Backline Attacking Play crisis- all creatine but no brains

Since the modern era we have lots of creatine heads playing at center.

When I started watching rugby around 1992 their was Danie Gerber playing at the the twighlight of his career. He seemed like a much smarter and creative player than the creatine live in the gym centers of this era.

Even past his best he was much better than what we have now. 

It seems before the professional era that backline players were intelligent people working in various professional jobs such as lawyers, doctors etc.

Now days we have players that live in the gym for strength training, and do not seem to do much mental or skills training. Our centres seem more like loose forwards trying to crash ball over the advantage line than about creating space.

Are we cursed with Crush Ball Dumbies at center, that starve our world quality wings like JP and Habana of possesion for ever?

 Some brains in the backline play- 1986-   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJsB-OL730

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIEeddJwVj8

My late father - always a rugby supporter throughout his life - named my brother Ferdie after the Springbok wing Ferdie Berg.  He always had two sayings that he believes in sincerely, namely -

*    that players should have ball sense - in other words they should be clever players who knows instinctively where to go to be more effective; and

*    that a Springbok backline without a Jewish player is not really acceptable - because he thought Jewish players were clever players.

Those remarks preceeded the Danie Gerber era by a couple of decades - but they dealrt with one thing that Gerber had in abundance - namely ball sense.   

You are 100% correct about the issue of center play.   I said ti before and I say it again and that is the idea is that centers nowadays are basically selected because of the bulk issue.  The heavier the better.   Creative players are not acceptable since they generally do not meet the size requirement.   That is where players like O'Driscoll and Conrad Smith of the modern era are different - they are smallish and cleverer players than the biggies with minimal ball sense and skills. 

Over the last sixry years our top centers were all smallish guys with massive ball sense - but that ideal was replaced when the size issue took over in the early 1990's

If they cannot find a player that does not meet the SIZE requirement - they have to invent one.    We had the past year two examples that I want to refer to as something that has gone awry:-

J P Pietersen

Since 2007 Pietersen was always regarded as one of the top wings in the world.   A requirement  for a wing is entirely different from those for a center.   A wing can allow for rwo major issues - speed and strength in running - whilst the center requirements relates to ball skills and sense as well.   In the early 2012 Super Series games Plumtree decided to use Pietersen as a center.   From a top class wing - Pietersen became a very average center.   The Sharks backline became totally ineffective and the early games of the Super series was a rank disaster for them.  

As a result Plumtree decided that the moving of Piettersen to center was not so clever an idea after all and he moved him back to wing and brought in a 20 year-old rookie - Paul Jordaan - at 13.   Jordaan is smallish in size - tough as nails - but with some huge advantages.   He is very speedy with a very clever natural rugby brain.  The turnaround in backline play he played a part in was a major reason why the Sharks ultimately made it to the final.   In the latter final he was moved to 12 and Pietersen to 13.   Jordaan played opposite SBW and had a very good game - whilst Pietersen at 13 showed very little of substance.

Yet on this Board there are still people who believe that the size issue is paramount and who insist - despite all the statistics to the contrary - that Pietersen at 13 was a success.   There is one lucky outcome from all of this - and that is Plumtree will not make the same foolish mistake by experimenting with Pietersen at 13 again    Once bitten - twice shy.

Taute

When studying Taute's adult career as a player - I was in fact astonished to see that he played in total 68 games since 2009 on the following basis:-

  *    Golden Lions on CC level     -      34 games

  *    Lions on Super 15 level        -      30 games

  *    Springboks                            -        4 games

There was one thing that stood out and that was that up to 2012 he never played at center for any of the teams mentioned.   Taute was a star full back and was nominated as player of the year in 2011 whilst playing at full back.   He started off in 2012 at full back - played there for 5 games.  In early 2012 Super series Doppies la Grange and Hollenbach - the top two centers of the Lions - were both injured and the Lions was in a mess.   They consequently decided to move Taute from full back to center.

Taute met the bulk requirement  and he played at center for 3 games and was then injured and did not play for the rest of the Super series.   Although he performed reasonably well at center - he was never on the level he played at full back - and the outcome of the move can be questioned on that basis.

Come the Championship and Meyer was faced with a real problem after the injury to Francois Steyn.   Because of Taute's bulk, his reasonable performances at center for the 3 games he played for the Lions in that position and the general shortage of 13's with the necessary bulk requirements Meyer considered as necessary - he picked Taute at 13 for the Springboks in the later games of the Championship and the latter came off the bench once and started in 2 games in the Championship.    He had a good game in the Pretoria test and a very poor one in the Soweto test.   As a result Meyer realized the mistake made by playing Taute at center - when the EOYT squad was selected, Taute was selected as a full back and not center.   It soon dawned on Meyer that he messed up badly with his squad selection and he only had two usable centers in the squad.   He then reverted back to Taute at 13.   As a result of the Irish test - where Taute showed very little at 13 - Meyer then was forced to play De Jongh at 13 in the remaining two tests.   De Jongh - a much smaller player -  unfortunately does not possess the necessary ball sense to off-set his small size and the result was nothing to write home about.

Taute then signed in agreement with the Stormers.   Bearing in mind his past history - he himself indtcated that he wants to play at full back in future - yet there are still people around that wants to see him playing at center.   Taute has one advantage at full back - he is a strong runner and with more time available - he can underastnd what to do to be really effective - a luxury he does not have at 13.   

Present Centers

The two names constantly mentioned are De Villiers and Francois Steyn.  De Villiers in his early playing career was very good - he showed massive ball sense as a younger player and had speed as a major asset.   As a result of the game plan - he has lost quite a lot since his early days and is nowadays much more of a crash ball player showing in reality not much else.   Francois Steyn started his adult playing career at full back - but in the WC in 2007 he was moved to 12 when De Villiers got injured  early.   He was very average at 12 - with one notable exception.   In the final he did not tackle his opponent - and the result was he POMS neartly scored a try that could have put us out of the WC.   Since 2007 Steyn constantly played at 12.   He has very little ball sense and used strength only to try and effect line breaks.   It is rarely successful - and a further problem is he cannot off-load balls effectively in tackle situations and he does not create space for other players to run into - an essential insofar as an inside center is concerned.   Since 2007 he bulked up further and lost some speed in the process - as a result he is slower than he used to be off the mark and can more eeasily be contained.

As you mentioned - we might as well under present circumstances move a loosie to center - they will be just as ineffective as our present centers are.   This problem is compunded by the lack of real backline coaching and the emphasis on strategic kicking and crashballing associated with the present game plan.   

In essence we should change the strategy and come up with two issues - namely -

*   the selection of players with real ball sense and playing ability at center - size not being the only criteria; and

*  the upgrading of ball skills and more effective backline play through proper coaching                

Gentlemen you two need some serious staightening out. 

Unfortuntaley for you the bok backline shows no sign of being creatine laden!! Our half backs of Pienaar and Lambie are not big. De Jong at 87 kg is small by modern standards - and I dont just mean Bok standards I mean world standards. Neither is Hougaard on the wing a big player. Jean is 100 kg which is about par for the course at center these days and JP at 102 kg is a big wing. Kirchner at 96 kg is about average.

Your idea that the Bok backlinee is creatine laden is total rubbish. Its NOT that our backline is too big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It s that it is not creativ enough and our mindset is not conducive to backline play. These are the major issues. We have seen in three instances that where we appoint a decent backline coach our backlines tend to thrive. Todd Louden  re the bulle, Campo re the Sharks and Eddie Jones re the Boks. To try and sugges that its becasue we are playing huge pumped up backline palyer is to entirely miss the point!!!!!!!!!!!

In addition to the above, I think is you really want to run the ball more you might have to bring in a pacy number 8? Possibly Marcell Coetzee.

Brian O'Driscoll weighs 93 kg. Acceptable for a center. Conrad is 95 kg. These are players above the 90 kg benchmark set by none other than Saffex. Even your examples are way out!!

My late father - always a rugby supporter throughout his life - named my brother Ferdie after the Springbok wing Ferdie Berg.  He always had two sayings that he believes in sincerely, namely -

*    that players should have ball sense - in other words they should be clever players who knows instinctively where to go to be more effective; and

*    that a Springbok backline without a Jewish player is not really acceptable - because he thought Jewish players were clever players.

All very well and good Mike but what makes you think these things are reserved for small players. Modern backline prove the contrary all over the world with small players being the exception that PROVES the rule.

Those remarks preceeded the Danie Gerber era by a couple of decades - but they dealrt with one thing that Gerber had in abundance - namely ball sense.   (And in his day was considered a BIG player who played along side a very smart player in Michael Du Plessis -  a big player)

You are 100% correct about the issue of center play (Hhahahahahahahahahaha - see you comment re De Jongh!!!).   I said it before and I say it again and that is the idea is that centers nowadays are basically selected because of the bulk issue (Rubbish think Ebersohn, De Jong, Jordaan although he is a reasnable 92 kg  but notreally big, Olivier wasnt huge either - in fact name me the SA centers over 100 kg who played this season - good luck to you! Then think o fsbw at 110 kg with grea tskill sand Nonu who also has skills).  The heavier the better (Nobody is saying select on weight alone!! If that was the case pick a prop to play center!).   Creative players are not acceptable since they generally do not meet the size requirement (Fact is the bigger players (90kg benchmark) are equally creative and fast and so the smaller players lose out - because they cannot cope as well in collisions etc - coaches throught the world know this and seldom pick small players - particualry at center - name me the top center sunder 90 kg - good luck to you).   That is where players like O'Driscoll and Conrad Smith of the modern era are different - they are smallish and cleverer players than the biggies with minimal ball sense and skills. (93 and 95 kg - so your theory is blown out of the water)

Over the last sixry years our top centers were all smallish guys with massive ball sense - but that ideal was replaced when the size issue took over in the early 1990's (MIke they may appea rsmall by todays weigths but size has increased enormously over the decades. Frik Du Preez was a mere 106 kg

If they cannot find a player that does not meet the SIZE requirement - they have to invent one (what rubbish!!!).    We had the past year two examples that I want to refer to as something that has gone awry:-

J P Pietersen

Since 2007 Pietersen was always regarded as one of the top wings in the world.   A requirement  for a wing is entirely different from those for a center.   A wing can allow for rwo major issues - speed and strength in running - whilst the center requirements relates to ball skills and sense as well.   In the early 2012 Super Series games Plumtree decided to use Pietersen as a center.   From a top class wing - Pietersen became a very average center.   The Sharks backline became totally ineffective and the early games of the Super series was a rank disaster for them.  

As a result Plumtree decided that the moving of Piettersen to center was not so clever an idea after all and he moved him back to wing and brought in a 20 year-old rookie - Paul Jordaan - at 13.   Jordaan is smallish in size - tough as nails - but with some huge advantages.   He is very speedy with a very clever natural rugby brain.  The turnaround in backline play he played a part in was a major reason why the Sharks ultimately made it to the final.   In the latter final he was moved to 12 and Pietersen to 13.   Jordaan played opposite SBW and had a very good game - whilst Pietersen at 13 showed very little of substance.

This was not a size issue at all!!!! Firstly JP played some good rugby at center and needed more time to settle at wing. However wing is his position and he is today an expereinced and accomplished wing. Jordaan is over 90 kg and is a strong Bok centre candidate. Meyer no doubt is holding him back along with a few other youngsters. Obvioulsy Plumtree thought the best use of his resources was JP on the wing and Jordaan at center - it was nothing to do with size.

Yet on this Board there are still people who believe that the size issue is paramount and who insist - despite all the statistics to the contrary - that Pietersen at 13 was a success.   There is one lucky outcome from all of this - and that is Plumtree will not make the same foolish mistake by experimenting with Pietersen at 13 again    Once bitten - twice shy. (Again it was not a size issue but a suitabliity issue and the best use of resources)

Taute

Taute met the bulk requirement  and he played at center for 3 games and was then injured and did not play for the rest of the Super series.   Although he performed reasonably well at center - he was never on the level he played at full back - and the outcome of the move can be questioned on that basis.(Again Taute at fullback or center is NOT a size issue!! His size is perfectly adequate fo both positions!!!!!!)

Come the Championship and Meyer was faced with a real problem after the injury to Francois Steyn.   Because of Taute's bulk, his reasonable performances at center for the 3 games he played for the Lions in that position and the general shortage of 13's with the necessary bulk requirements Meyer considered as necessary - he picked Taute at 13 for the Springboks in the later games of the Championship and the latter came off the bench once and started in 2 games in the Championship.    He had a good game in the Pretoria test and a very poor one in the Soweto test.  (AS did a number of players!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our major problem wa th epack ran out of gas after 30 minutes) The fact is that Taute could make a test center but is possibly best suited to fullback where it apopears his preference lies. Meyer has an abundance of centers but is short on fullbacks. Center - Jean, Frans, Jordaan, De Jongh and Allende and then a number of youngsters like Jan Serfontein, Du Plessis, Howard etc.) He has at fullback Kirchner and who else well Taute of course. Joe and Aplon are starting to ge on s otaute has to go to fullback as Lambie will be playing flyhalf for the sharks  - something that totally escapes ou snapster!!!)

As a result Meyer realized the mistake made by playing Taute at center - when the EOYT squad was selected, Taute was selected as a full back and not center.   It soon dawned on Meyer that he messed up badly with his squad selection and he only had two usable centers in the squad.   He then reverted back to Taute at 13 (OH boy this is rich - ever hear of utility players  Mike! Hahaahahhahahahaha - man one gets into difficult ywhen trying t oforce events into a rigid script!!).   As a result of the Irish test - where Taute showed very little at 13 - Meyer then was forced to play De Jongh at 13 in the remaining two tests.   De Jongh - a much smaller player -  unfortunately does not possess the necessary ball sense to off-set his small size and the result was nothing to write home about. (Ye shi stry agains tthe Sharks illustrates he has no ball sense!! Hahahahhahahaha - please Mike do bear in mind De Jongh played in a sterile Stormers backline bent only on defence!!. Do you recall though how he and Sadie cut the blues backline to shreds the year before?)

Taute then signed in agreement with the Stormers.   Bearing in mind his past history - he himself indtcated that he wants to play at full back in future - yet there are still people around that wants to see him playing at center.   Taute has one advantage at full back - he is a strong runner and with more time available - he can underastnd what to do to be really effective - a luxury he does not have at 13. 

(He could make a success of either position but will probably do better at fulback - we shall see)  

Present Centers

The two names constantly mentioned are De Villiers and Francois Steyn.  De Villiers in his early playing career was very good - he showed massive ball sense as a younger player and had speed as a major asset.   As a result of the game plan - he has lost quite a lot since his early days and is nowadays much more of a crash ball player showing in reality not much else.   (Jean is still quick as we have seen a numbe of times. Still possess all the skilss but has suffered in the sterile Stormers backline and ditto re the Boks . In both instances he has been one of the better backs).

Francois Steyn started his adult playing career at full back - but in the WC in 2007 he was moved to 12 when De Villiers got injured  early.   He was very average at 12 - with one notable exception.   In the final he did not tackle his opponent - and the result was he POMS neartly scored a try that could have put us out of the WC.   Since 2007 Steyn constantly played at 12.   He has very little ball sense and used strength only to try and effect line breaks.   It is rarely successful - and a further problem is he cannot off-load balls effectively in tackle situations and he does not create space for other players to run into - an essential insofar as an inside center is concerned.   Since 2007 he bulked up further and lost some speed in the process - as a result he is slower than he used to be off the mark and can more eeasily be contained.

He needs to get fit which he will do playing Super 15. He has loads of skill and should be a big factor for the Boks in 2013). Nic eturn of spee dfo r abig man, Nic estepping and a huge goal kicking boot. Defence i sof the type thatmakes oppoents thing twice about runnubg at him. Unlike a player lik eAdi jacobs who go tknocked back in th etackle. 2013 could be a great year for Frans. It all depends on how hungry h ei sto fullfill his potential.

As you mentioned - we might as well under present circumstances move a loosie to center - they will be just as ineffective as our present centers are.   This problem is compunded by the lack of real backline coaching and the emphasis on strategic kicking and crashballing associated with the present game plan.  (You could play anyone in this set up and they would be unliley to shone. Its a mental rather than a physical thing.) 

In essence we should change the strategy and come up with two issues - namely -

*   the selection of players with real ball sense and playing ability at center - size not being the only criteria; and (Size has NEVER been the only criteria!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - De Jongh)

*  the upgrading of ball skills and more effective backline play through proper coaching    

Your last point is the  one to consider Mike

Well Mike and Sharkbok I do hope you have  a clearer idea of the issues!!

Beeno

I am sorry we do not agree on this one.   I gave ample reasons for saying that the Pietersen and Taute experiments were not successful - they were far superior players in their original positions.   The issue has nothing to do with size or weight - it has to do with ability to perform at center.

Pietersen was less successful at center than at wing.   To a large extend that affected the backline performances of the Sharks negatively and in the initial Super 15 games the Sharks was not really successful - I am not saying and under-performing was the only factor - but it was a major contributor.   If you can prove me wrong in that regard - results speak for itself - then you are barking up the wrong tree.  

Do you realize that  Taute since 2009 played 68 games for the Lions (34 on CC level, 30 on Super level and 4 at Springbok level - he came off the bench late in one game - hence the 4, but for the sake of argument I will say 3 full games.   He only played out of the 64 Lions games 4 at 13 - in fact 3 full games - since he was injured in the fourth game.    In other words he played a total of 6 full games for the Lions and the Springboks at 13.   FOR THE REST HE PLAYED AT FULL BACK ALL THE TIME.

How Saffex can say Taute was the best 13 of all in the Super Series - based on the 3 full games he played in that posirion in 2012 - beats me hollow.

Now back to what I said - I constantly said that both size and ball sense should be issues to be taken into account and not size only.   De Jongh may have had an occassional sign of some ball sense - but watching him over the last year showed that he has lost it.   That famous CC try was a practiced move used as a surprise package and not necessarily a show of real ball sense.   Your latest pet Jantjies used it repeatedly in games - but it never really succeeded - since the opposirion are always on the lookout for the move.   Jantjies use the tactic way behind the gain line - allowing for better defence.  If you look at the try again you would see that the Sharks saw Catrakilis attacking the gain line and before he was tackled passed the ball back to De Jong running at an angle - that made the try.    The ball sense was portrayed in that case by Catrakilis - with De Jongh only using the space created by Catrakillis.   Honestly answer me one question - during 2012 give me ONE example where De Jongh created any space leading to a try?   It is not  only about him scoring tries - I would not say 3 tries in 21 games is really something to wite home about - but that could be off-set by him contributing to other tries - he never did.  In the London test he showed zero ball sense.   He never really was in a position where the ball could be passed to him or where he was in a position to defend showing a bad deficiency in his reading of the game.   It certainly is not his size - but his deficiencies in reading of the game - that is an issue.

I NEVER ONCE SAID SIZE IS AN ISSUE - you really missed the boat here.   I said that size should be accompanied by ball sense - something Saffex refuses to recognize.  If players have ball sense - the bigger they are, the better.    What I said about Francois Steyn and De Villiers should not be an issue at all.   Both were largely inefffective this year - Steyn more so than De Villiers.   if Steyn can get his act together I would be delighted - but I still have doubts about him.   I hope he proves me wrong in Super 15 next year - I really hope he does.   De Villiers is to my mind in his last year of top class rugby in 2013.      

"*   the selection of players with real ball sense and playing ability at center - size not being the only criteria; and

*  the upgrading of ball skills and more effective backline play through proper coaching "

What these posts clearly indicate is how out of touch you lot are with the art of modern rugby. Do you honestly think Danie Gerber playing in todays test environment would have danced his way around defenders like he did in his day. Get bloody real

One would swear judging by you lot that all the other sides out there are blessed with test centres that dance and step their way past defenders, when reality dictates that even a player like O'Driscoll has to resort to the direct stuff.

The direct stuff is necessitated by the lack of space modern day test players are faced with. If you actually paid attention, you would realise that centres are no longer afforded space 95% of the time, so the only real successful method of breach, is the SBW method.

The modern day centre has to possess skill and physicality. Physicality will be what he relies on most, with skill in the contact situation ie the offload setting him apart. That ability to dance and step his man will come into the equation probably at most 5% of the time in a test match.

So your perception of modern day test centres is dictated by the environment they find themselves in. Defensive patterns and structures are so well organised these days at test level that space is at a premium.

Good to see you lot so in touch with the modern game. If we want space lets change the laws, it has stuff all to do with the players. In modern test rugby, its extremely difficult to create an impression and the only real stand out this year was SBW because the lad is so damn strong.

Danie Gerber was a big lad with legs lik oaks!

Any suggestion that we select players on size alon has to b erejected out of hand. However size is an important element. Wha ti sa funny i stha tthe smaller centers mentioned are all over 90 kg! Hahhaahahhaha.

Its very simply if you backline is too small you will get whipped. Sorry all you small guys but facts are facts.

As happened when the Stormersplayed, Bolla, Russle, Paulse and some other microlight against the Highlanders (4 little piks in the backline). They simply could not hold them and got smashed.

Again we ask where are the internationa lbacks under 90 kgs barring scrummies?  They are few an dfar between.

I am thankful Meyer is unlikely to bring in a host of small players like Aplon, Joe, De Jongh, Ebersohn etc. and play them. One you may get away with but the risks grow each time you add another.

Saffex

Wht you said is in some ways correct - centers never do much in standard play - it is aftr quick recovery of balls from maul situations - where better backline performances are possible.   The direct stuff you spoke about will always be there - but the secret certainly is not predictability - the same thing over and over again.

However - what must be the role of a center in th first instance - take for example SBW.   He draws in defenders creating space for players to run into and off-load balls effectiely in tackle situations.   That sums up in many ways to creative play by an inside center and that is why the All Black backline is such a dangerous weapon.  Coupled to the above Dagg comes into the backline and creates an overlap and the backline scores many tries in that manner.    I would say ball skill and sense are crucial elements in that regard.

Our problem is that we this year has basically played Francois Steyn and De Villiers at inside center.   Steyn in particular drew in defenders get tackled and dies with the ball - since he has at present really no off-loading skills in tackle situations - he did not do so ONCE in the tests played this year.   The sequence normally was crashball - slow recovery of the ball - pass out and next crashball.   If that is the best one can expect from a backline - then there is something very wrong in our rugby.   

I am glad you add skill to the equation of requirements - but which of the centers we played this year has shown any real skill?   Definitely not Steyn, De Villiers, Olivier, Taute  and least of all De Jongh.    None of them showed any ability that would have a try as an end result.   That could be the result of deficient coaching .   Enough has been said of De Jongh who definitely is not worthy of Springbok selection - but as to the other four they were to various degrees all defective.   They try to use force to make unsuccessful breaks  and then the ball dies with them.    What amazes me is that a youngster like De Allende can off-load balls very well in tackle situations after drawing in two or even three defenders and that all the above four is clueless about that aspect of the game.

Technique, skill and speed  remain the keys to successful center play.   Unless the centers cannot reach the necessary skills level - they must be replaced if further specialist coaching does not succeed.  The stronger players with the three key elements mentioned are what we should strive for and what we do not have that at present.

Mike with regard to sbw - its his size 110 kg that often allows him to be able to make the offloads - he often half breaks a tackle or at least is going forward when he slips out an offload. Litttle players like de Jong often when tackled are going backwards.

sbw proves so evidently that size is not a limiting factor re skills. However get too small and you are wiped out.

The notion that we pick huge creatine pumped up backline players is ludicrous/

Beeno

I agree a center should be 90 kgs plus.

Did you notice how Saffex has gone quiet about Taute being the top South African no 13 center after research indicated that he played only 3 full games at 13 this year in that position.   He in fact played 5 games at full back - so I still believe the Lions and Springboks experiment to play him at 13 was not really successful.   Back to him at full back is the answer here. 

Mike try catch a wake up, defences are no less structured in broken play than structured play, what bloody test rugby do you watch?

As for Taute, provide the stats that say he only played 3 games at centre this year. I dont recall where the stats came from that showed Taute had made more breaks, more metres gained and more defenders beat than any other SA centre. I did not post the stats at the time someone else did and it was not even regarding Taute, it was about Josh Strauss I think. I was just very impressed to see how well Taute ranked on the list.

As for the experiments as you put it not working with JP and Taute at 13, what complete bullshit. JP was great at 13 for the Sharks and I actually think with his physicality and size, he is probably our best bet at 13 for now. Meyer will probably try him there next year.

As for Taute, he has been our best Bok 13 this year. Certainly better than Jean and de Jongh. Taute was bloody great against Oz, pretty average against NZ and good again against Ireland - so how on earth is that a bloody failed experiment? You clearly are clueless when it comes to centre play.

As for SBW he creates space for others as he commits physically and is able to offload in contact, its a skill and strength thing, no other test centres have this skill, with only our Frans coming closest

Saffex

Sorry tp disappoint you - but I checked every game on the internet of the LIons in 2012 to find out where and in which positions Taute played in Super 15 games in 2012.   The first three games he played at 15 - then there were two games he did not play - followed by two games he played at 15.   In the succedding game in April 2012  he swirched to 13 and played two further games at 13 - before he was injured in the fourth game at center.

I think the stats you referred to was for the purposes of nomination for CC player of the year for 2011 - hence the reference also to Josh Strauss's performances.   In that year Taute played only at FULL BACK and ths tstas no doubt stemmed from him plying in that positio and not at center.

Even if that assumption is incorrect and ths tats were  i fact or 2012 I doubt not that the stat provided are for all 8 games he played - and is most likely to reflect more favourably on the situation when he played at full back than when he played at center.   Taute was an amazingly good full back and in that position was nominated as CC player of the year in 2011 - however, Strauss got the award.   There is no doubt that he continued in a similar vein as a top full back in 2012.   Under the circumstances I doubt very much whether his stats in he three games he played at center was much different from those where he played at center for the Springboks - which really was average to poor.

I am impressed with Taute's performance at full back - much  less so with him at center.   It is indeed fortunate that he will play at full back for the Stormers - since I see him as a Springbok full back of the future.  At center he will be a great loss as proven by the games he played in at center in 2012.

As for Francois Steyn - he is the same weight as SBW - but not ONCE in games this year did he make any effective off-load of balls in tackle situations - he may have the physique - but definitely not the skill.   Hopes he gets better though and we see some spark in his play - the tests this year he really was ineffective.

As for Pietersen - whether you like it or not he was not effective at center.   Plumtree is NOT going to play him at center for the Super series next year - and if Meyer does so,  I reckon he indeed would be as dumb as you say he is. 

Crap the stats were for the S15, had nothing to do with CC as the table included Kiwi and Oz players and Taute played more games at centre than 3 for he played a few at 12 and 13, then got injured. The stats were not for the whole S15 at the time they were posted, it was about 3/4 the way through.

As for Frans what crap he offloaded plenty of times hence his high rating in the tests he played, he imposed himself physically and offloaded.

As for Plumtree, well at one point last year he said JP was the best 13 in the country - FACT and Meyer was going to play JP at 13 on the end of year tour until Habana got injured, so given de Jongh was a flop, good chance we might see JP there for the Boks next year. I would be more than happy with that move.

Frans at 12 and JP at 13 will have some serious clout

SBW can pass, he can dodge defenders, run varied angles to create space for those outside him, run direct as well, offload in the tackle and dominate the advantage line by being heavier than his opposite number.

In  summary he is unpredictable and has all the required skills. However he is probably not the best example in comparison because he is freakish in his size and skil.

-

-Brian Odriscoll is not the biggest of players and for most of his career has been less than 90K for most of this.

- Conrad Smith is also not very big and is a player similar to oDriscoll. 

- Matt Giteua also much of his career below 90KG. 

It seems we are watching different games over the years.

I see our centres like DeWet Barry, Pieter Muller, Misiekind Olivier, Jaco Taute and compare them with the the likes of oDriscoll, Conrad Smith and Matt Giteua- I see very different players. 

I also see more tries from backline play and the wings getting the ball in space significantly more than the boks.

-The boks would rather play Jaco Taute at center for a few extra kgs over a specialist outside center like Ebersohn from the Cheetas or Paul Jordaan. This is not for the sake of 20kg, but a mere 5kg etc

--

The point is that centres from South Africa like Danie Gerber used to be smarter players in the mold of Giteau, Odriscoll and Conrad Smith. These players could create space in a phone booth- forget about current rules or old rules. A good center can make space. 

Instead our centres butcher rare overlaps, miss the play on the outside with either a forward pass or pass behind them, or get isolate and have no option but to take the tackle and go to ground. 

At the moment it is just the springbok forwards winning games, with the exception of individualism from the wings like Habana and JP.

If Habana and JP were playing outside of Giteau, Odriscoll and Conrad Smith they would get the ball in space much more. 

Some of Conrads Smiths tries he created in the English test were miles away from the crash ball one dimensional option of Jaco Taute.

If the opposition knows the player they are marking cant pass it is easier to defend against. In the unpredictable play of Conrad Smith he pulls in the defenders to either create space and pass, or dummy a defence to commit more than one player to him and break the line or score. 

-

Why is our backline not scoring many tries compared to other test teams? Meyer cant take all the blame as the boks lost to Scotland in 2010 with many other low try scoring affairs in other tests. 

It is not the forwards and it is not the wings- so logic dictates it must be the people in between= the centres. 

Saffex

Don't talk crap.   I checked the team sheets for each of the Lions games played from February to April - Taute missed two games in that period and was injured in the first game played in May 2012.   He did play 5 games at full back and 3 at center - and that is confirmed by the match sheets on the internet.   If you doubt it you are at liberty to go and check for yourself.   If the stats were for the period February to April 2012 it would cover in the main the games where Taute played at full back.    I doubt not that he ois a ten times better full back than center and his full back stats are likely to prove that beyond any shadow of a dount.

As for Steyn off-loading balls in tackle situations - that must be in your imagination - it never happened in games where he crashballed and maul situations followed.   In all tests he made ONE significant line break in Dunedin and threw the ball back wildly to nobody and the move died.  

Steyn and Pietersen at centers - dead backline absolutely guaranteed.   It is bound to be a major flop and I for one hope it never happens.   By the way - Plumtree did say what you mentioned early in 2012 - but tried his utmost to avoid repeating selecting Pietersen at 13 later in the season.   Pietersen was in fact an average to poor center - whether you like it or not.   Pietersen was ineffective and the below par backline performances was the reason for the Sharks poor early record in the Super Series in 2012. 

 @Beeno- This is another reply where you have seemed to misunderstand the post. No one suggested that smalll players should be used. Being intelligent is not synomous with being small. 

Can Jaco Taute even pass the ball? He just looks like someone who spends his whole day in gym instead of doing skills training. However in the case of Taute would it not be better to have chosen a specialist center even if they weighed like 5kg less?  If their was someone 30 kg heavier than Taute they would still probably be able to pass better

-

@Saffex- It is true on first phase possesion that their is less space than in the past, but not so true on counter attacks or multi-phase possesion. 

Forwards are faster now days than in the past so it does create less space on the field but the ball is allways faster than the man.

Centres with good passing skills and running angles can still create space especially on counter attacks or quick multi-phase possesion. 

Your comments that "no longer afforded space 95% of the time, so the only real successful method of breach, is the SBW method."  (This is straight out of the Henieke Meyer play book) (If this was true it would be better to play a big fast loose forward like Spies that can offload in the tackle at 12)

Not sure if you saw some of the tries scored by . (the All Blacks in Johannesburg and Twickenham but these were not the SBW offload in the tackle method only.

Their were done by using the width of the field, running angles that drew in opposition players and pin point passes by the likes of Conrad Smith to cut the opposition line of defence. 

This is the stuff that Danie Gerber can do, can our current centres even pass more than 10 metres accurately while running at full speed? Many oppertunities are butchered where one of the fans at the pitch edge gets the ball as a result of a mis thrown pass. 

- The passing ability of many of the backs is shocking and they should be on the field learning skills instead of pumping iron in the gym for a few extra kgs. 

 Your comments "defences are no less structured in broken play than structured play, "-

You cant be serious? What is the purpose of quick recycle ball from rucks to run onto the ball on the front foot. Why do players like Richie Mccaw ly on the ball to slow down possesion for the opposition? It is to allow his own team mates the time to regroup in defence. (This is applicable to forwards and backs).

Many tries are scored when half the opposition team is still lying on the floor either caught in a ruck or recovering from a tackle, or running back to their positions on the field. 

Anyone that has played a game of rugby on the back foot versus walking forward to run onto the ball with aknowledge a massive difference. 

This is how the Bulls played from 2007-2011 when they would suck in half the opposition defence before going wide. This is also referred to in SA as earning the right to go wide, as it creates overlaps.

Sucking in the defenders to create the gaps first by outnumbering them out wide.

It is often the way that SA teams in general score tries out wide by pulling in the opposition players into making tackles and defending around the ruck. In SA though this is often our only chance of scoring tries out wide because our centres lack the passing and play making ability of the best in the game now adays.

Disagree Shark, for a start the theory that setting up multiple phases to draw defenders in to create space is but a theory. Reality is that defending sides committ less and less players to the ruck or maul, with more players available to defend.

Yes there is more space in the counter attack when and if sides ever employ the counter, much of the ball received tends to be kicked back in anger.

If we are to see a counter it seldom involves a centre, who is the subject of this debate. We dont see modern centres beating defenders by stepping or swerving, its mostly ball in traffic - the reality of the modern game.

The ideal centre is a skilled physical one, who for the most has to committ physically but when the opportunity presents itself he should employ the step or swerve to beat his man.

The point of my take on centres, is that contrary to what people say on here about our modern centres, I beleive all our young centres coming through have all the attributes to make class centres - they are physical and skilled - all have shown moments of quality attacking play. The reality of test rugby, makes it very difficult to make an impression as a centre, whether you are a rookie or seasoned pro - just ask Jean and Nonu

 Saffex commiting less players to the ruck or maul can backfire because then it is better to go straight than out wide due to a numbers advantage of the attacking team commiting more players to where the ball is.

--

Quick recycling of possesion at the tackle area and offloads by the forwards in the tackle will break the line of defence.

Teams like England, France and South Africa keep their forwards less spread out over the field on both attack and defence to dominate the ruck and maul area whilst teams like New Zealand do sometimes tend to spread their forwards out over the field more(especially on attack). Teams with bigger forwards along with a numbers advantage can just go direct by smashing and offload their way through smaller team which are also commiting less players to the tackle area. If it 8 against 4, who is going to win?

-

In this case it makes more sense to go direct with the forwards and smash through the line of defence, and then opposition forwards are put offside behind the advantage line. The opposition backs are then pulled totally out of position to tackle forwards go directly up the field.

-

It is like I have stated on previous posts- this is when Mccaw and co start lying all over the ball to slow down possesion and quick recycling to prevent the bigger bok pack from gaining momentum. The Bulls done this for many years in the SuperXV and this is one of the reasons that SA had 3 out of 6 teams in the Finals, it was by no means due to  our less than addequite center play. 

-

As for rolling mauls, as done by England, France and South Africa once these get going it would be suicdal for an opposition team to not commit all their forwards to stop it legally and sometimes even backs have to enter this as to many forwards have fallen off and pulled into an opposition position.

-

It general it is more on attack that teams may spread the forwards over the field as this helps with a passing game because as soon as a player goes to ground their are forwards to clear the ball. It is less applicable to defence because it would just play into the advantage of bigger packs - and would assist further through giving the attack team a numbers advantage and just make going wide less practical than driving, mauling, carrying and offoading by forwards to go straight up the field. 

-

It is a proven statistic that the most tries are scored by the backline is not from 1st phase.

It is either from counter attacks and multi-phase possesion with an offloads. In both case the defence is less tight than on first phase. 

Often it is counter attacks that still include offloads. The few tries scored from 1st phase are nearly allways offloads.

-

If our centers are not involved in this area enough it is because of their lack of passing and play making skills, not by their required roles on the field of play.

Offloads and counter attacking require good passing skills to take advantage of existing space, or have players run into spaces created from the offloads.

-

Our centres usually just go to ground - this is applicable to nearly all the SuperXV teams. Their are some centres capable of offloads but it is not done very often.

Frans Steyn can offload in the tackle but does not have players running off him to give him the option.

-

Jean Devilliers has never been good at offloads and many of his passes in try scoring situations are forward.

Although Jean Devilliers is one of the better centres around even though he is past his best.

Juan Dejong is just not strong enough to stand in the tackle, or skilled enough to offload just before/as he is getting tackled. A long list of others will just go to ground when tackled and often give away a penalty. 

--

This link shows the boks like Danie Gerber and his team players running into space, passing just before getting tackled, and looping around to support players to give them the option to either offload in the tackle or even before getting tackled. 

-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJsB-OL730

--

 This is Nonu vs SBW   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-goKl8Pi028

When Jean Devilliers was at his best he could match both as a runner but not a passer(+offloads). Devilliers at his best was potentially a better runner than both SBW and Nonu. JDV.s general passing in comparison including offloads and running angles to create space is much different

Although it still makes it easier to defend against Devilliers because it is less likely he will pass, as well as less likely it will be a pass of the same quality as Nonu/SBW so watching the other supporting players is less relevant

-

 This is one of Jeans Off Load Tackles. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8NzhLsyeoc

_ I am not overtly criticising his game as he is an excellant runner, but this offload pass is atrocious

Sharkbok

Thanks for drawing my attention to the issue of Taute playing for the Lions.  As mentioned repeatedly above  - he played at center only in 8 full games at center since 2009 - 3 on Super 15 level, 3 on test level and 2 on CC level/   I checked the team sheets and the end result was as stated,    Saffex would not accept the fact that Taute in fact is not really a center - but a full back tried out at center because of injures to players.

I also wants to thank you for clarifying the iassue about attacking play and the roll of centers in the process so clearly - it was for me a real eye-opener to see the matter dealt with so clearly and precisely - so I hope that Saffex and Beeno would also learn something from what you wrote,  

Saffex do not believe in skils as part of the play of centers - he wants them big at 102 plus  kgs even in those cases where skills in those players are grossly deficient or non-existent.   As you pointed out the skills in passing is grossly deficient and so is running off the ball to be in position to receive off-loads in tackle situations.    When playing at full back Taute is good in that aspect of the game - at center not so.   That is where the issue of Pietesen is also not really so effective and where Jordaan is better than either of the two.   You need real speed and  ball sense to be  able to do so effectively.

As to the comments of Beeno - it is all centered around the fact that Meyer is above criticism and that De Villers is near to perfect and on that basis he loses it all.      

Shark, none of that lends itself to the role of a modern day test centre being able to beat his man through a step or swerve, for reality is that in 3rd or 4th phase play there is no structure to it, as with the counter attack......players involved in these facets are usually out of position involving a combination of forwards and backs.

Our centres do not just go to ground, no-one coaches a player to go to ground, the only time you go to ground is when you cant gain any further forward momentum.

Our centres are in exactly the same position as all other centres out there. There are no standout test centres out there today, not because they lack skill but because the nature of modern day test rugby does not afford them the opportunity to beat the man as was the case in Gerber's day. Showing footage of Gerber is worthless for there is no way Danie would have been able to execute his brand of play in the modern game.

Mike try catch a bloody wake up how many more times do I have to say that a modern centre has to posses both skill and physicality, go read my posts again, I say it time and time again. Do you think I am stupid enough to maintain that test centres should only be big. Stop speaking shit about what I said a centre should be.

Saffex

Your claim that centers must both be physical and have skill is what we all strive for.   However, the players you punt most of the time has size - but virtually no skill - so you contradict yourself in practical terms.   Because in your mind you really want to believe that they are skillful - you make out that they are - come down to earth and find out about reality please.

Saffex

Your claim that centers must both be physical and have skill is what we all strive for.   However, the players you punt most of the time has size - but virtually no skill - so you contradict yourself in practical terms.   Because in your mind you really want to believe that they are skillful - you make out that they are - come down to earth and find out about reality please.

Mike difference between you and I apart from the fact that you would not know what skill was if it slapped you in the face is that I am in tune with the modern game and realise that the world over, centres struggle to make the impact they used to as defences are so well organised, a concept far beyond your grasp.

The the biggest difference between you and I is that I am hugely positive about the skill level of our young centres coming through. It must be so crap being the supporter you are being so negative about our players.

I judge players on what I see in them and once I have seen the class I stick by those players - some might struggle with a dip in form, thats life, but class is permanent, form is temp.

I have seen enough in players like Frans Steyn, Taute, JJ Engelbrecht, Frans Venter, JP du Plessis, de Allende, Jordaan, Serfontein, Pat Howard, Whitehead and Sadie to know these players have the ability to make it and of these some will go to make quality Bok centres - all have the skill and physicality to make it and nothing anyone says will change my view on that, for I rely on my eyes and my eyes alone. Just like JP Pietersen at 13 would work as I have seen that for myself. I dont give a toss about what you think of my assertion on these players for that will never change - end of

Saffex

I do believe there are younger players who have not lost the skill as to pssing of balls and off-loading in tackle situations that could do the trick in future/   Jave seen enough of that.   However, when it came to passing of the ball or off-load in tackle situations I have seen some rather poor passing by De Villiers and virtually nothing from Steyn and Taute - do they even possess this most basic of skills - because they do not display it in pubklic.   Neither has De Villiers, Steyn or Taute even once successfully off-loaded balls in tackle situations.   When they get tackled the inevitanble result is a maul.   Size they may have - but even most basic skills are nowhere to be seen.

I do not expect much in structured backline moves in this regard from Taute - after all he is and remains a full back thrust into center - but De Villiers and Steyn - what about them?   I believe decent coaching will help - but that is no in evidence at present.   

I have never seen such a strong argument for ten men rugby as you came up with in the latest posts - and am beginning to really wonder why most tries are scored by backline players and not forwards.   Again the answer lies in decent coaching.  Just one question.   How many tries did SA scored from backline moves in tests this year compared to the All Blacks, the Wallabies and even the Argentinians?   You talk about backlines throughout the world struggling - then why are we so abysmally poor compared to th other three countries mentioned?   Poor skills and deficient coaching in skills development remains the answer 

Mike your problem is that you are too stupid to comprehend the fact that Taute is not a fullback thrust into centre play, fuck me he has played much of his rugby as a centre, how stupid are you that you just cant grasp this fact?

If you think he was so good at 15, what exactly did he do in that position that made him so great, it certainly was not his boot? It was his attacking skills, his ability to beat players with pace, strength, step and swerve - the core skills needed for a 13. Why do you think its more difficult to display those skills at 13 vs 15 - could it be something to do with space??

Are you saying Taute cant pass? So he played his whole school career as a flyhalf and centre and did that not being able to pass huh?

Mike you speak the biggest load of shit out and for the record, a 13 hardly needs to be the greatest passer, that is something the 9, 10 and 12 need to be masters at but my guess is that this fact completely escapes you.

As Shark correctly pointed out Frans offloaded well at 12 hence the fact that he and JP scored the highest ratings amongst our backs when Frans was playing - but surprise, surprise that escapes you as well.

Answer this question - why did Frans score higher ratings than our other backs bar JP - take your time over this answer??????

Saffex

What I am amazed about that you inisist on Taute as playing at center - real bullshit if his record in adult rugby is considered.   Lets look at the Stats:-

Golden Lions    :     Full Back    32   games     :    Points scored     -    58

                               Center         2  games      :    Points scored    -      0

Lions (Super 15) :  Full Back    27 games      :    Points scored    -      51

                               Center         3 games      :    Points scored     -     0

Springboks             Center         3 games      :    Points scored     -     0

If the above  does not convince you that Taute's best positiobn is full back - then it is not worthwhile to discuss the matter any further.

You yourself described the situation at center as a position where there is not enough space for players - do you really believe what you wrote about center play - or does that only apply to certain players and not others?   Frankly the above stats showed he played 7 games at center and he scored NO POINTS at all.   Even the stats indicated that he can operate better from full back as from center.   In fact the above clearly illustrate why Taute said specifically he wants to play at full back and bearing in mind the above I really am not surprised at his preference for playing at full back. 

Steyn's stats did not show that he was better at 12 than either De Villiers or even Olivier were.   Matter of fact his stats were poor compared to those of De Villiers in particular.   I always was a great admirer of Steyn - but what he produced  this year was real SHIT.   I cannot care a hoot about ratings by individuals - what i care about is what a player produced.   I still maintain Steyn is over-weight ( he used to start off playing at 100 kgs - he is now 110 kgs), he is slow off the mark and he crashballed regularly.   This year he never effectively off-loaded balls in tackle situations ONCE.   Let me put it clearly - I hope he gets back into playing rugby as well as his reputation indicates - another year of crap performances is just not acceptable.   I will add - he is bound to play at 12 for the Sharks - whose backline towards the end of Super 15 in 2012 was one of their most formidable attacking weapons.   The other players next year will largely be the same - so if the backline flops next year in Super 13 - there will be only one player to blame - and that will be Steyn.  

As we saw when Cruden stepped poor Taute out of his boots....there are still plenty of chances for non behemoths to carve through gaps.

Mozart

You are a reasonable person.   Please have a look at my latest post and bearing in mind the data provided - is it a better option to play tauteat full back than at center?

Saffex apparently believe that if a player at school plays in a certain position - then that makes it possible to play in that position as an adult - even a kid would find that laughable.  In school Etzebeth played at wing - if Saffex is to be believed - he should qualify to play at wing nowadays as well.   

Saffex

When it cpomes to this issue a Afrikaans saying comes to mind:-

"Jy is so toe soos 'n klei-os se gat'

The stats provided are real - but to your mind all facts must be discarded - so as to manipulate selections to make way for three players to be selected  - never mind if two of them perform comparatively worse in the positions you want to force them into.    There really is no more a destructive way insofar as player careers are concerned than the way you so strongly advocate.

However, we are really argueing about a theoretical issue here.   Meyer is NOT going to select Lambie at full back for the Springboks if he plays the whoie Super 13 series as a flyhalf.   Similarly he will NOT select Taute at center after he played at full back for the Stormers in Super 15.

My advice to you is to stop dreaming and start thinking logically. 

Saffex

When it cpomes to this issue a Afrikaans saying comes to mind:-

"Jy is so toe soos 'n klei-os se gat'

The stats provided are real - but to your mind all facts must be discarded - so as to manipulate selections to make way for three players to be selected  - never mind if two of them perform comparatively worse in the positions you want to force them into.    There really is no more a destructive way insofar as player careers are concerned than the way you so strongly advocate.

However, we are really argueing about a theoretical issue here.   Meyer is NOT going to select Lambie at full back for the Springboks if he plays the whoie Super 13 series as a flyhalf.   Similarly he will NOT select Taute at center after he played at full back for the Stormers in Super 15.

My advice to you is to stop dreaming and start thinking logically. 

 Apart from Frans Steyn, the other centres do not appear to  be able to offload in the tackle. Instead if their is no gap they run straight like forwards and go to the floor once tackled.

This is center play in 2011/2012. These are 2 good exponents of the game on how to meet the core functions of an inside center. Either can still play at outside center.

This is Nonu vs SBW   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-goKl8Pi028

 Apart from Frans Steyn, the other centres do not appear to  be able to offload in the tackle. Instead if their is no gap they run straight like forwards and go to the floor once tackled. Crash ball is an option but not ever time. If their is no space and center must know how to create it, or at least try create it until one of the plays opens up. This involves running angles, drawing players, passing before the tackle or offloading in the tackle 

----

This is center play in 2011/2012. These are 2 good exponents of the game on how to meet the core functions of an inside center. Either can still play at outside center.

This is Nonu vs SBW   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-goKl8Pi028

-

Facts remain that the boks do not score many well worked backline tries, instead relying on individual running brilliance or the forwards to create and score tries. We are not going to beat New Zealand consistently until the backs become more creative. One try against Scotland was an embarrasment, although better than losing in 2010. 

Although I would like to see Goosen and Frans Steyn combine. I beileve with a few games under their belt they could develop the backline. Goosen was a revelation against Australia and I do not think he played to his full potential. However if these 2 get injured the well is pretty dry apart from promising youths that have it all to prove in the SuperXV. If someone cant do it in the SuperXV, very unlikely they can do it at test level. 

Frans Steyn has huge tree trunk legs....so he can plant and pass. Just don't expect those legs to find any gaps though. Jean is ten times the centre Frans will ever be.

Mike if you follow Sapp's logic....Taute plays centre, because Goosen plays flyhlaf and so Lambie must play fullback. It was the same logic he used when he was on his Pienaar is our best 10 kick.

The fact is players should play their best position. If Lambie and Goosen compete for 10, assuming Goosen gets over his nerves.....they will both be better for the competition, and more dedicated fullbacks will emerge. If you follow Dave's logic and Goosen is injured (as seems to be his wont)......Lambie has to shift back to 10 and then Taute will be allowed to play his favourite position 15. In fact Dave's whole logic is based on keeping Taute at 13.....crazy and stupid. Especially when Taute bombed there so badly.

In my view only Lambie has put a solid foot forward in the young back group. Taute may bomb at 15 as well. Mvovo, JJ and Hougaard have already bombed.

The biases of overweight couch coaches mean little. The proof is on the field of play. 

Frans Steyn suffered from a condition called " Kankles" in 2012.  

This was possibally due to non stop rugby combined with over eating or perhaps a reaction to creatine. 

Jean is faster than Frans,  and I do believe that he is better at making breaks than Frans Steyn(even when fit).

However Frans Steyn is a better all round inside center, and I do believe Jean is a better outside center than inside center. 

If Goosen/Steyn play to their combined potential, I think we would see many gaps open up for Jean. Jean is fast and he can make breaks so playing outside a play making 10/12 combination would suit his game. Many of Jeans best games for the boks were at wing so he is a good finisher, and average passer at best. So playing 13 would really suit him,