Bok Barometer after the Quarters

Lambie
CombrinkMapoeJanse van RensburgSkosanJantjiesFafRedlinghuisMarxSmithEtzebethSnymanKrielStephanieWhiteley
I'm afraid Willie's performance yesterday was simply not worthy of a Bok 15.....he has lost the magic. His defence is increasingly feeble.
Likewise Allende has gone the way of JJ, Kriel, Step and Esterhosen.....enough of his bumbling. And enough of the defence that lost the WC semi....so evident when he was easily rounded yesterday for a Chiefs try.
I'm convinced Mapoe and Jantjies won't be long term answers, but there are none better this year....certainly not Lambie who has never been convincing at 10.
Nor can we afford Malherbe or Koch.....we can't tell ahead of time whether they will collapse yielding penalties. We don't have a tighthead , and Redlinghuis is the form player....give him a shot.
And Stephanie, finally facing a NZ pack was tossed around like a toothpick yesterday. He did some good things in the loose, but as a lock he was dominated.
And while Whiteley wasn't at his best yesterday, he is the one player in SA rugby who seems committed to winning, so he gets my vote.

Springbok backline- 
15. Combrink. We need a boot at the back. Leroux is a liability with his pop kick up and under's in the 22- when simplify kicking the ball out is all that is required.
14. JP. Not a long term answer, but is still better than most other options. 
11. Willie Leroux. To frail for the last line offence- and his kicking has become a liability. 

13. Mapoe

12. JVR. A playmaker that is also fast and strong. Delande off the bench.
10. Jantjies
9 Faff

 

Mozart

Our good member  can be relied upon to always have his disliked players out of sight.   Realistic he will never be - that is for sure.   After attacking the Lions severely  for  the past two years - his favoured players are suddenly the same players he denigrated endlessly previously.    

Since he puts in Snyman – who has not had a top class game for a while now because of injury – ome has to wonder about his sanity, 

Looking at the European comps as well – I would say thus far this year rhe barometer should be as follows:-

15  Johann Goosen, 14  Ruan Combrinck, 13 Lionel  Mapoe, 12 Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11 JP Pietersen ,  10 Elton Jantjies, 9  Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Warwick Tecklenburg, 6 Jaco Kriel, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4  Eben Etzebeth, 3 Julian Esterhuizen,  3 Malcolm Marx, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Bench would be –

16 Adriaan Strauss, 17 Dillyn Smith, 18 Frans Malherbe, 19 RG Snyman, 20 Skuna Notshe, 21 Ross Cronje, 22 Patrick Lambie, 23 Damian de Allende     

Where was Eben yesterday? Am i the only one who thinks that we are deceived by his physique into thinking that he is better than he is? Been waitijg all season to see the World 15 lock come into his own and aside from slightly above average S18 performances against weak teams...he has not arrived. Against the Irish he did very little of value also. Why does everyone rate this guy? When is he gonna love up to the hype? He was one of the most experienced players on the park for the Stormers yesterday and nothing came of it. My feeling is that he stands up to pose before the game but when it comes time to be counted he's nowhere to be found.

PS Red, Marx, Smith. That's the Bok front row. Gotta be.

"15  Johann Goosen" 
Well, what do you know!

 Yep notice Goosen now at 15....Janse van Rensburg quietly put in place of Allende....no more Jantjies bashing....miracle of miracles the useless Malherbe gone.....the Beast retained, the picture postcard of an out of form reputation player.....and no Liggies.
A seismic shift for Old Tokkie...it must have been a bitter pill.

 Perhaps Plum, this will help you understand the relative contributions:
921-----104Eben Etzebeth-2911--2----5Pieter-Steph du Toit-713--813--

Eben carried for more metres than any other tight forward in the game, including Retallik....and unlike the toothpick Stephanie, never lost the ball 3 times.
And unlike Bird, Retallik or Stephanie....he stole a lineout.
He was also heavily involved in the tough stuff....not always grandstanding like his partner.

Mozart, the defensive stats are not so good for Eben or PSDT.

4 tackles for Eben for the entire game. PSDT made 6

Bird made 12 and Retallick made 11. 

Looks like Etzabeth was taking a break from defensive duties 

 Well the Chiefs made 159 tackles to 96 for the Stormers. But I agree the tackle count was a bit low.

 Mozart is a dismal myth - useless as per normal.   He has been anti certain players for years.   So what he comes up with is as illogical as is his believe that breakdown ball protection and recovery is not important in the game of rugby Look at the squad doffies - also the bench

 1. Steven Kitshoff, 2. Malcolm Marx, 3. Julian Redelinghuyse, 4. Eben Etzebeth, 5. Franco Mostert, 6. Jaco Kriel (cpt), 7. PSDT, 8. Duane Vermeulen, 9. Faff De Klerk, 10. Pat Lambie, 11. Koch Marx, 12. Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 13.  Harold Vorster, 14. Ruan Combrinck, 15. Sylvian Mahuza
16. Edgar Marutllule, 17. Dylan Smith, 18. Ruan Dreier, 19. RG Snyman, 20. Warren Whiteley, 21. Ross Cronje, 22. Elton Jantjies, 23. Francois Venter. 

 Your side looks a bit pale, CC.

  CC's favourite song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aizCMO-mI1Q

 Allende and Malherbe now clinging to the Tokkie bench.....last year they were the best 12 and the best young tighthead in the world.
Where Step goes can Allende be far behind........hahaha. 

Reading through the articles today.....destructive hype  is seeping in again, mostly about Lions players. Yes a goodly number of these should be Boks, but Tecklenburg and Mostert? 
I know Mostert got a lot of kudos in the tests, but he was a liability in the last stand in the 3rd test. He is not a test lock. Both Tecklenburg and Mostert are crucial to the Lions team.....are playing outstanding rugby at Super level. We have better options at Bok level.

And I'm all for trying Janse van Rensburg.....but has nobody looked at his defensive stats. Even on Saturday he missed a third of his tackles. He has work to do on his defence.

The point being enthusiasm is fine, but realistic enthusiasm is less likely to lead to disappointment.

 If Janse van Rensburg's improved performance is due to the coaching of Swys Joubert, I feel more optimistic over the future performance of the Bok backline. So, I would not be too critical at this stage on De Ellendeling future potential with the Boks (Nice move Allister Coetzee to pull Swys into the Boks coaching staff).
My issue is with the forwards.Beast is still OKish but I doubt whether he would be able to maintain the required level up to the next WC. I would say, bite the bullet now and get who you think may do well from now till 2019. Kitshoff and Dylan Smith seems to fit the bill.Adriaan Strauss is at his sell by date stamp and doubtful if he can improve from here. Marx is ahead by a mile with Bissie trying to gather some money to help with the farming in Bethlehem and thus not a real contender. Other qoutas are just there to make up the numbers.The cupboard is rather empty for tightheads. Redelinghuys seems to be a viable option while the Cheetah prop shows promising signs. Marcel, Malherbe and Coenie are both goners.At 8 Whiteley appears to be the en.cu.mbent but Thor may prove to be still a worthy sub.Faf is a certainty at 9.I am not a fan of Goosen, but many still rate him. So, to satisfy all, it could be a good idea to test him in a Bok test. Jantjies and Lambino remain my preferred choices.   

Duplicate 

Sensible stuff Blik....Goosen deserves another look, he has paid his dues in France and seems to be past his injury issues. But to me 15 is the best option.  

 In these troubled times we need a lekker long 'comfort list' from ouDawie, reminding us of the abundance of wonderful young talented players that we have, if only the fuck fuck fuck coaches had a clue .

 Let me see centres.....JJ best centre since Danie Gerber.....Stepfontein, much more talented than old man Jean......Taute he never missed Israel Dagg.....Esterhozen, he's not heavy he's my brother....Kriel the man from Kyoto......Kobus van Wyk, not a wing, really a 13 in disguise.....Allende, made Sonny Bill take up sevens.....Mapoe, the Irish gevaar.....Craig Burden a hooker outside centre hybrid that Dawie thought was destined for greatness and good old Dawie himself, buggered shoulder, heavy enough, and faster than Wynand any day.

 Clearly Mostert isn't a favourite of yours ... tell me why? I will need a little more than "but he was a liability in the last stand in the 3rd test" before I discard him as a chump. 
I rate him as a top tier 5 with an incredible work rate ... a player who just doesn't know when to quit ... always in the mix ... always contributing .... doing the dirty work ... physical ... gets go forward ... distributes well ... plays for the full 80 ... unlike most other locks in the country ... 
He's streets ahead of Lood. 
Yes he is key to the Lions effort and I would go as far as to say that one of the reasons the Lions have done as well as they have is because of what he brings to the park.
Why wouldn't you want that?
Even your man Snyman cannot compete with Mostert ... we've seen it for ourselves all season long ... or have I missed something ... ??
Tecklenburg is a good solid SR player ... a great Lion. We do however need a lot more from our test 7.   

I suppose your still favouring Steyn for the Bok 12 jersey, right? 
I cannot think of a worse player in that position than Frans "BrainFart" Steyn. 
Goosen ... really??? You guys wanna give him another shot? LOL!!!
Much rather he stay where he is ... far, far away from our shores. 


 

 I enjoyed your musical contribution, Blob. 
Thanks. 

 Just have the Lions team swap their jumpers for the Bok o ne and be done with it

 Agreed ... apart from a few here and there ... 

 Was Mozart not the oe who wrote last year that Meyer is right about excluding Lions players from the Springbok squad?   Was he not the one who earlier this year was condemning the Lions playing style - ignoring the away win against the Chiefs and claiming the Blues were substandard and the losses against the Hurricanes, Highlanders and Hurricanes were all that counts?   This guy is a great one who attacks posters about what they write - but who regards himself as never bein in the wrong.   Yes - CC - Fat Fransie is Mozart's first choice center.  

CC, you're welcome & I watched 'Trouble with the Curve' over the weekend . Good movie. I've seen better from Eastwood, 'Gran Torino', 'Million Dollar Babe' & 'Unforgiven' . Seems his performance improves when he's the director as well . Hard to believe he's 86 years old .

 Yeah ... he's a talented man. 
86 and still going strong. 
Love his movies. Gran Torino is a brilliant show. Think I'll watch it again tonight.
You seem to have an interest in movies. A collector per chance?
Have you seen "The Road" with Viggo Mortensen? How about "The Edge" with Anthony Hopkins?

Nope at this stage Janse van Rensburg is our best option at 12....I actually came around to this view after he face planted Stepfontein before the Irish tests. All I'm saying is his defence needs work, but unlike Kriel and Allende, he has decent tackling technique.
As for Mostert he is the perfect cog in the Lions' machine but is he the best option for the Boks? I think not....he is already  red lining with effort every game, there is no more to give. In tests everybody plays flat out, effort players as we saw with  Coetzee for example, stand out less.
I was the first Lomp detractor. I still think Stephanie is man handled by more aggressive packs....he was nowhere on Saturday. My own view is Etzebeth has the athleticism to be a potent 5, which would allow us to play one of the huge blocky 4s like Willemse.  Giving us the basis for a power pack.
But that's old, discredited school.....for the moment.

 You specialize in th statement that Du Toit being manhandled - yet that did not apply to Kiewiet Matfield who was no factor ever in Tight 5 pay.   Your comments are basically laughable - since it is based on BS prejudice.   You carry on about some players - but most of that garbage has nothing to do with performance - but with prejudice.   Useless stuff to be quite frank.   Now the question remains - are you not the person who supported Meyer when he said he is not selecting Lions players?   Have you not been writing books about the Lions game plan is airy-fairy stuff as little as three months ago?  Are you not the person who wrote that the Lions are sub-standard because they have lost against the Highlanders and the Hurricanes?       

 Come now, Mozart ... you'll need to do better than that.
Is it perhaps just another case of not liking the man that has you setting him aside?
It can't be his standard of play. 
As far as I'm concerned he's pushing PSDT for the 5 jersey. 

 CC - When will Harold Vorster be back?   He was one of the best last year.  

Like doesn't enter the picture. I respect Mostert and would have no problem for him playing for the Boks....but with Etzebeth, Snyman, Stephanie, Willemse we have similarly  skilled players that also have a physical edge.
I exclude Lomp from that group....an example of a big guy who tends to disappear when the going gets tough.
In the Lions system Mostert offsets the size disadvantage with effort and smarts....good on him. The Boks is a different ball game where energy should be a given and any of my optional players should be effective within the system. 
Assuming that's right,  I prefer the extra 8 kgs and two inches from a Snyman

• A

 Mozart - I agree with you here as to the physical deficiency of Mostert.   He is much more active than Matfield - basically having the same physique - but I think he is too light for the job.  

 Mostert is no Matfield.

Matfield after 2011 was piss poor - Mostert a t present is definitely not so.

 Tokkie as I have said many a time....we know your views on our RWC 2007 winners, now it's up to the next generation to perform. The display against Ireland was a poor start.

Mostert should be given a shot at 7- although he is going overseas soon. Like Matfield - they both more suited to 7 play. 

Well there are two ways to go. You have an athletic lock, a more mobile lock....like Matfield or Mostert. But then at test level you need a power loosie , like Alberts.
Or for  those who reject everything about the Boks, you have Itoje who is a small athletic lock......and a power loosie like Vunipola.
The other way to go is to play these guys at blind side. In truth Itoje weighs exactly the same as Juan Smith and stands a cm shorter. Yet he is the new world find in the second row.
But if you go that way, the rest of your loosie trio has to be mobile and great on the ground.

 This is hilarious in two ways.   The first one is that the 2007 players remained on the 2007 level of performance and was not affected by advancing years.   The second one is that locks should be used as number 7 loosies.   Alberts for instance had the lowest tackle count and was never in time to play a role at breakdowns, never protected or recovered balls, but on paper he had to be in to off-set the deficiency of locks like Kruger and Matfield in Tight 5 play.   Locks are locks and loosies are loosies.  A major part of the success of the Lions is the fact that they have a very mobile and good loosie combination in Whiteley, Tecklenberg and Kriel.   Basic rugby knowledge is missing here.