Bismarck the penalty machine?

That's what you would believe if you  followed Aristo and the pompous Ceradyne. But is this true?

Well it might surprise posters to learn that Bismarck played the entire 2011 test season without yielding one measly penalty. In fact for 7 tests he never yielded a penalty. You have to go back to Scotland in November 2010 to find the last time the lad gave away a penalty.

This is typical sloppy SA fan thinking. Here we have the best hooker on the planet. A superman who combines hooking and fetching. Nobody rips ball away from the carrier better than this chap. He is a trump card in our little game of bridge. But SA fans condemn him without even checking the facts.

So how now Brown Cow. Do we now select Bismarck because he is our most disciplined hooker....hahahahaha?

Ill-discipline is one aspect of his baggage. Yes Moz, he wasn't pinged in a few tests. That doesn't however wash away his bad temperament as he certainly was on his best behaviour throughout those few games. I commented on his striking a Samoan with his forearm as a dangerous lack of clout that could have cost us were it picked up! And as I say, it's now onto round 7 of the Super XV and he is one penalty short of joint top position in the competition. So it puts those few games you mentioned into perspective, as they have been outdone by the here and now. How about his fetching? Non-existant. But pilfering is one aspect of pressuring the breakdown. Bismarck has been literally brushed aside with ease. Last week the Brumbies counter-rucked the Sharks off their own ball with alarming regularity, and where was Bismarck? Not only this but hid defence around the fringes - something I praised last year - has all but fallen apart! Poor lineout throwing, averagr scrummaging, little presence in big games... this fellow is nothing more than another South African myth.

A few tests? A whole year of test rugby more like. But look we wont agree on this one. You think Bismarck is a liability and Chilli is the real deal. I think Chilli can lift his game off the bench, but wont sustain it at test level....a fair disagreement.

I simply wanted to set the record straight on Bismarck's discipline....when it's crucial he can be as disciplined as anybody else out there. Choice of Bismarck versus Chilli to me is blindingly obvious, but each to his own.

I need to correct you DA, Bismarck is actually leading the list on penalty scores, and I have qouted the numbers elsewhere, but Moz has decided to once again rather move it to a new topic, where the figures are not right there to see.

My mistake Cera, I have been going through so many stats I don't know whether I'm coming or going.

Moz, that's a fair enough conclusion. It's your right to back him, as you say, he wasn't pinged for those games. I do remember though that he was on the very edge of the law more than a few times and was lucky not to have been picked up. For me his discipline is something I cannot tolerate, but it doesn't end there. I back Chiliboy - someone I castigated for several years - because of his work ethic and accuracy. He keeps his head down nd does his job. I like a grafter who with BMT. In truth it is now four consecutive games where Chiliboy has outplayed Bismarck in a head-on encounter. That's not something to be ignored. Even last Saturday when the Bulls needed someone to step up to the plate, it was Chiliboy doing the hard yards and making those valuable contributions. Make no mistakes, he is definitely an 80 minute player, and his showings last year for the Boks were of the highest order. Bismarck on the bench? It is a gamble, but he does make more of an impression off the bench than starting. Something I have mentioned I would opt for in the recent past.
 

This is a nonsense debate. The players in question are in entirely different leagues. Bissie is way way ahead of the very average chilli boy. Even if Bissie was injured Strauss or Liebenberg should take his place.

Chilli boy is not even near. Only hope Meyer doesn't go for the bulle man or for chilli because of quota requirements. He should never get in before those other three as he is nowhere near as good.

Not for nothing was Liebenberg honoured as man of the match last Saturday even if one could argue for Etzebeth.

Beeno1
Member
Posts: 799 RE: Bismarck the penalty machine?
April 03, 2012, 08:35:25

This is a nonsense debate. The players in question are in entirely different leagues. Bissie is way way ahead of the very average chilli boy. Even if Bissie was injured Strauss or Liebenberg should take his place.

Chilli boy is not even near. Only hope Meyer doesn't go for the bulle man or for chilli because of quota requirements. He should never get in before those other three as he is nowhere near as good.

Not for nothing was Liebenberg honoured as man of the match last Saturday even if one could argue for Etzebeth.

And Jacob Zuma is a Ph.D

Please winomp your gullibilty is showing!!!!

Ou Beenbal, it is a known fact that you do not like stats, particularly when they do not support your ideas, and obviously you would find some excuse to discard the following again. Be that as it may, here they are. A comparrison between Bismarck and Chilli. Bismarck's figures are on the right, i.e. Bismarck/Chilli:

Games played: 6/5
Minutes played: 480/322
Carries:54/20
Metres gained: 106/26
Defenders beaten 5/0
Off-loads: 1/3
Turnovers won: 2/4
Turnovers conceded: 4/3
Turn over aggregate: -2/+1
Penalties conceded: 12/1
Tackles: 51/31
Missed Tackles: 9/2
Tackle success rate: 85% / 94%
Passes: 19/6
Kicks in play: 2/0
Throws won: 53/36
Throws lost: 14/5
Throws success rate: 79.1% / 87.8%

it is all well, for a tight forward to be running around clocking up on the meters gained, etc, provided he first gets his core responsibilties rigt.

You must factor in Bismarck's love of running the ball out wide. Chiliboy, like Smit, carried the ball in heavy traffic and securely at that! No, it's simple stuff really. Bismarck is obviously not the player everyone believed him to be. Not only that, but I think he is starting to realise that himself. Spies rose to the challenge of being captain; Bismarck doesn't even have the character to be inspired by that. It's a very sad expose of another South African myth. It's just a shame that it took so long for the masses to start seeing this.

Darn right I am suspicious of stats bandied about with no context. Like how many penaltie a player has nailed rather than the success percentage and even then where were the kicks taken from etc. Running meters gain when you are gtting a lot of possession, your side plays a running game and you get the opportunity etc. No please get real stats on their own generally don't mean a lot and actuall ybe suggesting quite the opposite from the conclusion being drawn. Stats have their place but must be used with the utmost care.

Suddenly after thrashing the hapless reds (who gave up and had suffered from a lot of injuries) the bulle probably top most stats - tries etc etc.

No very, very few people would say Chilli Boy is better than Bissie.  Watch who Meyer selects.  Bissie is considered world class - chilli boy is an average super 15 hooker and no more.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Of course Bissie is in danger of penalties simply because he contests so often. Take him out of ths sharks pack and they would virtually collapse. They would lose an enormous amount of grunt. Bissie is the hard man in the sharks pack.

Context please Context is the key here.

"Bismarck's figures are on the right, i.e. Bismarck/Chilli:"......bwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha that is one for the books. Well I wonder where to next - more breath taking mind blowing stats proving the impossible?

I await the reposte with interest!

Ag OK, laugh your ass off mr Perfect. Bismarck's figures are on the left. Obviously you have missed the "............i.e. i.e. Bismarck/Chilli". Now that you have finished laughing, any comments on the stats, or have you stopped reading at the little typo?

 Ja, the modern hooker has come a long way. It is very hard to define a hookers role in the modern game. I remember watching Uli Schmidt back in the day and he always popped up some where to finish a move and dive over the line. But back then the hooker only had to do two things, hook the ball (When scrummies use to feed it in the middle) two, through the ball in straight. Only the latter apply now but not even that much any more. So what should be a modern hookers role? For me Bismark fits the role as he is almost an extra loose forward in terms of carrying the ball and steeling the ball on the ground. Saying that, Chilli has done exceptional in getting those important steals and being really solid in the tackly. The only difference for me is that I believe Bismark is a much better ball carrier.

Then, don't forget Strauss, the guys has been on fire. Liebenberg is more a bar brawler for me, but he is effective. Strong scrummager and good with ball in hand and in tight exchanges.

So who then, I would go on what the coaches plan is all of these guys has certain strengths for different types of strategies.

Actually Vlag you make your point with the stats. Where are they from by the way.....I haven't found a source for turnovers made.

But my point was that Bismarck is perfectly capable of not yielding penalties, as a full year of tests without a penalty shows. His penalty proclivity is the result of not being seriously focused, which suggests other parts of his game may improve in tests as well. I think this is probably true of a lot of our established internationals.

So do tell - were the missed throws Bissies fault or his locks, Are the bulle locks better lineout forwards than the sharks line out guys .

How would the stats look with the farcical reds match excluded. Man Chilli has played one more in any case.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha - get real please! Who do you think you are fooling!

The reality is that Bismarck was identified many years ago as the poster boy for the media's campaign against Smit. That's where Bismarck's substance begins and ends. Now it's quite different, because there is no Smit to hide behind anymore and he has to stand on his own two feet! He is struggling. Now if Chiliboy is only an average hooker, why is his work rate higher? Why is he more accurate in every facet of play? Why does he make big plays in big games while Bismarck doesn't? Why has he outplayed  Bismarck in their last four meetings quite comfortably? All of these questions need to be answered.

Unfortunately, Moz aside, no Bismarck fan has even attempted to offer any facts to back up their argument. All I keep hearing is that, "Everyone loves Bismarck", "Anybody who is anybody loves Bismarck". Nothing but waffling and hot air.
 

Please Card begin by stripping out the Reds game which was a farce so then they each have played five games each. Then answer who has the better lineout. Then consider who has the better pack. Then consider the two styles played by the sharks and the Bulle and the roles the hookers fulfill.

Now if folk had done this they would have realised poor Bakkies carried wee vidtoria and did the job of two locks. Bakkies was the great lock not victor. victor was not real a lock at all. He was also very poor in the backline where he spent so much of his  time.

Bakkies should know and didn't he say "victor doesn't always play in the backline" But few noticed.

Its all so simple if you understand the game! Hehehehehe

Beeno, you are loosing focus. This is about Bissie en Chillie, Victor and Bakkies are history, dragging them into this argument won't work. Chillie had a good game the w/e and had a good season up til now, as did Bissie. Bissie is the man in the saddle since Smith left, so in my book Chillie mus still step it up a bit and proof that he is better than Bismarck beyond doubt, not vice versa. IMO he has not done that yet.

Chiliboy has consistently outclassed Bismarck since game 1 last year. Not in a single facet of play has Bismarck bettered him. In fact, Bismarck has had very average Super rugby campaigns the last three years and is having a complete howler right now. Bismarck comes with a massive reputation; the onus is on him to prove it is justified. Judging by his little tantrum last year he obviously doesn't feel the need to put in the hard yards. Something of a spoiled brat I would say. The sooner this myth disappears the better for South African rugby.