Bok side - now we are talking

15. Lambie 14. JP 13. Taute 12. Frans 11. JJ.Engelbrecht 10. Goosen 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Kolisi 7. Elstadt 8. Coetzee

Now just remember Sapp....you have chosen Engelbrecht at 11 where Mike and I had him. You have chosen Coenie at tighthead in spite of a buggered neck. You have string bean du Toit at lock. And Elstadt and Kolisi at flank....hell even as a WP supporter that sounds nuts. 

In fact this is such a joke I have copied it for a good laugh down the road.

Well dumbo, I cant have Taute and JJ at 13 can I - but I do have both of them in my side, get it. Let me guess playing Coenie at loosehead would put less pressure on his neck and his neck is always going to be an issue doc. I can live with a 2m 117kg stringbean at lock, you need your eyes checked. Only an ignorant WP supporter would frown on the inclusion of hard men Elstadt and Kolisi - I want men who beat tackles and put in huge hits - look no further.

Love my Bok side, beats the crap out of anything you would come up with and would chew up Meyers side against England.......Taute is far better than Jean, JJ a step up from past it Habana, Goosen twice the player Morne is, Coenie is the way forward, Steph du Toit is far better than Kruger and you will be pleased to see anyone ahead of Spies.

I fail to comprehend how you think Morne, Jean and co are going to win us tests against NZ and Oz and if they are, please explain your reasoning.

Ah yeah and here is that stringbean lock - Moz change your lenses bud

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/06/23/98/sau20mediaguide2012.pdf

Dave the use of the Americanism  "dumbo", which I planted in your subconscious, is delightfully ironical. But let me  be big and  let's look at your team.

Lambie is fine, JP is fine, Fransie is fine.....Hougaard is a great player, but still not a great scrumhalf. Goosen is  at this stage a dream, .....this brilliant runner, who can pot goal kicks from 60 metres. Will the reality match the dream? We don't know yet.  Taute is a blunderbuss.....no step, no pass, no imagination.  Conrad Smith is used to tackling big NZ backs he will have no trouble lowering Taute. JJ is a wing....it's nice to see you finally accepting that, but he is miles behind Habana as a complete player.

The pack is worse. Os plays Coenie at loosehead and WP at tighthead, but you know better. Steph du Toit is a stick man.....he was tossed around like a toothpick by the Bools...and limped off. He needs three years. Kolisi is doing well at S15....but he is no Schalk, no Brussouw. Elstadt is a poor man's Danie Rossouw....ie he does the same kind of things, but not nearly as well. And Coetzee is a flank, not an eighthman. He was great against the Bools....less so against the Poms. Etzebeth likewise was unable to dominate even the Poms poor locks....he is no Bakkies, not yet anyway.

You pick on potential you like the looks of a player....and mostly you think they are going to overpower the opponent....so you choose big chaps like Murray, JJ, Taute....before they have actually made a case. These guys would never be in the mix for the ABs. Even a brilliant talent like Dagg played second fiddle for a few years. 

I like certain players as well....but to me they have to prove they can be effective. None of us are smart enough to say what will happen when a player steps up in class. We can infer certain things....but we need proof. And players like Habana and Jean that have been super stars, that have proven their ability to compete, should get the benefit of the doubt. That's right on an individual basis.....but it also supports the team aspects. Insecure teams are bad teams. 

Some of these youngsters will work out....most of them wont.  My bet would be Goosen, Etzebeth, Coetzee among the newbies.....but even that's not a given. Top players tend to stay for at least 5 years......which means three new players a year is par.....not nine.

I know your quant skills are a bit basic.....but even you can surely see 9 new players is never going to happen.

Mozart and Saffex

I differ from you both on some points - and have my own reasons for doing that.  I think we are at ease with Lambie and JP Pietersen - no problem.  At this stage the other wing is Habana - and he will be there for a while to come.   I do back Engelbrecht to be his successor.

Meyer will make no change insofar as De Villiers is concerned untill the end of the year - but everyone realise he may get injured (older players are injured more frequently and take longer to recover) and we need a 13.   Taute showed very little at center during 2012 - maybe because of the misreable service he got from his inside backs - that being the main reason why I do not rate them at all.   Maybe it could have been avoided if Doppies La Grange was fit to play.   Be it as it may - Taute showed very little this year thus far and he won't show anything in the remainder of the year as he will not play in any more Super 15 games.   Taute is a gamble at best.    Now for the other 13's to replace De Villiers at 13.   De Jong is harmless and although good in defence - useless in attack.    The Bulls has nothing - with Serfontein lurking in the background.    I would not play any center from the Cheetahs - so the only p-layer who have done well thus far in Super 15 is Jordaan.   At this stage my replacement for De Villiers - should he get injured - can only be a straight choice between Jordaan and Ebersohn, but I do not think the latter has it in him to play on higher level..   Less of a gamble than Taute.   However, I think Jordaan will be playing for the Sharks this coming weekend against Ebersohn and that may help to clarify things further.  My choice in the event of injury to De Villiers remain Jordaan and in the longer term the rest of the contenders will have ample opportunity to show their worth.

Francois Steyn is a given - no argument there.

I would not want to continue with Morne Steyn - even in the coming 4-nations.  I think everyone by now agrees that Steyn is one-dimensional.   Over the years Meyer has built a game plan around Steyn - but that is slipping badly nowadays with Steyn not delivering the goods anymore.   Will Meyer appoint a new flyhalf bearing in mind he will have to change his game plan totally?   Not sure he will.   Even if he does drop Morne Steyn out of the equation - and thus change his choice at flyhalf - Goosen is not available for the 4-nations and Meyer would not make another change in mid-stream during that tournament.   I guess Meyer's interim choice will be the experienced Grant at 10 - and in next year change to Goosen if he continues to perform.

Now for scrummie - I have serious reservations about aspects of Hougaards play as a scrummie.    He just  does not have the real natural instincts attached to that position.   However, other than Pienaar we have no other choice and I can live with that.

No 8 - there is no place for Spies in that position - so he will have to go.  I have written extensively elsewhere about this position.   Saffex wants to move Coetzee to 8 to create a vacancy at 6.   I would never support that notion - it could harm (maybe irrepairably ) the playing career of Coetzee and would never support such a move.   Under the circumstances I would go for the best SA player in that position - namely Vermeulen.  being 26 he can easily make the next WC - and even the New Zealand and Australian commentators rate him highly.    So that is the end of the story as far as 8 is concerned.

Elstadt has to my mind all the attributes to become a great no 7 - but he needs further development in that position.   In the interim and at least for the next three yeears - the player in contention for that position would be Alberts.      However. if Elstadt develops further - he would be my choice for replacing Alberts in the event of injury.   By the way Danie Rossouw did some good things while playing (like that tackle in the WC final)- but also some real dumb things in ball handling - a player with limited capacity at the best of times.  Do not compare Elstatd with Rossouw - i personally believe Elstadt is a player with better instincts than Rossouw ever had - ie a much cleverer playing capacity.   In the longer term I have no problems with Elstadt in that position - but for now I would keep Alberts.

There can be no argument about Coetzee at 6 - I think he is a real star and he has proven himself in that position. Meyer will not change him - end of story.  He is five years younger than Brussow and that gives Brussow no chance for future selection - possibly at best from the bench.   His back up would inevitably be Kolisi - but the latter would have to develop further - even to be in the picture.     My choice at no 6 remains Coetzee and that cannot be argued against.

Locks - i do rate Etzebeth highly and he will develop further as a lock gaining more experience in the process.   He is our best lock at present.   - there can be no argument about that.   I think Mozart is wrong about that one.   Barring injuries - he would still be our main lock for the enxt two WC's.    The other lock is a contentious issue.  Kruger was the original choice of Meyer for that position - but i have serious reservations about him.   Du Toit in fact outplayed him last week in his first start in Super 15.   This 19 year-old is going to go places in future - a real star being developed.    I think he would play Super 15 regularly next year - and if he continues to develop - he would be my first choice partner for   Etzebeth.  People always talk about Mattfield settimng the stage as a lock.   To my mind he was iffy - mostly standing around in the backline - doing some wotk in line-outs and nothing in tight maul situations.  Du Toit is a different kettle of fish - and he WILL make it.  His grandfathher is no doubt very proud of him and he will be our next real star lock.

The props after Du Plessi and the Beast remains a problem.   But for his neck injury being a possible impdeiment. - may be the answer   Maybe he was too young to start in that position for the Cheetahs - thus resulting in his injury..  The positive side is it was not necessary to do a fuison operation on him - and I hope he will be back to full playing capacity.   Personally I had a fusion operation done on my neck by the same specialist (the top one in SA) that did the operation on Van Biljon and he mentioned the case to me as well.   Van Biljon never recovered from that operation insofar as rugby performances were concerned.    Since he did not have an operation - the situation is not as serious as with a fusion operation - but we will have to wait and see.   The two other players at prop that could make the grade ultimately would be Kitshoff and Malherbe.  Both are  too youn and inexpereienced at this stage - they need drastic fiurther development  and they will gain expereience and develop further in years to come.   However, at this stage and possible for the next two years - the argument about the props is really academic.   The only real shorter-term prospect is Oosthuizen - provided he gets over his injury and keep on performing.   Hope he does though.

Bismarck - beyond a shadow of doubt the best in the world.   But who is to replace him.  Definitely not Chilliboy - neither Strauss.   The latter two makes no real sense.   End of story. 

Moz dumbo certainly fits considering you are incapable of listening to reason, but let me put it to you one more time. Taute is my 13, I cant play JJ there as well - basics of rugby old chap, but hey if you need clarity, there we go. JJ is a 13 first and foremost in my books, I'm playing him on the wing because he is a better option than Habana who has past it.

I take it Taute is a blunderbuss much like JJ is - funny how that egg must still be slidding off your face after JJ run on Fri night - blunderbusses my arse. Taute has nothing to worry about in Conrad Smith - lets face it he is solid hardly a world beater now is? Taute is bigger and a better balanced runner than Smith. Conrads strength is his rugby brain.

Half of what Goosen presently presents us is a far better bet than Morne, so dont even go there. There is no issue with Hougaard at 9 at all, best in the game on attack, defence and has a great service. Needs to work on that box kick.

Os himself has said Coenie will make a great tighthead, WP Nel is off to Scotland, Coenie is moving to tighthead, you need to brush up on the news, not to mention the fact that Coenie has already successfully started his transition to tighthead.

Steph du Toit a stick man, so I take it his profile stats for the Junior WC are a bunch of lies that he is not 117kg huh? Tossed about by who exactly, dont lie Moz, it carries no weight.......at no point did a single player toss him anywhere. The kid had a great full debut and is better than Jeandre Kruger and will prove a better physical player than Matfield was.

Elstadt is better than Danie ever was, far more aggressive and makes far more of an impact imposing himself. Kolisi has been the find of the S15, he is huge and better than Schalk ever was at the same age. Kolisi will prove a far superior player to Schalk. Coetzee played all his schoolboy and U20 rugby at 8.

While I recognise how great Habana and Jean were, they are done and these youngsters are better. We will not beat NZ playing washed up hasbeens. So if I was coach, I'd select the side above - but would retain Jannie at 3, move Coenie to the bench, I'd hang onto Bekker for a little longer and move the very impressive Steph du Toit to the bench. I would also start with Brussouw and play Kolisi off the bench.

Players like Habana, Jean, Morne, Schalk and Spies would be history. We have far too many class youngsters about to merit hanging onto players past their prime and leading us no where - the English series proved that to me.

Saffex

You did not at all respond to my comments on the issue of player selection - what do you think about what i wrote?

So Dave your rugby judgements are based on the performance of the Poms. I guess this goes along with your admiration for their coach who just won, zero in three?

Habana wont be history for a few years.....Jean is on the edge.....Morne will be around for a while. Live with it.

Mike,  Etzebeth may very well be the real deal.....he is very impressive for a youngster. But he is a mile away from Bakkies at his best. Without Bekker his play dropped off considerably.....and in the test series he was ok, certainly not poor.....but he didn't impose himself. He will get a lot better, but we all assumed he would be a smarter Bakkies.....now I'm not so sure.

No Moz its based on our performance against England, not Englands performance against us. With the talent we have at our disposal we should have selected accordingly and beaten the Poms with ease at home. We fell well short thanks to conservative selections. Meyer fell short, the Pom coach came up trumps. Meyer will need to learn quickly and that will entail getting rid of Morne first and foremost - Jean, Habana and co need to follow soon after.

If Morne does stay Moz, we will not have a hope in hell of beating Oz and NZ and surely you even know that, failing which you must be as ignorant as the few other Morne worshipers

And we will beat them with a coward like Jantjies.....who throws a forward pass to avoid getting hit....who chickens out under the high ball?

Those chip kicks of his will be gobbled up by the ABs, his channel will become a highway.....I mean look at the way Garrard ran right over the poor tyke.

I too wish we had a Carter like flyhalf....who can control the game and also provide more attacking spark. That may be Goosen down the road. But right now we have 3 guys who play roughly the same game....Grant, Jantjies (bar the chips) and Morne. And of those 3 Morne has the best credentials. If he started missing goal kicks....I'd pick Grant....if we want to win.

 Goosen will be back in a few months and when he does he needs to start for the Boks straight away. Jantjies is the answer for now as I dont buy into the crap that he bottled contact, I've seen him take contact all season. His strength is his feel for the game, would love to see him outside Hougaard and have Frans on his inside.

I'd much rather see us lose to NZ with this kid plying his exciting trade than going in with the sterile Morne knowing we dont have a hope in hell

 Mike in answer to your selections.......for a start I dont know what you base your take on Taute on. He has made the 4th most line breaks in the whole Super 15 and is the 7th highest in metres gained - not bad for a player in the worst side. So once again I find it difficult to debate with you when you cant even pick up on how good this guy is.

We are sorted at 15, with Lambie, with le Roux looking like a useful back-up, but he needs to bulk up more

At wing JP walks it, Habana might have a season left in him, but I doubt it. Mvovo is a class player as is JJ, but I prefer JJ at 13. I also like v/d Heever, Mjekevu and Sithole. Also Jordaan might be better suited to wing given his size.

We need a new outside centre, Jean is over the hill and not the answer. Taute and JJ are by far our best options, with Jordaan, Serfontein and Howard as future options. Hopefully Sadie can make a better impression soon as well.

At 12 Frans is huge and we have handy back-ups in Whitehead, Serfontein and Frans Venter

At 10, Morne has to go NOW. The obvious replacement is Goosen. I am a big fan of Jantjies and Grant has had a good S15, but is not really and option other than short term.

At 9, Hougaard reigns supreme, no questions asked. v/Zyl looks a useful back-up

At loosehead, Beast is the master, but we have some useful back ups in Kitshoff, Coenie, Marcel v/d Merwe and Nkanyane

At hooker, we have depth in Bismark, A.Strauss and Chiliboy

At tighthead Jannie has matured into a solid test tightead, we have young back-ups in Malherbe, Coenie, and the two 23 year old Bulls - Frik Kirsten and Rossouw de Klerk

At lock we have depth with Etzebeth and Bekker as stand-outs closely followed by Flip, Steph du Toit, J. Kruger, Willemse, JA Marais, Bulbring and Bresler

We have loosies to burn and time is running out for the likes of Spies, Alberts, Kankan, Brussouw and Schalk, the kids about are either already better or closing in quickly. Coetzee, Kolisi, Josh Strauss, Elstadt, CJ Stander, Arno Botha, D.Potgieter, J.Potgieter, Vermeulen and v/d Walt are all test material.

The bottom line is that we have to move on from the likes of Kirchner, Habana, Aplon, Joe, Jean, Olivier, Morne, W.Kruger and co - some sooner than later if we wish to beat NZ and Oz regularly. Morne has to go NOW, followed closely by Jean as Bok starters

Saffex- I think you are given credit where it is not due. Many of these are just youngish players- that have not proved much or earnt the right to be linked to the senior boks. Some are not even first choice for their respective provinces. It is cheapening the boks to quote Hieneken Meyer to credit them all with the ability to replace the established players. Their would be little continuity in such selection and could turn back into the Roedolf Straulie era- when even his subsitutes got substituted during the game.

Some of the players will go onto being regulars in the bok team- others will just be replaced by newer players that are the flavour of the month

Some notes below-

At tighthead backups- "and the two 23 year old Bulls - Frik Kirsten and Rossouw de Klerk"-

 How can these 2 be considered as backups if they are not even making a Super15 team at the age of 23. They are no spring chickens at 23. Also look at the praat WP that is keeping them out of the team- either the coaches are crazy or these are players not too great- and not in the same breath as springbok material.

Sithole is not even making the Sharks Superxv starting team- how can he yet be considered sprinbok material. 

Josh Strauss is 26 and hardly a kid- and he still has not cut Springbok selection. Hardly the material of a legend. Schalk Burger was world player of the year at 21.

Both the Potgieters are poor in comparison to the average standard of Loose forward for the boks. Nothing compared to a former World player of the year in Schalk burger. 

Peter Grant is not a long term option- he is what 28 years old? In the next world cup he will be 31 - which is fine for an inside back. Long term planning surely cant be longer than 4 year cycles at most with the injuries that players have. Also how many coaches last longer than 4 years- so not much point planning for a future that no one might even be apart of. 

WIlliam Alberts is 28 and probably the best ball carrier in the game at the moment. What planning is required to replace the best. He can make the next worldcup. 

 Disagree, Shark - Bok rugby needs to move on and these kids are our future and the ones listed have shown what it takes. I am not saying all will make it, they cant, they show our depth.....so no cheapening of the Bok jersey at all. As I keep saying there is enough of core of experienced players to bring in these youngsters to give our Bok side some clout.

As for the tightheads, actually I think they are both 22 but I might be wrong and lets face it Ludeke has hardly got it right with Werner Kruger has he? Frik Kirsten has been the Bulls bench prop for most the S15 - just because he is not starting a S15 match does not mean he is a lesser player than the starter, Ludeke is hardly a great coach and he is getting it wrong. Rossouw de Klerk has been out injured for months and only now back in training. Hell Quinn Roux has not started for the Stormers and he is clearly a better player than de Kock Steenkamp who has started for them. Coaches sometimes go with experience to their detriment.

As for Sithole, hell knows why the Sharks are not playing him, much like they are not Mjekevu - its madness, they stick with the likes of Ludik on the wing or has beens like Ndungane - madness

Josh Strauss is 25 and has been playing in France so hence out of the picture, his age has stuff all to do with it, he would do the Boks proud if asked to play.

Grant was not an age thing, Goosen and Jantjies are better options.

Alberts is good but blows hot and cold, was great against England, lets see how he goes moving forward

Saffex

You are stuck like a needle on Jantjies - I think he has no chance to play 10.   Meyer would know he is unfit to play anything higher than CC and he has no real chance of selection.  He may even be on the bench to satisfy some of the politicos - but as to giving him any game time would not be even considered.    He is and remains useless. 

Taute is injured and has not played for a while - no chance in the 4-nations at all - so if he comes into the picture it will only be late next year.   By then he could also be out of contention - since the only SA teams that would contract him if the Lions are out - would be the Kings and the Cheetahs.   Otherwise he would end up playing overseas.   Persoanlly I would not like to see the latter happening - as it would be a massive loss to SA Rugby.    If he moves to the Cheetahs - it may be career-wise better, but moving to the Kings together with Jantjies will end any hope for him to play international rugby.    I do not think he would make it into the Springbok side soon - in the long run the picture could change in his favour.    Wish he would come to the Sharks or go to the Stormers - but that is very unlikely after the Sharks signed up Francois Steyn and replacement of the useless and harmless De Jong would not be a consideration by them - they are not the brightest when contacting players.    The Bulls have ample players to replace Olivier and my guess is that will not offer a contract to Taute.   It is unfortunate for Taute that he played for the wrong franchise up to now and that Doppies la Grange got injured - so he had to play outside not one, but two palookas in the Lion's backline.

I have repeatedly said that I like Taute as a player - but he is in a bad position contract wise and that may cost him future selection for the Boks.

Now lets look at the wings.   Mvovo is learning well and could be in contention - but van der Heever is not a consideration at all.    He is the stop-gap Stormer wing and is probably being developed to replace Habana - but that could happen over the next two years - but at this stage a definite no-no.    The other wings mentioned by you are not even a consideration on Super 15 level.

Jordaan too small at 94 kgs to play for the Boks - I rarely make negative remarks about members of the board - but that is taurus excretus.   You want to play a palooka like Jantjies ( at 85 kilos) in the backline - but the 10 kilo heavier Jordaan is not acceptable   You really must be kidding.    Jordaan is a definite future selection possibility in my book.

Amongst the forwards - you are mentioning players not even playing for their franchises on Super 15 level - so I would not even discuss them further.   If they were any good - they would have replaced the useless Kruger and Greyling as props already - as an example.   I do not say those mentioned could not end up playing for Super 15 - but a further step up can never be imagined.

Mike Meyer selected Jantjies for the Bok bench in the last test, so of course Meyer has him in the picture and rightly so.

Taute will be ready for action soon so will make the end of year touring squad. I am sure he will have sorted out his future contract wise and he wont be stupid enough to sign for the Kings. Lets just hope he is not heading overseas.

Jordaan is down as 94kg on the Sharks site, but 90kg on all other sites. By looking at him, he looks more like 90kg as is short and does not look like he has the frame to get much bigger. I hope I am wrong as he is already muscled up and I rate him highly as a player but am concerned that physically he might not be up to being a test 13 - time will tell.

Mike there is no problem with having a small 9 or 10, tests side have small guys in these positions, they dont at wing, centre and fullback

As for the props I mention, well for a start Ludeke is a fool for keeping faith with Werner Kruger who keeps getting his arse kicked. Frik Kirsten is on the Bulls bench and is a far better option. Rossouw de Klerk is the other good prospect, but he has been out injured for many months and is only now starting to play again. Both are young, big and powerful lads and look the part moving forward

great team saffex but as much as it haunts me i will maybe have to include jean at 13 as well as habana. the backline looks a bit green in terms of exp. brussow wil be in the mix for my taste as always.

the rest is very decent team. its really tough to go againts the AB and wallies with a team that lacks in exp but i feel the older players might be more calm in the high pressure situations. goosen will pass the test at the top level i am quite sure

Carpet, I'd prefer to stick with greenhorns, Jean is past it and no 13........give me Taute or JJ at 13 anyday. Time to move on, experience can only carry us so far, it wont carry us to victory over NZ and Oz.........we struggled against an average England side with these experienced guys, they will sell us short against proper oposition

valid point saffex.....one just needs to keep the mix right. exp and youth. we are in phase where we are spoilt with a lot of young great talent but they need to be groomed now so then the time comes they can perform on the big stage. i dont think HM will play the likes of goosen ext right away as much as i would love to see this freakish talent in action.

Yeah Meyer will learn the hard way. He will select Morne and co against NZ and Oz, we will lose and he will then bring in the likes of Goosen to save the day

 The dead music man knows his rugby that other guy is dreaming of schmuck pudding..

Luna, good to see your ignorance shining bright as ever - let me guess, you reckon we will beat NZ with the side that played against England - you keep that conservative flag flying - ignorance is bliss as they say

Saffex, in all probability not.  But o go and make wholesome changes now is not so clever.  You sound like that Bulls trainer Ludicrous.  Change is necessary, but you are spreading the butter too thick.  In your case you lose the leadership as well.  You need a mix of experience and youth not just youth.  That team of yours is full of stars but it is not a TEAM.  It is not a matter of ignorance, rather a matter of logic, something you miss in your enthusiasm to push the youngsters at all cost.  They too will be beaten comprehensively by the ABs.

Disagree luna - the difference is that if we tackle NZ with the side selected to play England, we WILL lose. With the best players in the country being selected, we stand a chance of winning.