Average Age of Springboks playingg in 2012 compared to 2018

There has been numerous differences of opinion about  te age and experience of players in the Meyer era compared to the present coach.   The only way out is to look at a specific test  in 2012 compared to the similar one  in 2018.

For that reason I decided to help clear the air and look at the –

*     the Springboks playing the All Blacks  in SA  in 2012; and

*     the Springboks playing the All Blacks  in SA  in 2018.

The basic findings were as follows:-

Total Team Age

2012         =      411 years

2018         =      393 years

Average Age of Players

2012          =     27,4

2018          =    26,2

Age distribution

2012          =     30+        =   4 players

                           25 – 29  =   9 players

                           24 -        =    2 players

2018           =     30+        =    1 players

                           25 – 29  =    9 players

                           24 -        =    5 players

The above is reported in an effort to clear the air and avoid further disagreements on the issue.  

I already posted all of the details a few weeks ago. So clearly these things are never clear enough. 

Dupli cation 

AO

Sorry the info posted by you were ineffective and wrong and I checked to make sure the correct age info is provided.  

You grabbed figures out of the sky and then claimed the average age of Meyer's teams was lower than the average age of the team coached by Erasmus.   Not wise because every claim made by you have thus far been wrong and needed serious correction.   Part of the problem was that after the AB test in 2012 which I compared with the one of 2018, Meyer started with his campaign to get retired players back to play and that impacted negatively and  ended up a total fiasco from November 2014 to September 2015.   

Mozart is likely to agree since less  than three years later the average age increased to 29,7 years according to his own  calculation.   

Mozart

Sure you are correct - but nobody  disputes what the prime playing years of players are between 25 and 29 years  - so the average age of world cup winning teams should be in the same range. 

However, there is another issue - the average age of both the All Blacks and Springboks squads were outside of the winning range indicated by you - so the 2015 WC was different from the figures provided by you.   In that case if you look at the factual situation the only difference in the squads of the two teams was that the Springboks ended up an  average age  of more than one year above the AB's.    

Sudden silence by both AO on this issue.   Vey funny indeed. 

It becomes a bore having to repeat the same topics. I already dealt with this on the 6th of this month. I'll just post what I said in that thread here, seeing as you are insistent on a response.

HEINEKE MEYER

In 2012, Meyer inherited a team that lost Smit, Schalk, Matfield, Bakkies, Dani, Fourie, Du Preez and Butch. He lost legends of Bok rugby before a single test was played.

His first team featured 4 debutants. Two of those were a new lock pair. There were no clear leaders, and there was much debate at the time, with many questioning the selection of Jean. Even more were pushing for Josh Strauss to be elevated to the starting XV and as captain.

The starting XV had 458 caps. Jean and Habana alone accounted for 146 of them. In fact, if you take the four most experienced players out of the equation, the team had 218 caps worth of experience. Of the more experienced players, some were never Bok regulars. Olivier with 34 caps, Frans with 47, Ruan with 51. As it was, 11 players were under 20 caps. 

Meyer would go on to give even more debuts to Taute, Goosen, Cilliers, Potgieter, Liebenberg, Duane, Jantjies. This was all in 2012.

2013: Meyer blooded JJ, Serfontein, Botha, Nyakane, Vermaak, Kolisi, van Zyl, Willie, Franco van der Merwe, Malherbe, Steph and Adriaanse.

2014: Meyer blooded Hendricks, Pollard, Marcel van der Merwe, Mohoje, Boshoff, Lewies, Lood, Damian, Whiteley, Reinach and Carr.

2015: Meyer blooded Kriel, Koch, Mapoe and Paige.

So, that's 11 new caps in 2012, 12 in 2013, 11 in 2013 and 4 in 2015. We can clearly ascertain that Meyer built depth into the Boks squad by introducing a steady stream of youngsters. Many failed to reward his faith, or would only come good a couple of years later, such as Steph and Malherbe. Either way, he introduced many players Coetzee and Rassie would rely upon much later on. 

RASSIE ERASMUS

He was able to draw upon the personnel introduced and settled by both Meyer and Coetzee. By the very first RC test, he had a starting XV of 438 test caps. 

The average age of Rassie's starting XV for the first RC test was 26.8. The average age of Meyer's very first test starting XV was 26.1. The average age of Meyer's starting XV for his very first RC test was 26.6. 

AGE BEFORE YOUTH 

Where did Meyer suppress the emergence of a youngster? He started with Habana and Pietersen, a successful World Cup duo. He would later trial Mvovo a few tests later. Then Hougaard. Then Basson. Then Willie. None truly stuck until Hendricks. Though he did have some defensive lapses, he was a devastating attacker. He was ultimately ruled out after being diagnosed with a rare heart defect. He wasn't able to work his way into the team by the time the World Cup came around. 

LOCK: Meyer started his tenure with Kruger and Eben at lock. Both debutants. Kruger failed. They were given the England series to settle down. The 28 year old Bekker, who was heralded as the best lock in the world, began the Puma tests in Newlands and Mendoza. He too failed. His perform was so bad that he was lambasted by South Africa's media. Some called it the worst lock performce they'd ever seen. He would later suffer an injury and play 3 tests before he went to Japan. He never made an appearance again, and even stated in 2012 that he'd never be able to fill Victor's shoes, conceding that he played poorly. Kruger would play the remainder of the season, being partnered by Flip and Eben. Bekker would replace him for the final three RC tests. Other additions would include Victor, Lood and Steph. Victor dramatically improved our very poor restarts and bolstered our lineout. Steph would never live up to the hype and was often injured. Lood had the most success, but also struggled in big games. Overall, our locks relied upon a pool of players 27 years or younger. Victor was the notable exception, and the only regular over 30. Bakkies started 3 tests, 6 as a reserve. He never featured after the 2014 England test.

LOOSIES: Our loose forwards were Coetzee, Alberts and Spies. Spies and Alberts were the old men at 27 and 28 years. Coetzee was 21. After what was lauded as a highly successful Super rugby campaign, Coetzee debuted with great expectation. He would start 6 consecutive tests before being replaced by 28 year old Louw. He never did live up to the hype and had a poor England series. Coetzee would play at varying points again, but never could step up when the team needed him. 2014 was a particular disappointment, punctuated by an ineffective EOYT. Meyer would call on Brussow in the RC, but Meyer's clear preference was Louw. Schalk played 8 until Duane returned from injury. Alberts never retained his place after his injury troubles. Noone else was to challenge the mainstays.

FRONT ROW: Our front row consistently featured Beast, Bissie, Jannie and Strauss. We tried many tightheads with varying degrees of success. Noone could oust Jannie out of the starting berth. Steenkamp had a successful run, but never truly looked like overtaking Beast. Malherbe was underwhelming at best. 

CENTRE: Centre was quite the conundrum. Meyer trialed many players and all newcomers failed. Damian, Kriel, Serfontein, Taute and JJ were the dishonorable mentions. All were defensively suspect and failed to generate the attacking play they were highly acclaimed for. Jean was our most successful and longest serving centre and captain. He presided over the successful 2013 team. He would ultimately be replaced by Damian in the World Cup and his absence was greatly felt. JP had a stint at 13 and is, alongside Fourie and Jean, statistically our most successful player at 13 under Meyer. That said, he didn't last long there before making way for the failed JJ. Serfontein did a job at 13, but never made an appearance again once Kriel debuted at 13. The younger replacements were a failure. Of the new gen players, Serfontein looked the most promising. How sad it was that he never had a chance to play in the World Cup. 

HALFBACKS: Meyer dropped Morné for Goosen part of the way through the RC, which was a failure. Meyer then turned to Lambie, who failed. Morné was brought back into the squad and starting XV in 2013 and formed a fantastic partnership with Ruan in a free scoring campaign where he was the key trigger man. He was dropped in 2014 for Pollard. This was successful. However, Meyer would later drop Pollard for Lambie, which failed spectacularly. Morné would never feature prominently again under Meyer. No other 10 made an impression. At scrumhalf, he tried Hougaard first, then Pienaar. Neither really delivered. Reinach was given a run and was the worst performing scrumhalf since Januarie's howlers in the twilight of his career. Du Preez handily outplayed all of them. No other nine did anything of note. 

WING: Habana was always our premier wing under Meyer. Pietersen was successful in the England series of 2012, looking rejuvenated. He would feature sparingly at wing until he returned again in 2015 to reclaim the no. 14 jersey for the World Cup. He was successful. Other notable wings were Hendricks and Willie. Both were successful, the former losing his place due to serious health concern and the latter moving to fullback. Basson failed to replicate his successful Super rugby form. No other wings made an impression.

FULLBACK: Kirchner had a patchy 2012 season, but a very successful 2013 season. He was one of the foremost catalysts for attacking play throughout 2013 and outplayed his RC counterparts. Willie later owned the jersey, but was horribly out of sorts in the WC, making scores of errors. Lambie was another viable alternative, and Goosen did feature. Noone could match the playmaking ability of Willie, who was clearly the best fullback in SA. Certainly the most creative. Noone else could match what Willie, Zane or Lambie brought. Too bad the latter was repeatedly tried at 10, with no degree of success.

There we have it. Meyer went to youth first. Victor, Schalk, JP, Du Preez, Fourie, Bakkies were the primary "old guard" Meyer brought back into the fold. Bakkies was only a starter in 3 tests: 1 in 2013 and 2 early in 2014. Youth replaced him. Victor was vying with Lood for a starting spot. In the end they were rotated. Lood never lived up to the hype in big games and Steph was never a factor at flank or lock. Jean was the consistent old man at centre, but was replaced by the unsuccessful Damian. Schalk was one of the best Boks of 2015. Victor was never quite at his very best, but contributed well, adding depth at the very least and excellent work rate. Our halfbacks were youthful, and we trialled many young back three players. Most of the newbies failed, but some still contribute to this day. 

Its not just about age innit ?More about caps and how well that body has aged ,better to sort a teams age into bands like say 20-25 26-30 and up.

Wardad

My problem all along is that to my mind the prime performance age of rugby players lies between the ages of 25 and 29.

In most cases decline sets in a roundabout age of 30 - even though some players showed decline even earlier.   After that  age -

*   there are signs of declining performance: and

*   often enough more frequent injuries that takes longer to heal.

Personally that problem is encountered in most players - even the great Dan Carter and McCaw were poorer performers when they were 33 than they were at 30.   NZ supporters would say that is lese majeste - but I think there is real proof in both cases.   If it happens in their case - it is all the more evident in lesser players,  Another present example is SBW - so hang me for making that remark. 

However, some players last longer and declining performance is less noticeable in such players than in others in the same age group.  

In SA the situation reached major proportions since Meyer made a farce of player development and constantly ran back to the elderly player selections until he got burned.    There are some site members who never realized the problem and find all kinds of   excuses to cover up for the poor selection strategies of Meyer.          

The older players you attack kept the team competitive. Many of those who failed were players you wanted. This has nothing to do with age, this is juts an excuse to attack Meyer. A flimsy one which has been repeatedly debunked. You keep retelling the same errors and lies. 

No AO

It was no attack on Meyer - it was rather in response to the following  erroneous information provided by you  in the following paragraph:-

"The average age of Rassie's starting XV for the first RC test was 26.8. The average age of Meyer's very first test starting XV was 26.1. The average age of Meyer's starting XV for his very first RC test was 26.6."

All figures were not real and a joke in fact. That is not the first time you come up with fictional figures relating to average ages of players - in the Japan test it was totally wron g and even Mozart indicated that it was,

For the rest you mentioned new players selected by Meyer each year - but there is a problem as well in that case.   How many of the new players ended up with more than 3 tests under Meyer?   It was like a que of new players replacing each other with regularity.

The latter was the main problem with Meyer - he would pick new players and then ran back to the elderly and with rare exceptions they were useless.   He failed to see their deficiencies  -  fact is even players like Bakkies Botha and Gurthro Steenkamp decided to quit rather than continuing to let the team down.   In most cases Meyer was forced to replace the elderly who failed consistently - but some last through to the WC squad claiming he knew what they were capable of in the past - forgetting when that past was.

Fact is that Meyer ended up with 17 over the age players in the WC squad in 2015.   Some players were real failures in the WC or out with injuries which forced Meyer to bring in rookies in the WC tests.

Other than some loyal supporters everybody realize that the Meyer selection situation would leave voids in the squad in future and it did. 

Meyer wanted first Matfield as captain - followed by an attempt to get Fourie du Preez as captain.   When both declined he selected De Villiers as captain.   I do not think anybody wanted Strauss as captain.    

By the way most of the players you claimed were failures were only failures because you think they were,  in actual fact were not failures. And most of the players you claim were top performers were in fact failures,   One of the worst examples were Matfield - who was acceptable in line-outs - even though there were critical failures as well - and for the rest mildly put useless.    I always have reason to doubt your player assessments since in most cases it is far removed from reality and entirely based on prejudice.  

Maccaw and DC played superbly throughout the RWC as did Ma'a Nonu among others .I would still back them to do the business even today ,Nonu especially.

Nonu was not really a resounded success with Toulon and they released him from his contract early - would not do so if he was good enough,  

I never said that McCaw and Carter became useless - I said they were not at the age of 33 as good as they used to be at 30,   Take one example - at 30 McCaw rarely gave away penalties and got carded.  Reason he lost some pace and what he used to do at 33 was juts a bit slower than it was at 30.

Mozart

One match do not determine the trend in player performances.   Any flyhalf would look good when they have a surfeit of possession and more so if the game plan (?) used by Meyer allowed for more chances of opposition players to succeed.

Talking about actual rugby players and not opinion surveys.   if you read carefully enough I never said either McCaw nor Carter  was not fit  to play - I compared their performances between what it was at age 33  and what it was at age 30.

So the issue deals with PERFORMANCE and decline due to age.  

In the SA case the situation was hopeless in the WC - because of deficiencies in Meyer's selections most of the oldies ended up not being used or minimally used.   Those include De Villiers, Matfield, Kirchner, Pienaar, Steyn and Alberts - some due to injury - others because they were really useless and should not have been selected in the first place.  Other under-performers in the 2015 WC included Bismarck, Burger, Habana and Pietersen.

Your support of players based on age and reputation without regard to performance have been  repeatedly shown up as really destructive.  

He merely lists random names. Take Kirchner for example, one of those who was "detrimental" to the Bok cause against Japan, but look...

1. Pass: 5
   
2. Run: 9
3. Metres Run: 81
4. Clean Breaks: 1
5. Dedenders Beaten: 3
6. Offloads: 2