( a favourite) William and Harry played darts there with the locals at the hotel pub, when they were raising funds by touring in scrambler bikes,skip East London and Port Elizabeth...go to Jeffreys Bay, Tsitsikamma, Keurbooms, Plettenberg Bay, Robberg Point, Knysna, (lots to see there) Belvedere, the Heads, Leisure Island, Knoetsie, Brenton On Sea...then hug the coast...everythings nice, except George but Victoria Bay, then Wilderness and pass Ol' Maaikie () in Riverdal and on to Stilbaai...then Arniston Agulhas...the rest...the Cape Town trip.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Apr 2018, 17:53
#18
23 Apr 2018, 17:53#18

Clouds, I don't want to be too critical of JHB, but it's not exactly a tourist attraction. Kruger Park is super, as is our whole coastline.  Prepare yourself for being crowded by many people, especially if you are visiting  Cape Town and Jo'Burg. Not nearly the same as a rural island environment...I guess  Auckland on steroids??

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Apr 2018, 17:57
#19
23 Apr 2018, 17:57#19

PS, only the population of Cape Town and surrounding atea is almost 4 M. Jo'Burg even more. That's almost the whole NZ population. Still nothing compared to the bigger European cities though.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 18:20
#20
23 Apr 2018, 18:20#20

Another thing when driving in Johannesburg, Durban, Pietermaritzbug, Cape Town and suburbs or any other built up areas, doors locked, windows up and never leave bags, smart/cell phones, laptops, tablets or any other valuables exposed in vehicles, even whilst driving . When in traffic at robots and stop streets and intersections always make sure that you have plenty of space to either turn around and if bumped don't get out but drive to nearest help and police station and never leave your keys in the car if your see a pamphlet or any article stuck to your back window, rather drive off and take it off when it's safe to do so.

On free ways and open roads keep away from minibuses/taxis and heavy duty trucks and never drive in clusters rather keep away from those that drive up your arse and let them go and even heavies move at high speeds, let them go and enjoy your trip.

It may sound like overkill but it could save your life, rather take your time, drive at reasonable speed 100 kph you enjoy your drive and take in awesome scenery and arrive unstressed.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
23 Apr 2018, 18:35
#21
23 Apr 2018, 18:35#21

Australian rugby is in bad shape. SR was launched to sustain AU rugby and it fails at it. AU rugby might recover but it will be hard.

Over the professional years, AU rugby was much more a contender to NZ rugby than SA rugby was, NZ would prefer a weak AU rugby as SA rugby is nothing of a threat and still brings money as SA NZ games have not lost all financial value yet.  Games against SA are easy money for NZ.

Another hurdle, SA rugby is in terminal condition and as such, focus SR aid on it at the expense of AU rugby, which would require the type of favoured treatment given to SA. SR is too small though to afford boosting more than one rugby at a time.

Another reason to hear SA rugby death throes and unplug it. It will help saving AU rugby, a much deserving rugby over the professional years.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
23 Apr 2018, 18:41
#22
23 Apr 2018, 18:41#22

Cloudy, the abundance of NZ supporters in Cape Town is mostly to do with politics. Many Bok and rugby supporters in the coloured community were alienated  by the old apartheid government, hence them supporting the best alternative, the AB's. The Cape has the largest coloured community in SA, which is why it is a specific trend there. There is very little interest in rugby within the black segment of the SA population, so neither the Boks or the AB's are of much interest to them.


When the past is no longer the past. In certain cases, mentioning a legacy from the past is forbidden, the past is over, time to move on.

In this case, though, the situation is explained by a legacy from the past.

Time to make up one's mind: either there is a legacy or there is not.

On this board, the general opinion is that there is no legacy, time to move on.

SA quota people should support the SA side. They do not. It can not be explained by the past. Other explanation then.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Apr 2018, 18:52
#23
23 Apr 2018, 18:52#23

Oh fck, where the hell are you from, certainly not SA, you cant be from here and be that daft??

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2018, 19:13
#24
23 Apr 2018, 19:13#24
Don't forget Bird World and La Colombe, a world class restaurant without the arrogance.
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
23 Apr 2018, 19:47
#25
23 Apr 2018, 19:47#25

Oh fck, where the hell are you from, certainly not SA, you cant be from here and be that daft??


From a place people commonly can count up to seven. And this without using their fingers.

Instead of spending so much on rugby, maybe time for tthe SA government to spend on getting people to do the same.

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 20:15
#26
23 Apr 2018, 20:15#26
LA COLOMBE RESTAURANT

Sounds good Moz...have not been but will when in Cape Town...is this at the top of Constantia Nek...there used to be an older restaurant there where the food was good and if I remember...wining and dining with a dance band but this is obviously new or renovated because I don't recognise it...I remember the old place being made out of logs/wood but this could be another.

One customers (local guide) review said this:


Local Guide?·?76 reviews?·?186 photos2 months agoI very rarely give anyone 5 stars. You have to be really outstanding to get that. With La Colombe there should actually be 7 stars.

With no doubt in my mind I can say that this was the very best eating experience of my life. The venue was amazingly perched on the side of a mountain, the staff were incredibly friendly and removed any ounce of pretentious notions, and finally the food.... no words can describe the delacacy and presentation. The love and attention that the chef put into was clearly present, and it came across as a performance.

And the surprise was incredible and highly entertaining.

If you are in Cape Town, this is definitely a required visit.


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
23 Apr 2018, 20:20
#27
23 Apr 2018, 20:20#27

"From a place people commonly can count up to seven. And this without using their fingers."


Showing your true colors now arsehole. Take that chip o ff your shoulder, chop it up and have a braai. It ain't good for anything else. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2018, 20:34
#28
23 Apr 2018, 20:34#28
Seb it's near Buitenverwachting in Constantia
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Apr 2018, 20:35
#29
23 Apr 2018, 20:35#29
Seb it's near Buitenverwachting in Constantia
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Apr 2018, 21:04
#30
23 Apr 2018, 21:04#30

OK thanks.

As a matter of interest;

I see Nelson's Eye (next to the Mt Nelson) is still operating...used to go there quite often many years ago...Karl used to run it and it was the 2nd best steakhouse in Cape Town, the 1st was the Black Angus in Seapoint when that crazy Italian with the white Jaguar, Renaldo used to run and own it...it was the best steak I've ever eaten by a country mile...he never took bookings...you had to queque to get in and wait your turn but he was so good that people were prepared to do this.I think he got his steak from Rhodesia but we never found out the phantom supplier.

That was a long time ago...must be 1977...it's not there obviously and he must be dead now.

I now see that there is a new Dale's Black Angus in Milnerton, a customer wrote on review:

Reviewed 18 September 2017 via mobile The best steak ever? Indeed!

I well remember the old Black Angus steakhouse in Sea Point in the eighties, and how the newspapers called their Carpetbagger the best steak in the city. While Dale's place might share only a name with them, we feel that the moniker of the city's best steak has found a new home. On the menu they calls it the Special Reserve 21, subtitled The Best Steak you will ever have. Well, I must confess that the price was the most we have ever paid for a single dish, but wow!, was it ever worth it. We cannot recommend it highly enough, and when compared to some of the more hoity-toity places in Cape Town, the prices really wasn't so bad.

PS A joke about the Black Angus Restaurant...some guy wrote in about the wonderful RUMP steaks there but left out the G in Angus in error...LOL...Bahahahahahahahaha

CC's type of humour.


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