Bath vs Saints - another inexcusable refereeing blunder?

72:00 - Bath 14 is put on the ground by Freeman. Pollock is right there, on his feet over the ball. Bath 22 dives in, sealing off. Referee calls hands out, Pollock immediately takes his hands out. Referee proceeds AFTER Pollock has disengaged with "advantage, ruck formed". Penalty and yellow against Pollock.

Only problem - there was no ruck. A ruck is formed by a player from each side joining the breakdown on their feet. Bath 22 went straight off his feet and was the only player joining the breakdown. The first Bath player on his feet is #23 who enters from the side to attempt a cleanout on Pollock - the "hands out" call came before this player made contact with Pollock, hence in the referee's mind the ruck must already have been formed by then. If the ruck had been formed, #23 had to join from the hindmost feet, not from the side. Thus two penalty offences by Bath, yet Pollock gets the yellow.

This should not even have been a tough call for the ref to make. Am I wrong in any of this assessment? Minute 8:39 in the video.

Hollie and I discussed this Paks.

She explained it to me.

Black 22 actually didn't go right off his feet.

When he makes contact with Polly and the other Sts player, he is actually still on his feet, meaning the ruck is formed, and he then falls down.

Strictly speaking it should be penalty but he didn't go in off his feet, which is the one that is a big no no.

We do often see players join on their feet and then be on their knees shortly after and refs usually don't call it.

Check the image, you can see he is still technically on his feet when he first makes contact with the ruck.

What I don't understand is technically he is then supposed to stay on his feet, but that's rare and something we generally only see at uncontested rucks. So when does the ref decide that it's a bit too much "off feet" if you have joined legally but then gone down after that?

Anyhoos, to me it looks more like he is driving in, the other Sts player gives way and that's probably partially to blame for why he ends up going down.

What do you think?

Also, are you checking some of the Champions cup games this weekend? I'm defos watching the Frenchies on Sunday cos that's gonna be a banger.

Imagine, backline play for a change.

It's today's game between Glasgow and Toulon that I'm on the fence about but I'll watch it if you do.

I don't know Plummie, #22 is down onto his knee in a split second and then falls right over the player Pollock is trying to jackal. Looking at it again I think he's initially trying to clean Freeman who also seemed to briefly have his hands on the ball, and then just falls over the ball preventing access. That's classic sealing off in my book, but what do I know. Pity Hollie is only coming around here tomorrow, for some reason her phone is off now.

Hopefully Xavi can opine, he's probably more hands on involved with rugby than any of us here.

Either way, the yellow seemed very harsh unless the team was on a warning and a card at that point in the game was a huge call. It's not like it was a clear and cynical infringement and Pollock responded quickly to the ref's call as well.

I might check a game tonight since there's nothing else on. Actually regret not watching Bath/Saints as it looks like a cracker but I went to bed early last night.

Pity Hollie is only coming around here tomorrow, for some reason her phone is off now.

Haha Her phone should be on now.

Agreed on Xavi. But the man only comes here when he's night fighting in the pub, which is basically never. Us plebs must maar figure it out on our own.

Ja, man, it's starting to not feel like a weekend unless there's at least one rugby thread on the go.

I'll check tonight's game then but will also for sure bet watching the Frenchies on Sunday.

Oh yeah I see the Frenchies now, tomorrow afternoon. Yeah cool. Today's games should be okay too, Glasgow & Tuolon at 16:00. Will see how the day goes.

Very entertaining game last night with Bath forwards ibn the end finally sealing it, I thought Northampton was going to win and forcassted a win by 7 points and it did no work out.

I hink the mathes oday will be won by Leinster and Glasgow - but the inner of the Tournamnet as a whole wwill be sealed between Bordeaux and Toulouse,

mebbe this link might woik

30minogal

Pakie, I appreciate you sticking up for us ;)

It’s been a very contentious decision over here. Not just Saints fans questioning it. But it’s done now, so we can’t change things :(

Personally, I think we had many opportunities to win that game and we didn’t take them, Bath took theirs unfortunately !

Was Saints on a warning, do you know Becs? Otherwise yellow for that seems excessive ignoring all the other question marks. It's not like it was red zone or there was a clear scoring chance for Bath.

No, I don’t believe we were on a warning then. I think it was just a refereeing mistake.

Yeah that's a proper shitter then. Sorry, Becs.

Thanks, Pakie. Disappointing but we could’ve played a bit smarter, I think.

@Pakie, Becs and Plum,

Thank you for the votes of confidence,

On the Pollard yellow, I think it was harsh. He'd gotten away with going over the top of a ruck before when I felt that he should have been penned. Instead Brace awarded a knock on scrum to Bath so I guess justice in the end.

A few minutes earlier when Bath had a line-out in the corner you can hear Ben Spencer ask Brace if Saints are still under a warning and he replies yes but only for line-out infringements, there's an offside or 2 later in Saints 22 after JJvDMescht is carded and then possibly Brace sees Pollocks over the top of the ruck as cynical slowing down of the ball as Bath were attacking with some real intent and he does tell Pollock hands off. Brace also carded Reid after only 2 minutes for a cynical play so swings and roundabouts really.

Unlucky Becs but I'm stoked for Van Graan and T Du Toit.

Thanks Xavi. Maybe there was a warning after the offsides that went unheard. Still think Pollock was within his rights, and he responded to the ref's call of hands out, but we know how these things go. As I mentioned in the Toulon thread, there was a guy on the ball for probably half a second before he was cleaned to the ground, yet he won the penalty.

I saw the early card on the highlights, but that was flatout cynical, diving onto the ball and then continuing to play it back on the ground so I think that's fair enough. Pollock was attempting a legitimate steal and was prevented by a guy going off his feet over the ball. For every ref you're going to have something different I guess.

Thanks, Xavi :)

What do we think of the Pollock tip tackle ? Should it have been a yellow card ?

Didn't see that Becs, only have the highlights.

But another point of contention of course is the defender being taken out during Pollock's try. There wasn't a breakdown as Pollock is still on his feet burrowing ahead, so you can't call it a cleanout and I'm not sure how this can be justified. Looks like pure obstruction to me. Pollock's arse can be seen below the Bath #3's hand.

@Pakie,

This is pretty common now especially with Leinster and Ireland who have been doing it for a while now.

We're coaching the latchers to "swim"past on contact with a tackler and clear him out either as our ball carrier hits the deck or like in the case above he stays on his feet. Referees will cotton on in the end but till they do... get away with what you can get away with.

@Becs, was it the Barberry clean out? If so, then I'd say penalty only as Barberry does lift him but I believe the twist comes from Lawrence. Without the twist its just a good leg lift clean.

Ah, that's interesting, Xavi. See, that's why we value your input, you're actively involved in the game and know what's up.

Hey Xavi. Yes, it was the Barbary clean out. I’ve seen similar given as cards…..and he was quick to issue the final one against Pollock, wasn’t he ?!

Great insights, Xavi

And not any use of the phrases ignorant prick, stupid cunt or fuck off.

Here I was, thinking the above were all necessary when discussing the complexities of the game.

We need more input from the likes of Xavi on here. Hollie has fried mine and Pakie's brains to the point where we simply dribble and stare at the screen.