If you've got that number on your back you have to be an enforcer...Bakkies did it and now it's my turn
~ Lock Eben Etzebeth on his 'enforcer' role in the Springbok team ~
It's a done deal for Eben. For him having that "number" means doing dumb things??????? I rub my hands with glee at all those future penalties.
hakwa, its a mans game.
We know that you Kiwis like to play netball/basket
to get the ball away from the contact situation.
Bring back the old school rules of rucking,
and taking the law into ones own hand.
He He he!
I think that wee Irish lock was quietly shitting himself!!
Sharkbok, if the old school rules were bought back, the AB's dominance would be complete over the Boks. The AB's game has evolved, the Bok game hasn't, it's like the Ferrari vs Skoda. The proof is in the stats...or trophy cabinet. Bakkies Botha rep as a enforcer was greatly over blown.....never saw him try his bully boy tactics on someone like Brad Thorn or Jerome Kaino, wonder why?
Agreed that the AB's have evolved, the Boks are being stifled by a conservative coach.
As for Bakkies, well the AB's can only dream of having a true enforcer like Bakkies, Brad Thorn was a sad excuse for a test lock. Etzebeth will be even better than Bakkies, who in my opinion has been the best enforcer the game has seen.
Brad Thorn, what a joke
Thorn is a legend.....at almost 37 years old he competes in RWC final.......takes all his lineouts and one belonging to France.....makes 7 tackles and misses none. Bakkies had more physical potential, Thorn often putplayed him.
Moz please dont speak complete crap, Thorn was a player you never noticed on the field, he was an average lock and never EVER outplayed Bakkies
Correction, Thorn was a player you never noticed Swami....others thought he was great. Here for example, are some comments after that RWC final:
4 - Brad Thorn 8/10
A great way to sign off a legendary All Black career. The old warhorse has added to his already illustrious list of achievements with a World Cup title. He carried the ball well, defended like his life depended on it and asked questions of the French lineout. He will be missed.
That from a NZ source and this is from the Telegraph:
Brad Thorn
At 36 years and 255 days old Thorn is now both the oldest man to play in a World Cup final and the oldest man to emerge as a winner. Will now retire from international rugby but looks as fit as ever. 8
I understand Thorn wasn't big enough for you Swami, but your stance on his play borders on sheer ignorance.
Thorn has to go down as one of the most overrated AB's ever, much like Martin Johnson for England.
The man was never visible, did very little in the line-outs, made no impression on the charge. To his credit he did tackle well, but there was never ever anything imposing about him.
The 3 current AB squad locks are far superior to Thorn, these lads a real locks
The enforcer will get stronger, and the All Blacks Forward pensioner pack will be shitting themselves next year. We need to play the game tighter to our traditional strengths. I think next year will be played at sea level which is better for our forward domination. Apparently the All Black forwards are allready having nightmares about the next forward battle
Yes, we need to bring more of the hard nuts on board and do away with the likes of Jeandre Kruger who is just not physical enough for test rugby.
We have hard nuts in Beast, Coenie, Bismark, Etzebeth, Coetzee, Alberts, Louw and Vermeulen already in the equation. There are some others who need to be introduced in Bresler, Elstadt, Kolisi, Steph du Toit and Paul Willemse. Even Schalk may have a year or so left in him.
Our strength is our physicality, we need to dominate the physical battles and we have the ammo to do that
This "bok forwards will dominate" and "Bok physicality will win games" rhetoric has been spouted for years with the same result....an occasional win over the All Blacks. This is the Bok problem, even though they get beaten regularly by the AB's they play the same old "boof and bash" rugby with the backs as extra's to make up the numbers.(Although Habana is a class act.) The Bok forwards are no longer feared, their so called physicality is a long perpetuated myth that has not translated to wins, the rugby world see's it but the Bok supporters and coaches don't. If you had more backs like Habana the Boks would indeed be the complete team, to me it seems the back skills are ignored to focus on forward domination. The imagined AB fear is more a bok fan hope cause the AB's win consistently With the bok fans there is this always eternal hope that the next game will be the one where they win against the AB's, it's a world of could've, should've and might've that rarely eventuates. Again Saffex you demean Brad Thorns legacy as a rugby player, still doesn't explain why Botha didn't try it on with him or any forward for that matter, all I remember is him mounting Jimmy Cowan from behind and headbutting him....I suppose that's his idea of foreplay or is that your definition of "bok forward domination"?
The great Bakkies botha - one of the best locks ever - and Etzebeth. A lock pairing made in heaven (Where oh where does wee matfiled 107 kg fit in here - nowhere!). Add to that Coenie - fully fit at loosehead, The incomparable Bissie, Jannie. What a tight five!!!!!!!! Surely bakkies has another couple of seasons left in him?
Then Louw, Marcell and Vermuelen (Better balanced loose trio perhaps). (We shall have to see how Burger does on his return). Man you would have to put the wee abs in nappys the day we fielded that pack!! It would bring forward ou macaaaaws sabbatical followed by his retirement. Dan would take a big offer in Japan etc etc. W would simply blow the abs away - chaff on the threshing floor!
Please Moz dont mention the very average thorn in the same breath as Bakkies!!! That is rugby sacriliege.
Foward domination plus our backline and attacking skills revamped. Meyer you have received your instrcutions now go and implement.
Oupoly boy has no idea what is coming his way. Add to forward domination a great defence and good attacking skills and the abs are history. Dunedin is a portent of things to come poly boy.
Please hold back on some of snapster's under 21 players esepcially wee kolisi who is half the palyer that Deon Fourie is for example. Meyer you know about young players and know they must not be indecently rushed- I forgive you for rushing Goosen as the temptation must have been massive - but leave him playing Super rugby (and of course the under 21 world cup next year) - that is more than enough for an under 21 player.
You have to love Etzebeth. That Irish lock must be thankful there is a ref to protect him!! Etzebeth is showing good composure for such a young firebrand. He is pretty disciplined.
Come on lets put in Flip as his partner and see how they go as a pairing. Hope to see the Boks jelling bit better and playing two good halves.
first off thorn and bakkies are 2 different types of locks. thorn was more a mobile lock whereby bakkies was more used as the grunt up front. he has skills and used it on occasions but his main feature was more his presence.
in short bakkies is a more a lock that thorn can every dream of being. that is just a fact. no lock has won more titles and more caps than bakkies. bakkies is a legend of the game and will be go down in history as such. that being said i doubt that bakkies was as rounded as etzebeth at this age so the future for this lock looks amazing. well done by WP for developing such a player it must be said.
in terms of the boks forward dominance. as much as it pains me to say this we as boks supporters need to be realistic. just be hell bent on trying to smash and beat the other team into submission is a wonderfull site but due the high volumes of rugby is not smart not a great long term plan. most teams over the past 18 odd years generally just front up and we as the boks are left without a proper backline to seize the advantage.
the true template of boks domination should be a monster back with a fecther and a potent backline line with a high ball possession attacking mindset. the few blips on the radar in terms of sa rugby over the past years post readmission just shows we as boks need to add another string to our bow to be the best over a long period of time. the likes of simon mannix or metro in france and carlos spencer can really take this backlin to the next level but meyer needs to be a big boy and think aboutside of the box.
if we get our house in order then nothing in the cosmos can stop us on a rugby field but everything needs to be planned and executed
Carpetmuncher, Thorn has been in team that have won Super titles, multiple Tri nations titles, a rugby World Cup, a heinekin cup title, not to mention State of Origins, NRL premierships and played International league. So what titles has Bakkies won? Cannot think of an international where Bakkies displayed his skills other than grunt. Agree you need a foreign back coach, the Boks have some dynamic runners but they're there as an after thought at times.
Polyboy- Bakkies has won 3 Super Titles, 2 tri-nations, a whitewash of 3 tests over NewZealand, a Rugby World Cup. He is apparently doing well in the French and European Heineken Cup as well. Our backs do need a foreign coach, and ideally a New Zealand Coach. I would like to see John Plumtree be appointed as the next bok coach. We have Habana who is argueably the best wing in the world, and JP Pieterson who is not far behind. We should be putting the likes of Scotland and Ireland away with ease most of the time, if we could get our wings into the game more.
Sharkbok, call it a draw on Bakkies and Thorn. Boks need a foreign back coach but somehow correct me if I'm wrong but this would seem tantamount to treason, almost an admittance that no one in SA is good enough to bring out the best in the Boks.It seems SARU wants to keep everything in house internationally anyway, why not have at least a summit with the foreign born coaches and brainstorm strategies, suggestion or compare coaching techniques. Imagine what the Boks would be like with someone like Carter directing play. Haven't seen enough of Goosen, but heard he maybe that good, Lambie I was not too impressed with on last weeks game, steady but didn't seem like he could direct a game.
Etzebeth must be really careful about copyiing Bakkies Botha's style of play. Head butting was one of Botha's fortes - and Etebeth was already caught out with that one. He should study Botha's games carefully and cut out the crap.
I am a fan on 99% of the AB's that play as they are usually class acts, but one that never ever impressed me was Thorn, how the hell he ever played for the AB's is beyond me. I dont recall anything of note that he ever did. Was not big enough to be a lock and never skilled enough to be a loosie.
He was not test material at all..........give me Ali Williams anyday
Saffex, have to disagree about your opinion of Thorn. Not many players accomplish what he has in 2 rugby codes, and for the most part AB selectors know why they select a player and what role and how he fits into the game plan. He wasn't selected for his size but more for his mobility around the field.
Thats fair enough - but thats my point about Thorn, one hardly noticed him and therefore if he was selected for his mobility then that makes even less sense to me.
A lock should not be selected for his mobility, its not the primary role of a lock.
Sorry just did not rate him at all and nothing will convince me otherwise. There are not many AB's I would say that about
The ABs selectors look at - whether you are safe and don't give away too many silly penalties, keeping your cool/thriving in/experience in big stakes high pressure games, ability to do the basics well over and over and over again even in extreme circumstances, extreme sports competitive mentality, ability to relate to a winning playing culture - for Thorn this includes the Brisbane Broncos, The Queenslands Maroons, The Canterbury Crusaders and The NZ All Blacks. Thorn also projects an image of his huge physical presence to the opposition.
It is only fair that not everyone shares those sentiments.
But we digress, this is about Eben! Saffex, what are your predictions for the Boks game against the Scotts. The Scots looked impressive but I guess only because the ABs played a very loose game to enhance running rugby. On the other hand, the Scots tend to mirror whatever gameplan the opposition has. IMO the Boks should grind out a win.
Hakwa
I think the reason why SA supporters woyuld rate forwards different from the New Zealand supporters is in fact the differences in approach as to forward play. In general SA rates hard grinders in tight phases of the game - while New Zealand rates them according to a looser format of play. I believe there are scope for both formats and probably a mixture of the two would be the best.
Because of that approach I always have a prblem with New Zealand lock forwards. I personally thought that from an SA perspective Thorne was very average. As a loosie he would have made a freater name for himself. He would not have been selected at all if he was playing in SA - or at best would be a fringe player. Botha was an enforcer - Thorne never was. Thorne was not th best line-out jumper - another core function of the locks. Speedy definitely.
Now as to Etzebeth. At 20 years of age - he is miles aheadof any other lock in that age category - he can only improve with age and experience. I think by 26 he has potential to be the best lock of all times. He is a very hard player (strong as an ox) and I doubt not that he would play a similar game against the Scots - he would also frustrate the Scots in line-out play. If they have to throw in balls they would have to keep the ball as far way as possible from him - that severely limits their performances in line out play.
I am not worried about the lock situation against the Scots - but the props are really problematic. The two contenders menttioned - Steenkamp and Van dr Linde are jokes in bad tatse.. That could limiy the forward play of the Springboks badly. I am also worried about the center situation - especially De Jongh. I franly do not know what to expect - so I am relctant to make a prediction. .
Clevermike, Thorn then to both nations will have a different legacy. In NZ he's rated a footballing legend because of his accomplishments, in SA average...if that. It all comes down to how both camps view the role of a lock forward,I disagree that line out jumping is a core function for locks these days, with lifting any forward other than the props can win lineout ball. NZ want forwards who are not only ball winners but also are skilled with the ball in close quarters and open field play, hence the basis of AB's expansive approach, highly skilled players playing at pace. Thorn because of his league experience and Crusader experience fitted the bill as a lock. Thorn was always an enforcer he just never had to enforce....Botha wasn't an enforcer he was a bully who seemed to target players smaller than him, but knew he would be hospitalised if he tried it on Thorn. That being said I did think he was a pretty good lock forward and agreed that him and Matfield in their day was the premier locking duo.
matfield - you have to be joking - one of ou r worst lockess ever. backline play is definitely a core function of a lock.
Snapster if Thorn who was if I recall correctly 115 kg and was too small then how was wee matfield at 107 kg not to small. He was a very puny lock. Long stringbean
This has to be game set and match.
Folk forget how pacy Bakkies was in this younger days - he could have easily played number 7. Much like young Du Toit.
Etzebeth and Du Toit are set to rule world rugby as are the Boks. Remember who told you.
I was surprised to read that Eben hero worships Bakkies! Eben is a good player and has ernomous potential! IMO he does not have to model himself on anyone least of all Bakkies - he has the potential to be himself and to develop a clean, hard but intelligent image in contrast to a young thug!
Eben must bully the opposition especially the wee little all black forwards. However he must not give away penalties.
Sharkbok, no Bok forward has ever been able to bully an AB forward, cheapshot yeah, bully nah. I feel like Eben has been built up by the SA media and Bok fans, he's a good forward, young with room to grow in some games his great in others he disapears. But seriously AB forwards have played the game long enough and don't fear the Boks, if they did things at moment would be different. I don't understand why there is this feeling of "we have the biggest, baddest forward pack in the world" but at the end of that should be "but we don't win games". SA use to be feared in the dark distant past for their forwards, but the game has moved on. That's not to say the way the AB's play is the best way for the world, but it suits the players that NZ has. When I watch the Boks today it's like I'm watching a Bok team of the 70's or 80's, the same old grind, with no change and this is disturbing, because after readmittance back into international rugby, the game doesn't seem to have grown.
Polyboy , the boks problems are not usually at forward, as long as the correct combination is chosen.
It is our inside backs that are causing the problems. Habana and JP Pieterson are probably the best 2 wings in the world but they do not get brought into the game - -with space enough.
Our Centers and sometimes flyhalfs do not have passing skills. To many crash ball mentality and individualistic play.
It is a coaching problem, but also a skills problem because without coaching the skills are not being developed.
It seems pretty obvious, but not sure why the problem is not being addressed, perhaps our coaches just do not know how to coach inside backs.
I do not see the boks consistently returning to number one in the world until the skills of passing and playmaking are developed more. We will get to number 2 like at the moment, and then have a good 4 nations where our forwards dominate the All Blacks and this will occasionally get us to number 1, but most of the time we will be in 2nd or 3rd. We will allways be strong at home, but we will lose more away games than we should.
The classic brumbies style would be really useful to improve the boks, allways looking for a support player..
John Plumtree could be a good candidate for bok coach, as I think the Sharks play a more expansive and support play pattern. The sharks beat the reds and Stormers both at home in the finals, and if in form are as good as any team in the SuperXV.
Sharkbok, I agree you have the best wing in the world in Habana and I rate JP Pieterson highly. With the backline skills I don't know about the SA set up, but in NZ as soon as you are old enough to have a ball in your hands, there are constant games of touch, sevens, force back, and this is outside formal club practice. I remember these games on beaches, parks, streets and its a great background for playing at a fast pace, while developing ball skills and putting players in space. So skills were developed at early age. I talk about how pedantic the boks are but one of my favorite players growing up was Ray Mordt, and a little more recently Andre Joubert, now that was a fullback..I rate him right up there with Blanco and Cullen, well balanced runner and just looked like he had so much time. So what I'm saying is what happened to the running backs that the boks use to have!!!!! I know they're there cause they've been there in the past. If the Boks beat the AB's playing a forward/back running game, I would be sad cause the AB's lost but would cheer the Bok game.
Old post, relevant to the Bakkies vs Thorn comparison, and Bakkies coming out of retirement.
Ezebeth our New Enforcer
Firstly and lastly sharkbok there is no comparison - Bakkies an all time great lock and wee brad a journeyman.
End of story.
Geez only a few weeks back it was all about how the 'wee' AB's were going to get done this year.. Now you lads are already talking about it happeneing next year! C'mon you soft cock bastards draw a line in the sand already are your guys gonna give us a game this year or what? It's hard to clean the cabinet when it's choca full of trophy’s
This thread has had more than 2800 views. Must have shown up on some search engine results. Pretty crazy.
Or.... maybe the national coaches are actually paying attention to what is written here and making their teams read it - more plausible :)
@oimatey, it is showing up in the search engines.
I was searching for "Bakkies Botha vs Brad thorn" and it appeared near the top of page one.
Then I commented on it, and it came back into the top 50 most recent posts in the forum.
Or it could be Pdivvy- aka Pieter devilliers learning to read.
abnob you may have noticed that there are a few players leaving like bekker, JP, Habana and so on leaving. Hence we are to some extent starting again. Players are injured 36 Strmers and sharks palyers were out. Who wil lbe fit a raring to go is unclear. It has been a very bad season in thsi regard robbing the super 15 of two premier sides.
I always said 2014 was the year to recommenrce Bok rule of rugby. A numner of youngsters should beon stream then. The question is will it come sooner. The wee abs are there for the taking.
Poly please I dont need stats to prove my case. It all so obvious. Bakkies was in a different league.
End of story.
Some of us have good memories Hasbeeno! "Always said 2014"???? What a load of horse manure. Last year you were waxing lyrical about the Boks burying the ABs THIS year and now you've put it back a year! What's it to be mate??
