My side would be:
15. Lambie 14. Engelbrecht 13. JP 12. Frans 11. Habana 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Kitshoff 2. Bismark 3. Malherbe 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. Vermeulen 8. Spies 16. v/Zyl 17. Taute 18. Mvovo 19. Coenie 20. Chiliboy 21. Elstadt/Flip 22. Coetzee/J.Strauss/J.Potgieter
Saffex - I really am amazed. Engelbrecht at 14 - what about Basson? And Pietyersen at 13 - where he definitely does not belong - he cannot be taught at this late stage of his career how to pass balls and defend in a number 13 position..
Where is MorneSteyn in your calculations? Coming from you I would expect so see him on the bench or have you lost your Bull support tag. However, Goosen is the real deal and he is where he should be.
Also surprised about Malherbe - like the guy - know him personally and is a friend of his father. However, he comes on from the bench normally and in a few years time would be an automatic selection - but is he in line at this stage?
Spies is a no-no. No idea about the game and his role in it. Vermeulen is better and we have very good flank forwards that performed better - leave Vermeulen at 8 and get another loosie - maybe Elstadt or Coetzee or Potgieter..
Very nice team saffex, but i would have Gio Aplon at 14!
15. Lambie 14. Engelbrecht 13. JP 12. Frans 11. Habana 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Kitshoff 2. Bismark 3. Malherbe 4. Etzebeth 5. Bekker 6. Brussouw 7. Vermeulen 8. Spies 16. v/Zyl 17. Taute 18. Mvovo 19. Coenie 20. Chiliboy 21. Elstadt/Flip 22. Coetzee/J.Strauss/J.Potgieter
Some bold calls Dave. My main complaint would b ethe loose trio. No Schalk!!! The SA player of the year in 2011. Add in Burger at at 6 and Elstadt at 7. Malherbe is a strong scrummager and I noticed he has upped his work rate. Better than Jannie right now. I note Alistair is still preferring the hard working Harris - gets through a mountain of work.
It is actually a Stormers pack with Bissie the exception. Here' s a thought play the full Stormers pack inluding Schalk - you can't go wrong! 935 kg. Bissie on the bench!!!! A ready made pack to face the poms.
Maak al die Stormers pack bokke! Meyer are you listening!
Mike, Basson is not physical enough for test rugby and has always failed at that level. JJ Engelbrecht is a class act and has really impressed me this season.
JP has been good at 13 all season so have no issue with him there at all.
Yes Malherbe is the best young tighthead we have and given Jannie is at best solid this season, I'd get the young kid in there. I dont believe in that crap philosophy that some players are too young for test rugby - the younger the better I say. Kitshoff, Etzebeth and Malherbe are ready for test rugby.
Mike I am not a Bulls supporter, I support all SA sides. As for Morne, I dont rate him at all. The guy has no flair or creativity - all he can do is kick
Beeno, one certainty is that I would never ever play Schalk at 6, not while Brussouw and Daniel are walking. Schalk is good, but some youngsters are proving better. My loose trio stays as it is. Vermeulen would have to drop out because of injury, but not an issue as Josh, Coetzee, CJ Stander or J.Potgieter would fit in nicely.
No thanks there is no way in hell Harris and Liebenberg would ever win test caps under me. Harris is average to poor and Liebenberg is a stupid player who concedes penalties galore
Not bad saffex.
My team:
15) Lambie
14) Aplon
13) Ebersohn
12) Steyn
11) Habana
10) Goosen
9) Hougaard
8) Vermeulen
7) J Potgieter
6) Brussow
5) Kruger
4) Etzebeth
3) Jannie (Nobody else actually put their hand up(
2) Bismarck
1) Greyling
16) Kitshoff
17)Chilliboy
18) Bekker
19)Cj Stander
20) Duvenhage
21) Grant / Morne
22) Engelbrecht
I like your side bar Aplon and Ebersohn. Both not physical enough for test rugby. Bekker is better than Kruger as well
Disagree about Aplon he showed he is good enough.
The reason I picked Ebersohn is because he has been the best 13 in SA at the moment. Think he deserves a chance so that we can see what he is capable of at test rugby level.
Kruger and Bekker for me is neck and neck at the moment.
Our RWC starters completely outplayed Aus and had a great chance to win the RWC barring the bounce of the rugby ball. And now we start with a clean sheet? Meyer wont do that and nor would any sensible coach.
Take that team. Replace Fury with Jean and bring Fransie into 12.....improvement
Put Hougaard in for 2011 vintage F du Preez....improvement
Replace Steenkamp with the Beast.....improvement
Start with Bismarck.....improvement
Bring in Etzebeth, the smart giant who plays as physically as everybody mistakenly thought Danie or even Bakkies played.....improvement.
Replace Susspies withan eigthman who tackles and contributes in the tight/loose....big improvement
So there we have six improvements to a team that was good enough to win the rugby world cup. Any coach looking at an incremental opportunity like that will be licking his chops.
Let me repeat, the newbies need to be honed for test rugby. Goosen and Kitshoff are very exciting prospects. But they are not physically dominating players like Etzebeth....who is already more of a presence than anybody he is likely to face. Put in Kitshoff.....and I picked this guy before any other poster on here so I have a stake in him.....and the NZ scrumming coaches will find a way to make his test debut year a nightmare. Train him off the bench and you have a giant for the future.
Disagree Moz, its about picking the best side. There will be enough experience with the likes of JP, Habana, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Bekker, Brussouw, Schalk and Spies to form the core of our side. Add even Lambie who has played a good number of tests now.
Thats 11 players with varying degrees of test experience. The rest of the side needs to be made up of the exciting youngsters coming through like Taute, JJ.Engelbrecht, Sadie (when he settles), Goosen, Jantjies, Kitshoff, Coenie, Chiliboy, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Elsatdt, J.Potgieter, Coetzee, CJ Stander, Kolisi, J.Strauss.
It was obvious in the last WC that many of our players had past their prime and its time to move on. We have to move on from Fourie, Jean, Morne, du Preez, Steenkamp, CJ, Smit, Jannie, Bakkies, Matfield, Smith and Danie.........Habana and Schalk are hanging on at this stage, Habana in particular. He would really have to impress to keep the likes of JJ and Mvovo out and Schalk has so many quality youngsters breathing down his neck.
Disagree on Ebershon being the best 13, he has been no better than JP, de Jongh and JJ. Ebersohn is the least physical of the lot and would get blown away at test level. No way in hell would de Jongh and Ebersohn smell my test 22.
Aplon has done very little at test level, great little player, but very little
That's the problem Dave. You disagree on Ebersohn, others disagree Stander, Kolisi, Malherbe etc etc. These players have not made an unequivocal case for inclusion. A guy like Dagg had to play for years in Mils' shadow. When he finally emerged he was ready and part of the team.
What you and others are suggesting here is....pick the best players. That was the DeStroyli tack....with new best players every week and no team.
The only way to succeed is to have a Bok team that's stable. With about a 20% turnover every year. Your route leads to certain defeat in the early tests and then total confusion.
Moz what is your side then?
The side that started against Oz with the 6 improvements listed above:
Lambie, JP, DdV, Frans, Habana, Morne.....Hougaard
Beast, Bismarck, Jannie , Brussouw, Etzebeth, Bekker, Schalk, Vermeulen.
I forgot Victor. I don't think Bekker weakens the side versus 2011 Victor who had a great game against Oz, but was on the slide. In any case that's seven changes....already too many for comfort. I can see why Meyer is trying to bring back Victor and F du Preez. But these are well covered positions. He should worry more about our long stanbding problems at tighthead, and eighthmnan.
Moz I would not want to chop and change. I'd identify the best of those youngsters listed to add to my core of experienced players and I'd invest in them.
I see no point in hanging onto players that have past their prime for the sake of experience. Our Bok side was an ageing one and its time to move on. We failed at the WC so time to wipe the slate clean.
We have plenty of experience in the 10 or 12 players I named, we dont need more than that. I want to see Bok rugby move on, it wont do that by hanging onto washed up hasbeens.
I dont advocate wholesale changes.....we build around 15. Lambie 14. X 13. JP 12. Frans 11. Habana 10. X 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3.X 4.X 5.Bekker 6.Brussouw 7. X 8.Spies......that's 10 of my starting 15 with test experience...........the X's need new youngsters with Etzebeth and Goosen being the easy picks and Schalk might still have a spot at 7
How many tests has JP had at centre?
I dont care how many tests JP has played at centre - test experience means just that. The lad has been in that enviroment enough times to merit the tag of experience - thats all I'm interested in. What position he plays is secondary
Good team Moz, but who would you replace Scalla and Vermeulen with if they are still injured?
Jaque Potgieter is a must in my book. Elstadt is a consideration also. No show ponies please. Spiesies on this form is out. Brussouw - well I have nagging doubts but am open to being convinced. If we have powerhouses like Elstadt and Potgieter maybe Brussouw can do his thing.
Wonder how Beast has used his time off and whether he is determined to play rugby and work hard. Should be reinvogorated after long lay off although will take a few matches for him to hit his straps.
Interresting topic fellas, there are two teams at stake here. What type of team we think should be picked based purely on this years first 9 rounds of super rugby and who Meyer wants to pick for his bok team.
For me I would love to see these guys in our team based purely on form in Super Rugby
01 - Kitshoff
02 - Chili (Hard one, Bismark, Liebenberg and Strauss all be doing well)
03 - ? WP Nel (All of our Tightheads have been rubbish)
04 - Estebeth
05 - Bekker (Experience)
06 - Coetzee (The kid has been pure class)
07 - Potgieter (Just, needs to work on his dicipline)
08 - Vermeulen (Injured, NO SPIESSS)
09 - Hougaard
10 - Goosen
11 - Habana (Been doing really well)
12 - De Villiers (Whitehead, this guys has been class and the buy of the season for me)
13 - Ebersohm
14 - Basson (Top Try scorer in super rugby this season)
15 - Pietersen (Lambie hasn't played at 15 much this season so far)
King, not a bad team, but not nearly enough xp, these guys shoul all be in the mix, except WP. I like him, but there are better. Jannie did nit do too much, but has tons of xp, hell I would even play Kruger and Malherbe before WP although I must sa I like his name x 1000 00!
Draad I like Marcel Coetzee. He is a smart player, and hardly ever coughs up the ball in heavy contact. He has a real ability to make 3 extra metres after being tackled. But of course he is not test proven.
Eighth man is even tougher. I wish Kankowski could watch the Big Joe tapes and learn how to corner flag. With his great pace he'd be awesome tackling among the backs. He also has way better hands than Spies and more heart. But he has blown enough chances that he can hardly be viewed as an answer.
The loosies I like are Stander, Potgieter, and Coetzee.
"The loosies I like are Stander, Potgieter, and Coetzee."
Me too, but Meyer will go for Spies @ 8 with all the injuries. Potgieter looks like he might not dishonor the 8 jumper, but that would be a risk.
"The lad has been in that enviroment enough times to merit the tag of experience - thats all I'm interested in. What position he plays is secondary"
Ummm, so you'd be comfortable with a JP playing number 8 because he has sufficient experience in the environment?
Seems strange selecting someone who has only played a 1/3 of a S15 campaign to start in a test match when he's not significantly better than any of the specialists in that position already, more so if he can't tackle, still... never stopped P Spies being selected I guess
poi-e there is no need to get stupid. JP at 8 is a little stretch dont you think.......but wing vs 13, come on.
I'd select JP at 13 right now, certainly ahead of de Jongh or Ebersohn. So yes JP would be my choice after a limited stint there with the Sharks and more importantly because he has bags of test experience.
Without a shadow of doubt, JP would make an impression at 13 at test level, when players like de Jongh and co would just get blown away. Easy selection really.
The only contenders in order for the Bok 13 spot are JP, Taute, Engelbrecht and Sadie........I'd also be more than happy with Frans at 12 if we decided to reward someone like Whitehead at 12
Dave your capacity for deciding you like a player and totally ignoring what happens on the field always takes my breath away. De Jongh has been MASSIVELY better than Sadie. The WP selectors favoured de Jongh over Sadie. Yet you choose Sadie....on the basis that de Jongh will be blown away, something that has never happened in the ten tests he has played.
Sorry Dave - but it was your contention, I'm merely trying to highlight that a move from wing to centre is not as trivial as you might think - Tana Umaga did it sucessfully, but by his own admission it took him quite a while to adjust. Christian Cullen tried the move, and it didn't really work out, both were players with significant test experience and both could tackle. JP is still cutting his teeth at centre, my feeling is that if he started a test against NZ. it wouldn't be pretty for him unfortunately.
Moz, I have Sadie as my fourth choice based purely on his potential and what I saw of him last year when he was a breathe of fresh air. I would NEVER select de Jongh or Ebersohn as test 13's purely based on their size. Both good players but not big enough for test rugby.
Until 87kg outside centres start playing test rugby on a regular basis, I am with the rest of the world out there and would not entertain their inclusions at all. Hell they are good players, but hardly special, why on earth would I bother?
poi-e I have seen enough positive in JP at 13 to be more than comfortable to select him there for the test matches and he would be my choice at 13 against England
Saffex - I am beginning to like your line of thinking a lot. However, I still differ with you about the number 13 position. The opposition would love to have a recycled wing like JP in that position - since he is not acceptable in defence.
Basically De Villiers remains our best center - and the automatic center partner - with due regard to his overseas performance - is Steyn as an ideal selection. I like Ebersohn as a player - but I am not sure whether he would make the grade on international level - I think he is a good Super 15 player - nothing more.
By the way I do not share your opinion on Aplon either - so my only differences about your team selection is down to four players, namely -
* The two centers - my choice is De Villers and Steyn;
* No 14 - Aplon with Engelbrecht on the bench;
* No 8 - Definitely not the show pony Spies - we need to look at somebody that can really play in that position. Maybe Elstadt is the answer if vermeulen is not available.
Jean, as good a player as he was, he is now 30 and past his best days and def too slow for 13. Fourie was a recycled wing/fullback as was Umanga and Mortlock - it works. JP will be fine at 13.
While Aplon is a good player he is too small for test rugby and has hardly been on fire this S15.
I am a big fan of Spies and he has been playing good rugby this S15, he walks my side
