Benchmark for a centre

I used to maintain that 90kg was the cut off mark for a centre at the highest level but I am starting to sway towards 95kg.

de Jongh and Ebersohn have long proved that they dont have the physical clout to make a valuable contribution at the highest level, but players like Sadie, Mapoe and Jordaan who are slightly bigger are starting to cast doubts in my mind regarding their ability to impress at S15 level. Mapoe is not a 13, he needs to stick to wing.

I see little physical punch from these guys. I hope I am wrong but these players have been disappointing in their first two outings and need to start making an impression very soon. I just fear that they lack the physicality required of a 13. Rene Ranger showed how it was to be done this weekend.

Saffx

You are indeed clueless if you think that size is the only reason for playing a player in the backline.  With your rank  stupidity everything is depending on size - nothing on speed or ball sense.   I wrote elsewhere about Jordaan and his performance on Saturday - you love to punt useless iiots and slow players who might have ben better playing as loosies.   Your hero Steyn showed nothing on Saturday and was the main reason why the Sharks backline - unlike last year - did not function properly. 

There is one thing though and that is if a bigger player has ball sense - he has an advantage over a smaller player with the same.   However, there are very few of the bigger players with ball sense and your heroes are all about brute strength nothing else.   Steyn is so slow off the mark that he is caught before the gain line and does nothin other than crashballing - no off loads and extremely rare passing to anyone else.  Otherwise kicking the ball away.  Ball sense - zero.  Engelbrecht also suffer from the senseless disease.   He is also a crashballer - only difference is he is faster than Steyn and on a few occassions actually got over the gain line.

Do you really think rugby players are better the bigger they are?   The bigger smart and thinking players like Etebeth are better than the donkeys who struggle to get through school.  Also the smaller, faster players are better than the thoughtless ones you so admire.  

the big issue that you are missing saffex is the issue in regards to size, skill and how those 2 are used in cohesion to great a attacking weapon. rene ranger is not only bigger but his skillset is a lot better. the skills are alot more worth than a gym rat size. as bigger players in general are a lot slower when it comes to ball handling if that skills are not coached.

the obsession with size will be the end of SA rugby. both elements are crucial but not one can be a great player if you do not have both. the game is not played on a weight scale but rather on a rugby pitch.

This is total nonsense. 5kg is not enough to make a significant difference.

Christian Cullen played Outside Center, Wing and Fullback and he was about 86kg.

He could also bench press more than nearly everyone in the team. Some people are naturally stronger than other people, so 5kg is peanuts. 

If person A weighs 90kg, and personal B wieghs 95- this is only a 5% difference in body weight.

If Jaco Crash Ball Taute who has never made a pass or offload at center his whole career puts on another 5% of body weight, does this mean that suddenly he can now offload, pass and break the tackle, make a step etc etc

This is a real bone head mentality. Jaco Crash Ball Taute might make an extra 1millimeter over the advantage line on the crashball and then get himself even more isolated. (this statement could go in the hallmark of fame for nonsense)

Ok im just puzzled guys you all slag off de jong and say he isnt good enough for his size or skill but im going to put my neck out here and say he is a pretty soild player all round a good S15 player! he just needs to get in with the ball hawking idea and be near the ball to attack the line not wait for it to come to you! however saf you say mapoe should play wing please! he isnt a winger not fast enough and he is no big boy to clatter other wings out the way like george north! he is a average player where it might be early but he better pick it up fast otherwise i fear you golden boy one step JJ might be back in the team! 

A 12 needs to be the big boy and also needs to have the best hands in the team! purely due to every attack will come off him! he will need to be big enough for the crash ball but have the hands to off load and pass on! for a 13 size doesnt really matter! as long as your a ball hawk you are can be the best if you can see where the ball is and make a play doesnt matter what size you are! but if SA keep going size is key i can only but sadly agree with carpetmuncher! (love the name) it will kill the sa game! 

spot on sharkbok. if i can recall christian benched about 180 kg's and was on par with some of the props on that front but did not lose his speed or skills in the process as he trained that just as hard.

its the gym rat mentality that is a cancer in south african rugby that is why our teams play the way they do.

Wesley Fofana 88kgs....best French player vs England 2 weeks ago. He ran in the best centre's test try in years,  from 55 metres out.

spot on moz as always

that was a fucking BEAUTIFUL! try! i was off my seat when he did that! amazing!

It's not the size of a dog in a fight that counts, it's the amount of fight in the dog.

 Well said Rooinek

Pffft! Can't even spell the name of the handle he's stealing. Surely only Baboon-ou could be this stupid?

This has potential....hoist by his own petard.....comes to mind!!! Now you really aren't Japapeno.....RoooiAAS!

 Size and strength are 2 different things. Jordaan made his tackles, I really liked how he tackled Jean with ease. Why does he have to be bigger?He is also very strong when he gets isolated. Ive seen him break tackles.

He is one of the few 13's in this country that actually understands that you have to put your back three away. He always looks for opportunities to pass.

Granted that he didnt do much these last two weeks, he was the best centre on the park. Just my opinion

Jordaan, de Jongh etc are fine at 13......12 does require that ability to stop forward momentum and prevent an offload.

Twatbok, wake up Cullen was many years back, the game has moved on.

Moz, as I said a few weeks back Fofana at 89kg has struggled to make the French starting 15 for a reason. He is 25 and only played 8 tests of which 3 have been on the wing.

There is no consistency in his performances, that test was the first time he made a bit of an impression, chances are we will see little more of him moving forward.

de Jongh has already proved to be a failure at 13, he was very poor in last years S15. Had one run against the Scots and went awol against England. Jordaan is fast following the same pattern this year.

Dont get me wrong, I want to believe that Jordaan in 90kg plus and that physicality is not going to be an issue moving forward - he has some serious convincing to do. He has been very disappointing but its early days yet

 Fat Dave, so when did you change your opinion that "90kg was the cut off mark for a centre at the highest level but I am starting to sway towards 95kg".

Has the game moved on in the last 7 days?

Or have you been eating more Kebabs and put on another 5kg yourself over the last week to weigh 95kg.

You have put some crap up on this site, but this must rank as some of the uttermost bullshit. 

de Jongh barely touched the ball in both his tests, how would weighing 95kg have chnaged that?

Jordaan touched the ball 3 times against the Stormers, how is being another 5kg going to make any difference?

Maybe all the backline players should stop skills training to get up to the required 95kg by spending more time in the gym.

-

- Some facts about how the game has changed.

The ball is in play for about double the amount of time than what it was 10 years ago in the SuperXV.

However players are not twice as fit or twice as big.

So at the end of the game more space should open up- notice that both the Sharks and Stormers increased their attack with less kicking towards the end of the game when players get tired and more space opens up.

-

Notice how many New Zealand score more of their points towards the end of the match. The Cheetas vs Chiefs was a good example, as was both the bok tests vs the Allblacks last year. In the last 30 minutes more space opens up because players are exausted with the ball being in play more than it was about 10 years ago.

 Your theory of the modern defence is just a figment of your imagination to justify the poor performances of the dumb muscle backline players that you select.

No Twatbok, I have always preferred centres to be 95kg plus, I have always been generous with my 90kg cut off.

But having witnessed the average to poor performances by the likes of de Jongh, Ebersohn, Sadie and Jordaan am thought it best I pointed out that the goal posts need moving - you get that or are you too stupid to comprehend this basic point?

Your grasp on the modern game is the biggest load of shit I have read in ages. The reality of why centres are featuring less and less at test level is because defences are that tight and much of their time is spent in traffic. Hence your modern centre needs to be both big and skilful and not little guys like de Jongh who go awol.

The best centres out there are the big guys - Frans, SBW, Nonu, Roberts, Ranger, Tulangi, Fourie and Jean

Your little skilled players have no place at 13 in test rugby and are struggling to make an impact even at S15 level

 Quite correct snapster. 90Kg is today looking frail for a centre. What happens with centers 90 kg and below is they tend to lose the collisions. They do play in heavy traffic and are simply taking a beating. You cannot deny ebersohn is a skillfil center but becuase of his size cannot make much of an impact. 

The best centers are big, strong, fast and skilfull. That is the benchmark for class centers. 95kg may even be too low but a 95 kg center who is hugely committed can still do it. Certainly they do not look big on todays field.

I always suspect its the small guys who just cannot accept this obvious truth.

I note ou rooitwit has a Beeno 10 type fan. So unlikely but its happened! Hahhahahaha its not me I promise. It could be saSUE/StormingEd?

100% correct Beenkop

So Fat Dave, now suddenly Jean is no longer a past it has been? 

 It is obvious that bigger centers like Sunny Bill Williams at 110kg and who are also skillful are having more of an impact.

However this would still be the case 10 years ago or 100 years ago, and it will in the future. Rugby is a contact sport. 

What is a 5kg difference? 5% in body weight. A few kebabs.

Niether I nor anyone else never said that centers should be small, the issue being discussed that if a center weighs 5kg heavier it does not make them a better center if they are just a mindless creatine crashball instead of a center that can play as part of a team at 90kg.

 Rugby 107 I think jordaan is about 95 kg. Jan Serfontein is already 96 kg. 

Both these guys are fine prospects. That dumbo Frans Steyn just needs to give the gasman Jordaan some decent offloads ala sbw and its try time. Come on Frans wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Saffex- Johan Sadie does weigh 95kg. Maybe he needs to put on 1 extra kg. (and don't come with your crap that you know he is 91.5.2.21 kg just by looking at him on the field you can sense his weight)

 Yep that was what I thought Sadie's weight was. Not playing too badly so lets see how he progresses. 

I thought Rhule looked a bit overawed? He is of course very young.

The Cheetahs backline were fine while their forwards dominated but look what happened when the fowards tired and the opposition got good ball.Yet still some wonder why I go on about foward domination!

Sadie kind of proves my point.(yes, he hasnt been bad this season when he got some space) The thing is Sadie shows poor strength for a guy weighing at 95. I would actually back Dejong against him every time. dejong weighs 88, but hits well above that, Sadie weighs 95 and hits like 85kg guy.

 Sadies defence at the Bulls was more about positional play than physical tackling, although I must say I have not seen him making any bone crushing tackles yet.

 No Twatbok, Jean is past it but in his day about two seasons ago he was one of the best in the business. Much the same as Fourie I suspect.

As for Sadie you will find that he weighs 88kg or something, look at the SA rugby website. At some point I saw a stat having him at 94kg, much like Jordaan - but one only needs to look at them to realise they are not that big.

At least Jordaan has made the effort and muscled up, we cant say the same for Sadie.

Dont get me wrong I rate both players but think both are too small to really make it - time will tell

http://www.sarugby.net/playerprofile.aspx?id=37393&category=&leagueid=0

 oh fat Dave, I just checked the Cheetas website and they also have him listed as 94kg. (Although this is another example of where everyone is wrong again, and surprise surprise you are right. 

http://www.fscheetahs.co.za/PlayersSR.aspx

He is stocky and pretty tall so very easily and most likely 94kg. 

Although he is 1kg from the magic number you pulled out of your arse over the weekend of 95kg as the minimum size

 Fat Dave- you just removed the Cheetas website that you originally had in the post. 

 Look here Twatbok, get this into your stupid head. Its easy to say that after two weekends of poor performances from the likes of Jordaan, Ebershohn, Sadie and Mapoe that maybe the benchmark for a top centre should be 95kg and not 90kg, given these little guys are struggling to make an impact physically.

What part of that dont you get. I for one would prefer the 13 and 12 to be around the 100kg mark.

Sadie on the SA rugby site is down as 88kg. I hope he is 94 or 95 kg, much like I hope Jordaan is the same, for then they stand a better chance of making it. They just look smaller than the weights stated. Sadie is not stocky you dimwit. 5kg is alot for a back by the way. Big difference between a 90kg back and a 95kg one

 Fat Dave- an extra 5kg will help make an extra millimeter over the advantage line when crashballing.

5kg is nothing. A player that is 5kg lighter may be stronger than a player who is 5kg heavier and will therefore be more effective in contact. 

 Crap 5kg's makes a big difference amongst backs. If this was not the case we would see many more test centres weighing 88kg, when in fact most weigh 93kg and more. I would expect a 95kg centre of the same height as a 90kg centre to be stronger on average and certainly more imposing physically.

Conrad Smith at 94kg is a skill player who is able to live in the physical environment, that would not be the case if he weighed 89kg.

But as I say, centres should be around the 100kg mark - Frans, JJ, Taute, Serfontein, de Allende, Howard, Dries Swanepoel, Jean, JP and Fourie are our best. Of the smaller guys, Sadie, Jordaan, Venter, JP du Plessis and Whitehead may have enough of Conrad Smith in them to make it - time will tell, but their job is that much harder in the modern art of centre play where physicality plays such a major role 

Saffex

Have a look at whatI wrote under Mozart's comments of the role of no 12 centers - you indeed may be surprised about my comments.   However, I still maintain my basix statement, namely -

*   bigger and stronger backline players with ball sense and skills, as well as speed are the best propositions;

*   smaler players with ball sense and skills, as well as speed  are better propositions than bigger players without ball sense;

*   smaller players without ball sense are an abomination.

It is not always very evident whether players really have ball sense or not - there are differences of opinion about that as well.    Some players have the latter requirement - but tend to lose it in match situations.   The other problem is that th SA cooaches as a rule do not regard balls sense and skill sets as important and successfully coach it out of players - making our backlines grossly ineffective.

Let me just say that I regard 90 kgs as the absolute minimum for backline players and would prefer higher weights in the mid-90's as more appropriate and accceptable.

The one issue that is often lose sight of is the speed factor.  There is medically also a correlation between the height of players, there weight and their speed.   Please note in that regard that fat is an imdepiment and not a plus factor on the speed issue.

Now lets hget practical and look at the speed factor as well in repct of individual players with due regardto their height:-

Francois Steyn   

Height - 1,91

Weight :   110 kgs.

When Steyn played last year he was slightly overweight bearing in mind his height.   However, observig him in recent matches he obviously lost some weight and is most likely about 95 to 96 kgs.   His problem last year speedwiae was that he was slow off the mark and got frquently caught by defenders before h reached the gain line.  This issue was complicated by the wy Morne Steyn played and the lattr's tendsency to stand too far behind the gain line.   However, be it as it may - Francois Steyn did lose some weight and there are indications that his speed did show an improvement in the recent past.

De Villiers

Height :      1,90

Weight  :     103 kgs

On evidence gained this year the height and weight configuration is in this case ideal.  

Serfonetin

Height     :    1.87

Weight    :       97 kgs

Even though he is still very young and can and will show further muscular development and weight of more than 100 kgs will reduce his speed effectiveness.   However, it is highly unlikely that he will show a really marked increase in weight

De Allende

Height       :    1,89

Weight      :       96 kgs

Jordaan

Height        :    1.80

Weight       :        94 kgs.

Jordaan is by all accounts the speediest rugby player on Super 15 level in SA.   Any firther increase in weight above 94 kgs is going to detrimentally affect his speed.   It is interesting to note that at present Jordaan is .09 meters shorter than De Allende and .07 meters shorter than Serfontein.   It is also evident that the weight difference is 2 and 3 kgs respectively - indicating that strengthwise he is very strong compared to them and it is not surprsing that he is a very effective tackler and ball carrier, whilst beating both players in the speed Department.

Based on the above I still believe that the ideal weight of centers are between 95 and 100 kgs - depending on their height of course.

Another interesting statistic is Rene Ranger.   He is not a very big player at 1,85 meters - but he is exceptionally strong and weighs in at 101 kgs.   He is a very strong runner and defender - but I would not call him a speedster.   Matter off act he is on the slowish side as a center.     Nevertheless that weight and height combination is really the exception and not the rule.

Mike, I cant find any stat that has Jordaan at 94kg, although at some point there was one out there. The Sharks site has him at 91kg and I think the SA rugby site has him at 88kg. de Allende is 100kg

To me Jordaan does not look 94kg, he looks small on the field which makes me think 88-91kg is about right. Same applies to Sadie.

Saffex

Looks at a distance are deceptive.  I also saw Jordaan listed at 94 kgs somewhere and from a near-taken photo the bugger looks like he is as wide as he is tall.   Be it as it may he is very effective as a defender and as stated the speediest player from SA in Super 15.  He is a slippery customer as well and I wish Francois Steyn would stop starving him and Pietersen from getting balls like he did in the latest two matches.   The lattr problem really negates the effectiveness of the Sharks backline as a whole.

Saffex

I checked the Blues website and found that the stats on Ranger are as follows:-

Height   -     1,82

Weight   -      96 kgs.

Really not very big as a center - but he was the best one around last week.   Is he too small to meet your requirements?

No, he is big enough for centre and am sure I saw his weight at 101kg somewhere, but I might be wrong.

Here we go:

Saffes

Why would the  official website of the Blues be different then?   I do not think he is 101 kgs at all - more likely the96 kgs listed by the official website.

Disagree, he looks 101kg to me, thought as much when I watched him. He looks the same size as Taute, Pat Howard etc.

Mike the official websites are sometimes useless. I contacted the Sharks site as they were so useless they did not even have Jandre Marais in their squad and when they did include him, they had him at 59kg. I also informed them that their weights were wrong regarding Bresler, they had him at 106kg and Chadwick they had at 103kg.

They said they rely on the SA Rugby site for their stats, I asked them why the hell didn't they source the stats themselves directly from the squad as that is the obvious thing to do. I have the e-mails and its madness - to be honest I did not expect a response, but the Sharks web editor was cool about it

Guys, I think the one thing we can all agree on is that the player stats on the various sites are about as reliable as a politician's promise. Not sure if it was this thread that someone mentioned it, but size is not always a factor in power, take the freakishly strong Francois Hougard, but I think it is fair to say that if you have two players of equal skill, speed and strength, the bigger player will still be more usefull in rugby.