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FORUM / RUGBY /  Bok 13 jersey looks sewn up

Bok 13 jersey looks sewn up

Started by Beeno126 REPLIES501 VIEWS· 31 Oct 2014, 13:01
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Oct 2014, 13:01
#1
31 Oct 2014, 13:01#1

Ex Supersport


Jacque Fourie will return to the Springbok setup and be in contention for the 13 jersey next year, but outside the current Bok squad the chances of another player getting a look-in are increasingly slim.

Coach Heyneke Meyer has seemed to pin his colours to the mast with the current crop of players, and while in Fourie’s absence there isn’t a genuine 13 in the current squad about to leave on tour for the Northern Hemisphere, this isn’t something that is causing major headaches in the Bok camp.

And by inference it also means that the chances of Western Province captain Juan de Jongh coming back into the Bok side are rather slim.(And rightly so)

Meyer has pinned his hopes on not only Fourie, but has been impressed with Jan Serfontein’s performances in the Castle Lager Rugby Championship in the position and the way the interplay between him and captain Jean de Villiers has developed, especially defensively.

With JP Pietersen back in the group and also spending a lot of time at 13 in the Japanese League where he plays, and Damian de Allende still very much part of Meyer’s plans, only injury is likely to force a chance long term in his vision going into the World Cup.

Having said that, De Jongh hasn’t appeared in any Springbok squad this year, and despite some good form in the Currie Cup, he isn’t likely to be an automatic choice going forward either. The midfielder will have an opportunity to remind the Bok selectors of his form when he faces Australia as part of a star-studded Barbarians line-up Saturday afternoon, but the questions over his size will continue to linger when it comes to the Boks.

To be fair as well, Meyer has never seemed to rate De Jongh in his three years in charge, and seems happy with the personnel he currently has at his disposal.

He said as much this week as the Boks reconvened ahead of a daunting four game tour of Ireland, England, Italy and Wales over the next month.

'JAQUE WILL DEFINITELY BE IN THE SQUAD'

I always believed we need a great 13 for the way we want to play and I believe Jan has done brilliantly. He plays mostly at 12, people think he is at 13 but in the game Jean plays mostly there. Jean has played wing and 13 and he has done really well, I think he will improve even more because he is coming back to his best. Jan has done well. JP has proved his worth at 13, he is playing mostly there in Japan at the moment as well. It was the right thing to move him there,” Meyer said.

Jaque Fourie will definitely be in the squad, I rate him highly, he is still experienced and he is young enough. I saw him in Japan now while we were there and he played two half games since he came back. I don’t think it’s fair on Jaque or the team if I take him with, although I’d love to have the opportunity to work with him on the tour.

“We’re a little bit thin in the 13 position and it is no use taking him with. He will definitely be in the squad and as we’re heading into the World Cup year, we have three guys to pick from. I still believe Damian (de Allende) is improving as well. He has been training with us and it was a big ask to throw him in at the deep end and ask him to play at 13, when he hasn’t played there before.

He is looking good in training and I believe he can also make an impact at 13. We’re covered there for the tour, but it is a pity that Jaque Fourie couldn’t be there for the tour. Working with him for such a small time, I could see what he has to offer, he is a quality player.”

So if Fourie can prove himself fit ahead of the World Cup, and the others in the squad perform well to Meyer’s liking, it will take a performance that literally breaks down the door next year to fill that jersey.

So there you have it oaks!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Oct 2014, 13:10
#2
31 Oct 2014, 13:10#2
Clueless Meyer at work.........old man Fourie will be our WC starting 13 with old man Jean at 12......what a bloody joke  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2014, 13:40
#3
31 Oct 2014, 13:40#3
 
It never ends.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 13:54
#4
31 Oct 2014, 13:54#4
 Thje issu is about Fourie - can he still run - he was as slow as a cart horse when he playedin the  EOYT tests last year and achieved bugger-all in attack.  Mase his tckles - bar in two tests where Davies ran past him becaise he was too slow to deal with him.  The WC will be two years later when he will be 32 years old.  He could not run at any speed in 2013 - how th hell is he going to do in 2015.
bad news this one - another Matfield, Gurthro and Bakkies Botha case.  Useless old farts.  
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
31 Oct 2014, 14:05
#5
31 Oct 2014, 14:05#5

What this tells more clearly is that the line between 12 and 13 is blurred. Meyer will take his best centres regardless of the actual position.


 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Oct 2014, 14:40
#6
31 Oct 2014, 14:40#6
We only have one international class centre.  
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
31 Oct 2014, 14:48
#7
31 Oct 2014, 14:48#7
 If I was Meyer, I would have said to Jacque Fourie that he will need to get at least 4 - 6 super rugby games under his belt in 2015 before even being considered for the bok selection. At least that way we would know if he still has it or should we just go with the youngster. The same would apply to JP. 
I think that Meyers backline for the first test might be the following
15 Willie14 Hendriks13 JP12 De Villiers11 Habana10 Pollard9 Hougaard 
Who do you guys thing Meyer will pick?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Oct 2014, 14:57
#8
31 Oct 2014, 14:57#8
That's the backline I'd pick. At least with JP there would be a chance of a genuine line break at 13 vs the inside stepping into the traffic. It also means we don't have to do the silly 12/13 swapping on defence, which is a confusing element.
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
31 Oct 2014, 15:01
#9
31 Oct 2014, 15:01#9
If Jaque Fourie makes the team it will be on name alone. He's done nothing since moving to Japan to suggest he deserves a spot. His test appearances last season only served to highlight his decline.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 15:17
#10
31 Oct 2014, 15:17#10
  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh  - and who made the follwoing stupid remark:-   
"At least with JP there would be a chance of a genuine line break at 13".
Lets look at his two games at center in June:-
Pietersen carried the ball 12 times - made I Line Break -  Distance carried 71 meters - beating 4 defenders - aveage distance per carry  =   5,92 meters
De Allende carried the ball 11 times - made 2 Line Breaks  - Distance carried  87 meters - average carry = 7,98 meters
When will the fool ever check his facts before he makes another wild statement bugger-up. 
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
31 Oct 2014, 15:19
#11
31 Oct 2014, 15:19#11

I think Serfontein did a decent job at 13 in the RC


Against NZ at Ellispark he had 13 carries, made 43 meters, beat 2 defenders and had one clean break, he had one try assist, one offload and made 6 passes. He completed 6 tackles, missed 2 and won a turnover. He did concede one penalty though.


Against Australia at Newlands he had 11 carries, made 35 meters, beat 5 defenders and had one clean break, he made 6 passes, one offload and got turned over once. In defence he made 10 completed tackles and missed three


The game in New Zealand was mostly a defensive affair for him where he made 19 tackles and missed 2.


In Perth he didn't have much ball, but nobody really did, but in defence he made 18 tackles missing none


He didn't play in Salta, or the first test vs Argentina.




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 15:47
#12
31 Oct 2014, 15:47#12
 biltongbek
I believe that  we do have a problem at 13 - and a serious one at that.   We have tried four centers in that position over the past year, namely -
*   Fourie - good in defense, but slow and absolutely harmless in attack; 
*   Pietersen - made on break in two tests - for the rest harmless in attack and questionable in defense;
*   De Allende - never played in that position - but show some capacity in attack - but questionable in defense.

*   Serfontein - good in defense - but showed nothing in atatck.
Ihave a prolem with F ourie - he is very slow - but a good defender - with him at 12 we will attain sero in backline attacking play.
Pietersen is a recycled wing - who failed at 13 in 2012 for the Shark and showed vvery little in that position in attacking play.   In the two tests this year the Welsh ran through and post him to score two tries in the two tests.   He has lost a lot of pace in Japan and was not very effective in Super 15 this year either.
De Allende and Serfomtein are both no 12 centers and De Allende as never played a single match at 12 since his school days.  Neither has Serfontein.
Serfotein was good in defense - but harmless in attacking play.   De Allende showed some attacking abaility - but was questionable in defense - particularly in teh rainstorm match in Pretoria.   The answer is probably between the latter two as to who should be in the no 13 position.   I think the final decision will depend on how the two of them do in Super 15 next year - with De Allende being played throughout the season at 13 for the Stormers on the request of Meyer.   
I think that we have a case where wheher t best we are quessing what is going to happen - what is clear we need the problem to be solved.         
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
31 Oct 2014, 16:01
#13
31 Oct 2014, 16:01#13

Lets guess, the Coward think Jean is our only test standard centre....what a joke, the same centre that has done stuff all all year other than botched rushes, missed tackles and a whole lot of crash balls.

 

Hell to think this clown does not rate Serfontein, easily the best young 12 in the game.

 

But lets not forget, his measure of a centre is Adi Jacobs.......ahead of the young Jaque Fourie in his prime......I kid you not.

 

Not sure if that is worse than his call for Pat Cilliers as the Bok 3

 

Good one Coward

 

SA rugby has young centres to burn......more depth at centre than any other country  

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
31 Oct 2014, 18:25
#14
31 Oct 2014, 18:25#14

Mike, I think the reason we have a problem at centre is purely due to the fact that Meyer has wasted time.


I know most disagree with me in regards to JJ, but he has the pace required to play 13, the last great 13 we had was Andre Snyman, had oodles of pace and a great step.


The issue we need to look at is the centre pairings of NZ and Australia as they will be our likely quarter and semi finalist opposition.


Australia will most likely have Lealiifano and Kurindrani and NZ Sonny Bill and Conrad Smith.


Who do we have that can better them?


If we look at 12, Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein, Damien de Allende, Andre Esterhuize


If we look at 13, Juan du Jongh, Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Stokkies Hanekom, William Small Smith.


Not exactly a shortage of capable men.


But Meyer is stuck with Jean de Villiers.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 20:18
#15
31 Oct 2014, 20:18#15
 Bilongbk 
I am always worried about a player of 33 plus years of age.   Jean de Villiers was very good last year and iffy this year - plagued by injurties as well.   Can we really build a center combination around a 33 year old - soon to be 34.
It would not have bothered me if De Villiers - a classy player at his prme - would continue to show the class he still showed as late as last year.   I always championed his cause - but thisyear I got cold feet.   
One of the things that bothers me - and it happens constantly - is that DE Villiers go out of the defensive line and always gaps - which good opposition centers will always explot.
I would not mins seeing either Serfontein or De Allende at 12 in the place of De Villiers.
Insofar as the 13 position is concerned I think there are two categories of players here - those who are and have been playing 13 for years and then the recycled ones - especially erstwhile wings.   Looking at Fourie's performances in tes last year - I am horrified by the mere idea to have him at 13.   His defense was sound - the rest of his game of zero value.   The NZ players always maintain that the Japanese club rugby is "soft" - much less demanding thatn Super 15.  The result is that the players go "soft"    We have seen the result with Peter Grant and even JP Pitersen whoo lost a heck of a lot of pace in Japan.   F urie is also a pace-loser of note.  
Of the players who regularly played at 13 - I would say the pick is really between Stokkies hanekom adn Paul Jordaan<  I have serious reservations about De Jongh and even JJ - but for different reasons.    De Jongh was very por when he played tests in 2012 and his defense hads been unacceptable - he has the hghest missed tckle ratio of any  SA center.   Jordaan is better on creating space for other players and has a sounder defensive record.   As for JJ - he cannot seem to understand that players should not run a line straight at the first defender - that kills his attacking abilities.   
Hopefully something will be sorete dout in Super 15 next year and he few tes ts to be played before the WC,  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 Oct 2014, 20:20
#16
31 Oct 2014, 20:20#16
Snyman actually had no step, more of a swerve. He was very fast, outran Geoff Wilson on a 50 metre chase. He was also much stronger physicallly than JJ.
We have a problem at centre because every player HM tried has not put up their hand.
I know you are a Steppie/ JJ fan but if they can't impress in the S15, how will they do that in tests.
My read is JJ lacks upper body strength. He also lacks instinct, a sense of where to be to impact the game. He is not a competitor, the kind of guy who wants the ball when the chips are down.

Steppie is a better bet. He reads the game better and he is more competitive. But he doesn't have a long suit. He isn't particularly strong and at best average in speed. So he steps off his right foot a lot. 

I have no answers, but we have to keep looking.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 20:49
#17
31 Oct 2014, 20:49#17
 Mozart
I actually met Andre Snyman and he had a strong upper body - but whether he was faster than Engelbrecht is debatable.   There is not much differnece between their weights either and from the photos I have seen of Engelbrecht I think they were more or less the same build.   
I agree with you about JJ lacking instinct - he runs straight at the first defender - something that should be varied and not applied all the time.   JJ is not a player that impresses me as a thinking player - more an automaton.
Incidentally Snyman hada eg problem - I think he broke his leg twice and after the second one never made a return to international rugby.   
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
31 Oct 2014, 21:25
#18
31 Oct 2014, 21:25#18

Mike just remember JJ played for the Boks when Morne was flyhalf, which meant the space available  was limited, plus by the time Jean gave him the ball there was really nowhere to run, I would like to see JJ in more space from a flatter attack.


In the Ellispark test last year he had a good match on attack, 10 runs, 96 meters, beat 4 defenders and had a clean break.


I think you are under rating him. But then it seems Meyer as well.


SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
31 Oct 2014, 21:33
#19
31 Oct 2014, 21:33#19
 I am really looking forward to seeing Stokkie's and De Allende at 13 in next years Super 15, hoping one or both will shine.
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
31 Oct 2014, 21:39
#20
31 Oct 2014, 21:39#20
 I'm agreement with BB and Dave with regards to JJ. He's not been given a fair crack after a decent debut test season. Also, De Allende seems to have all the attributes to be a good 13.
I would like to see come RWC
15. Le Roux 14. JP13. JJ12. Serf (wouldn't mind Jean either)11. Habana10. Pollard9. Du Preez8. Vermuelen7. Louw6. Coetzee5. PSDT4. Etzebeth3. ?2. Bismarck1. Beast
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 21:57
#21
31 Oct 2014, 21:57#21
 Biltongbek
 Anybody playing outside either Morne Steyn or Fat Fransie has a huge han dicap he has to overcome.   Agreed.   
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 21:57
#22
31 Oct 2014, 21:57#22
 Biltongbek
 Anybody playing outside either Morne Steyn or Fat Fransie has a huge han dicap he has to overcome.   Agreed.   
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2014, 22:04
#23
31 Oct 2014, 22:04#23
 APD 
Pietersen looked like a scared rabit in the headlights when he came from the ebnch in the Ellis Park test and he did squat in that test - I forgot he missed a crucial tackle - and gave away a penalty.
He lost a lot of pace in Japan and took some time to recover some of it in Super 15 - he still is pace-deficient.   Japaese Club rugby is not the place to keep top fitness - that being said by NZ players who go there to make an easy buck or rahter a lot of easy bucks.
Are you sure he would be able to do the job?.

BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
31 Oct 2014, 22:08
#24
31 Oct 2014, 22:08#24
Both JP Pietersen and Jaque Fourie has completely lost form and have been very disappointing 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
31 Oct 2014, 22:36
#25
31 Oct 2014, 22:36#25
I think Jaque Fourie should be given a few games to be sure of his form. 
He is probably/surely still the best defensive outside centre in South Africa, and we do not have many other options at 13. Jean and Serfontein were alternating the position, but more and more Jan was on the inside. 
A combination of Jan Serfontein (inside) and Jaque Fourie (outside) would be impregnable on defense. 
Although Jean and Jaque Fourie could make a good combination as well for 2015.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
31 Oct 2014, 23:37
#26
31 Oct 2014, 23:37#26
 Jan was always outside of Jean on attack. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Nov 2014, 05:08
#27
01 Nov 2014, 05:08#27
 Sharkbok
We have been through this one before.   Defense by cneters is not the only aspect to be borne in mind.   Playing outside of Morne Steyn - t was theonly thing SA centers in fact had to do.   There is the issue of using the centers as attackers as well and that is where Fourie came short - and drastically so - in his last three tests.   
Based on teh defense-orientated only approach we will get nowhere fast.  In the end the teams who use that approach always come short.    
When Jean de Villiers was on Boots&All on Thursday they asked him about changes to the laws over the past deecade - and he said that the changes were in fact massive and had a serious impact on the ame lan to be used.    An approach that paid dividneds in for instance the 2007 and earlier WC's - will not work anymore.   So you need - as he said - to adjust your strategies to tie in with the law changes and if we think that we only use an  one-dimensional defense strategy only - we are going to go nowhere fast.    
I think Meyer has cottoned on to that one - hence the move away for the kick-and-chase game of Morne Steyn and other similar type of flyhalfs - and a much more attacking backline play strategy.   So the so-called "combination of Jan Serfontein (inside) and Jaque Fourie (outside) would be impregnable on defense"  issue is for the birds and from a comprehensive perspective absolute crap, since bot players are not even remotely competnet from an attacking perspective - F ouie in fact is medicore at present.   
— END OF THREAD —

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