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FORUM / RUGBY /  Bok lock conundrum?

Bok lock conundrum?

Started by Beeno116 REPLIES324 VIEWS· 31 Oct 2013, 10:28
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Oct 2013, 10:28
#1
31 Oct 2013, 10:28#1

Ex Supersport

The future success of the Springbok rugby team at the 2015 Rugby World Cup could depend very much on how well Bok coach Heyneke Meyer gels his new lock combination on the upcoming tour of Wales, Scotland and France.

Meyer has been at pains to stress his concern over the lack of a five lock in South Africa at the moment and, while Franco van der Merwe and Juandre Kruger have done duty there in the Castle Lager Rugby Championship, both have been dropped from the squad in favour of four locks who all are natural jumpers in the number four jersey.

With no real alternatives and Andries Bekker still unavailable in Japan, Meyer has opted for a different route, trying to gel youthful exuberance with good old fashioned brawn on this tour to ensure he hopefully strikes gold with two young turks that could take South Africa to the next Rugby World Cup.

While Flip van der Merwe is still the current front-runner for the number five jersey – having filled in more than once this season in the position – the performance under pressure by Pieter-Steph du Toit has won him admiration in the five jersey and has underlined the fact he may well become the long-term candidate for Meyer in that position.

However, it isn’t as simple as that. Du Toit never took ownership of the lineout calls in the Absa Currie Cup final, despite his impressive showing.

Eben Etzebeth was probably the most consistent forward in the entire Rugby Championship and his place is definitely not in danger.

Bakkies Botha’s experience and guile at this level will be an added bonus and there will be a lot that the younger players in the squad can learn from him. For the experienced campaigner to break into the starting line-up will be tough.

Just how Meyer will balance the talent at his disposal with the need to secure good first phase ball at the set-piece will be the most interesting poser from this tour. If it works then the Boks have a young lock duo that can grow in stature, and have the added backup of Botha, Van der Merwe and Kruger as well.(Hardly the latter two)

Du Toit has yet to make his Test debut and, if one considers the fact that Etzebeth’s place is secure, it is likely that Van der Merwe will be partnered with Etzebeth for the Welsh test, especially as that may well be the toughest date on tour.

That would leave Du Toit and Botha as the candidates from the bench, where the weather may well make the decision for Meyer on who to pick.

The biggest question is, if Meyer does try to go with the two young locks, just who will make the lineout calls and who will take the five jersey. The Boks may employ a similar tactic to the Sharks and have Etzebeth make the calls from four, or they may move him to five with Du Toit taking the four jersey. Etzebeth has played at five for the Stormers and some see him as a future five.

Either way, the days of having a lanky lineout option at five and a bruiser at four seem to be over (HOORAH HOW DEALY DID WEE MATFIELD COST US AS WE PLAYED WITH A TIGHT 4 FOR A DECADE!!!!!). The Boks are plotting their way forward with physicality in both positions and trying to carve out a solution that secures them enough lineout ball and adds their options in the loose. (WAY TO GO!)

It is an exciting proposition and Meyer has been contemplating what to do for a while now. What he decides going forward could turn a potential weakness back into a brute strength for the Boks.

After all, he isn’t likely to tinker with a pack that worked so well in the setpieces otherwise. Gurthro Steenkamp may see some action in an attempt to give Tendai Mtawarira a rest and Jannie du Plessis’ injury is still a concern but other than that, the status quo will remain for the rest of the pack.

The lock conundrum requires a bit of a gamble; one that could pay off big time. Injuries and weather aside, this may well be the perfect time to make that gamble count.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2013, 10:42
#2
31 Oct 2013, 10:42#2
 
Apart from the occasional headbutt, eye gouging and kick in the ribs, Bakkies is a very powerful scrummager and could be an ace up the sleeve. 

Meyer is a Bull through and through and as we all know, matches are won or lost upfront.

If we dominate the set piece we put ourselves on the front foot and that could only produce positive results.

I honestly don't understand why everyone's so negative about this. I reckon Wales are in for the high jump.

 




JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Oct 2013, 10:51
#3
31 Oct 2013, 10:51#3
Du Toit looks has a lot of potential for sure & the pairing of him & Etzebeth could be a great one for some time once established.  
Abs are fine at lock with Whitelock being well established and the other lock position being less so. To me the ABs overall pack is more cohesive and they play more as a total package but we could do with a hard man type lock to work with Whitelock.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2013, 10:58
#4
31 Oct 2013, 10:58#4

Beeno

 

Who wrote this hogwash?   I will take just one sentence out of it :-

 

"However, it isn’t as simple as that. Du Toit never took ownership of the lineout calls in the Absa Currie Cup final, despite his impressive showing."

 

Du Toit did make the line out calls and I cannot remember a single line out lost by the Sharks in the CC final.

 

The second point is that Flip van der Merwe is useless in line-outs - whether at 4 or at 5 and Kruger was preferred to him in the Ellis Park test - where one of our most important problems were in the line outs.   So why should a player like him be accepted ahead of a really good line out jumper - Du Toit?   Bakkies is also no good at 5 and they will have to shift Etzebeth to five to accommodate him.   Not a good option to shift your best lock and I would say in essence the writer is wrong. in respect of selection of Flip and Bakkies.   Aside from line outs Du  Toit is a much better all round player than both Van der Merwe  and Bakkies could ever be - less likely to be card and penalty givers than either of the two mentioned .  Better in ball carries and defence,  as well as under high balls because he is - like Etzebeth - much more athletic than Botha and Flippie could ever dream to be.  

 

It is time to go with Etzebeth and Du Toit and forget about the past.        

 

  

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:03
#5
31 Oct 2013, 11:03#5
You guys have a settled team ... we do not. That much is clear.

If we did Meyer wouldn't still be looking around. He's not happy at the moment but he's a lot closer to what he'd like than he was last season.

I thought Retallick made huge leaps this season. Certainly impressed me as a ball carrier. He's about the best hard man you guys have. Not quite in the same mould as Eben but should still do you proud.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:13
#6
31 Oct 2013, 11:13#6

Just_win

 

The AB's tight five is their only real headache - their loosies are magnificent.   They do not really have top class props and there hooker is not remotely international level material.   Whitelock - not the best as an international rugby lock - but acceptable - being the only AB player in the  tight five who really is top notch.   Retallick is poor in line outs and contributes very little in tight phases of the game -  I prefer Romano to him.   Maybe Bird will come through as a good enough partner for Whitelock - Sasue rates him highly - but I have seen only a limited number of games in Super 15  where he played and was decidedly average in performance -  the jury is out on that one.  

 

 

 

   

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:21
#7
31 Oct 2013, 11:21#7
 ou maaaikie get with it please. Etzebeth has already played 5 and was great there so NO PROBLEM.Ab loose trio is nothing to shout about. Wee macaaw is no good and messam bog ordinary. read is okay in a loose game. abs are vastly overrated. Abs pack is bog ordinary hence dominated by Boks and Poms. Even Oz gave them a going over in the last test. 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:25
#8
31 Oct 2013, 11:25#8
 
No I disagree ... Bakkies was an outstanding 4 lock. A great defender, a great ball carrier, an enforcer second to none, who cleaned out at the ruck like nobody could, a very powerful scrummager, an excellent asset to Bok rugby.

To dismiss him as though he was a piece of shit is disrespectful and quite frankly gets my goat.

The advantage we have is that Eben can play at 5 easily as well and that opens up many options for a super sub during the second half. 

Stop being so damn narrow minded. This is the 21st century. Time you joined the rest of the planet in your thinking.

Flip is not Bok material but he was probably the best Meyer could work with.

Franco is not Bok material but certain circumstances forced Meyer's hand in selecting him.

It seems you've swallowed your narrow minded, horseshit producing, delusional,  fabrication pill again this morning.


CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:30
#9
31 Oct 2013, 11:30#9
 
For crying out loud ... What the hell is wrong with Crockett and Franks, huh?

Did you watch the All Blacks this RC? Doesn't look like it. How you can say Retallick is poor in the lineout and doesn't carry well is beyond me.

Wake up man!!!

 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:56
#10
31 Oct 2013, 11:56#10

Whitelock is really good IMO and works well with Retallic. Still think we need a hard(er) lock to put in the mix as and when needed but Retallic is still building bulk. Retallic is having a great season and is really good with ball in hand. Both of them make a high amount of tackles and are high up in the early arrivals at the breakdown.

 

Agree that Romano or Bird could be the answer for adding mongrel as needed. I am very interested to see how Bird develops.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2013, 11:59
#11
31 Oct 2013, 11:59#11

 Come now Cleancut

 

Bakkies was great at 30 - is he still so at 34?  That is my question.  Bakkies was always a strong ball carrier in traffic - not in more open lines of play - not the athletic type - rather the strong slow type.

 

I am not sure he can still make the grade - am not shooting him down. "To dismiss him as though he was a piece of shit is disrespectful and quite frankly gets my goat."   Wrong I do not dismiss him in the way you suggested.

 

As to Crocket and Franks - the most regular penalty machine props in World Rugby - they remain a problem for the AB's - sad to differ from you there.

 


 

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Oct 2013, 12:06
#12
31 Oct 2013, 12:06#12

Crocket gets pinged a lot but has great mobility and a big engine. Franks is a world class prop.

 

You notice that the ABs keep on winning even when the starting props are not available and even though we have a weakness at hooker.

 

Total team approach and ability to exploit weaknesses in other teams (we have the overall skill level to do this in many different ways).

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Oct 2013, 12:29
#13
31 Oct 2013, 12:29#13
 Clever Trevor back pedalling about Bakkies again. You have done nothing but "dismiss" post after post after post. First you said that you have watched him and that he was crap. Then you said that he does  not even start for his club any more. When I showed you that you were horribly wrong on that one, you turned around  and  said that you did not see him play because he could have been subbed when you watched the games. You also said  that you do not watch the full games either. How does that add up. This is effectively what you have said:

  1. You watched him and he was crap.
  2. He does not even start for his club anymore.
  3. Oh, OK. He does start but you haven't seen him play because he was subbed? Huhhh? See point no 1.
  4. He is also a liability because of his discipline. You have seen him  getting carded for "dirty play" (your won words). I listed each  and every game  that Bakkies  has  played this season. Not a  single card. I have asked you to name  the game that he was carded in. Nothing. Zilch. Silence.


You have been confident that it would not work with Bakkies. Suddenly  you have decided  that you are not sure...........

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
31 Oct 2013, 14:47
#14
31 Oct 2013, 14:47#14
 
Surely you mean prop not lock regarding Franks.

Either that or it would explain why you guys aren't showing form at lock. Me thinks you may need a lock that's just a little taller ... just a smidge ...


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Oct 2013, 15:31
#15
31 Oct 2013, 15:31#15

 CC: yeah I made a mistake & i corrected it - too early in the morning when I made that post, lol

 

Still feels early and it's 12:31 glad we get tomorrow off.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 Oct 2013, 16:07
#16
31 Oct 2013, 16:07#16

 Ceradyne

 

Brainless as per normal.   I would rather have the unknown quantity - Botha - on the bench - than the known player Van der Merwe - the penalty and card specialist.   Better still - I would prefer Botha and Van der Merwe no to be in the squad at all.   One is way past his sell-by date and the other is a liability.  

 

None bar Louw - a younger player at 27 years of age - of the NH players utilized thus far really had the best form in the games they played in - both Steenkamp and Du Preez ran out of gas - Steenkamp in all his tests and Du Preez in the Ellis Park test, while Pienaar was lukewarm in all the tests he played in.   What makes you think the 34-year old Botha would be any different?     

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
31 Oct 2013, 16:57
#17
31 Oct 2013, 16:57#17
 Hahahaha. Well done ou Maaikie. You have come up with another deep dive, bringing in Flip  van der Merwe. Having said that, I see we are making progress. We have come  from Bakkies not starting for his  club to him to him not going to be able to up due to limited game time to him getting carded for dirty play to "....I would rather have the unknown quantity - Botha - on the bench - than the known player Van der Merwe - the penalty and card specialist...."

I have not even mentioned Flip van der Merwe. You are a fucking joke mate.

Why don't you just try and   stick to  one issue at a time, rather than jumping around  like a cat on a hot tin roof?


Just look at this part from my previous post to see just how you have been jumping around on this subject:

"This is effectively what you have said:

  1. You watched him and he was crap.
  2. He does not even start for his club anymore.
  3. Oh, OK. He does start but you haven't seen him play because he was subbed? Huhhh? See point no 1.
  4. He is also a liability because of his discipline. You have seen him  getting carded for "dirty play" (your won words). I listed each  and every game  that Bakkies  has  played this season. Not a  single card. I have asked you to name  the game that he was carded in. Nothing. Zilch. Silence.


You have been confident that it would not work with Bakkies. Suddenly  you have decided  that you are not sure..........."


— END OF THREAD —

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