Bok squad going backwards

This is a pretty pathetic squad, why on earth did conservative Meyer just not finish it off by selecting Danie Rossouw and CJ v/d Linde? He should also have tried to entice Victor Matfield and John Smit out of retirement.

What is the bloody point of a selecting a 34 year old lock, is he going to be playing for the Boks in the next WC aged 36?

So he retains the useless Kirchner at 15 and overlooks the in form SP Marais.

He brings back 31 year old Aplon, a proven test failure, who is hardly going to start ahead of JP and Habana, so what's the point. At least Aplon is better than Basson, so we have a slight improvement here, but young Rhule, v/d Heever or Volmink would have been a far better investment.

Back to old man Fourie at 13 to partner another old man in Jean, what the bloody hell is the point of that? We have Frans back in SA playing his heart out and showing good form in the final an he gets overlooked. What of the impressive de Allende? Fourie was good in his day, but his day is done. At least Fourie is an improvement on wee de Jongh but still a damn poor selection.

Oh boy and good old Morne remains no matter how bloody useless he is. No doubt this bloke will start against Wales as good old Meyer is as bloody clueless as they come.

How the hell did Schraueder get ahead of v/Zyl and Reinach and what the bloody hell is the point of retaining Pienaar who has been average to poor all year.

Good old fat Steenkamp retains his spot ahead of the impressive Kitshoff.........absolute madness and an insult to the young props in the country like Nkayane, Kitshoff and Marcel v/d Merwe.

If Ntumbeni is a quota selection then why on earth was Chiliboy not selected given he is a merit selection. This pathetic argument that less overseas players are to be selected does not wash given Fourie selected over Frans.

Bakkies was great in his day, but at 34 he is done and hardly a good investment. While he is a far better selection than Kruger and Franco, his selection is still pretty pathetic given the form shown by de Jager all year.

Nothing new in the loosies, Labascagne and Elstadt continue to be snubbed and dom Meyer has not woken up to the availability of young CJ Stander. If Meyer had any brains CJ Stander would be one of the first overseas based players he should be calling on.

This squad is a pathetically conservative one, taking Bok rugby back to the dark ages - how can a national coach be so stupid and short sighted. We will struggle against Wales and France with these bunch of geriatrics.

I was starting to turn the corner with Meyer until his poor selections were confirmed by two losses to NZ.......he has learnt nothing and in fact invested in many more old farts.......Meyer you are clueless

SA coaching mindset is blighted by staid conservatism and fear to venture and change.

That is why the AB's always have a few over us and this tendancy will prevail until they start to see the light...every now and then we start reasonably well only to revert back to bad habits. The mindset has got to change. The AB's are always progressive in their approach and build up their up and coming new players...whereas we have this tendancy to revert back to the past. Obviously some experienced players are needed but this must be properly balanced with new and exciting prospects.

Seb, you are spot on.......you see the AB's retain their best experienced players in the starting 15 like Woodcock, Mul, Hore, McCaw, Messam, Nonu, Carter and Conrad Smith and they bring in class younsters as back-ups to feed off the older players.

That is the way you do it and that is why they keep that number 1 spot and why we will never challenge for that spot given the pathetic conservatism of our selections.

Moz Brad Thorn was one of the most overrated players ever to play for NZ, he was average at best

Mozart

By the age of 36 Brad thorn was a passenger in the AB team - kept there because they did not have suitable replacements.   No player can perform on the same level at 36 years of age as he did at 28 years of age.  The New Zealanders have built an aura around Thorn - but was he really that good in the WC in 2011 - where in the final they won by the slimmest of margins imaginable. 

I for one think that this year at 3 8 he was part of the reason why the Highlanders did so badly in Super 15 - they had him and too many other rugby "geriatrics".

You may have an argument - but we have young players with much higher work rates  than Bakkies can achieve at present.  So the insistence on old players - with reduced work rates - are problematic.   Bakkies cannot play a full match anymore - not even on Club level - he has to be replaced at halftime at the latest.   You have one lock on the bench and if any of the locks other than Bakkies get injured - what then? 

We cannot afford to have Bakkies on International level anymore - he had his glory years and that was that.  The only thing that can happen with him is that he can disgrace himself and ruin his good name.

Seb and Saffex

I called some players in the squad going back to the future.   I agree Meyer made some improvements - but he retained some under-performing fossils and added even some others to them.   The fact that a number of players he brought in will never make the WC in 2015 is a very aggravating issue.   What is worse is that players who let us down in the past is retained. 

I still think that Meyer lets slip of an opportunity to start building a cohesive squad for the 2015 WC and that instead of weighing that factor up properly came up with a squad containing players who are not the best in their positions and no inves tments for the future.

Just one question - is Bakkies at this stage a better lock at 4 than Etzebeth - I don't  think so and I think there is virtually nobody except Mozart - who would think so.

Mozart

You miss my point - the players at lock (whether in the starting line up or on the bench) should all be able to play a full match.   If one of the players get injured and Botha has to go off at half-time - we could end up without one lock altogether for up to half the game.  That is the real problem.  

Is De Jager more active on the field of play than Bakkies - I do think it is likely if his tackle and ball carrying stats - as well as his line out takes in Super 15 is borne in mind.  Remember he did play against the of the best New Zealand and Australia can offer and did well enough against them.    Bakkies at this stage is an unknown quantity - and reputation is not what should be the norm - performance are .

The problem is a paradox...whilst we pick and disregard players we lose the priority of selecting a team that gels and can play together...of course individuals are important but choose them in a format or context of creative progression and innovative game plan...all team sport is a unified effort to outwit...if your opponent knows your strategy they can surely counteract it, destroy and attack it with effect. We need to get intelligent and progressive...isn't that obvious or are we too doff and thick???

Everybody   is talking about the issue of Bakkies Botha, but there are also th other foreign-based players who are a major question.   When Kahui was asked for his reasons for going to Japan - he said that money is not the only  attraction and indicated that playing a maximum of 14 matches per year is also a major attraction.  

Nothing like the hard grind of the SH competitions in this case.  When SA players come back from overseas contracts or play for SA, there are all kinds of problems as well - they either gets injured more easily like Grant for instance or come back as fat a pigs and seemingly unfit like Steyn and Steenkamp.   Fourie du Preez came back and came off the bench in the Pumas test and looked like Du Preez of the past 4 years and had a great performance.   He then came back for the local RC tests against the Wallabies and the All Blacks.   In the Wallabies test  he was reasonably good - and in the AB's test he was bog ordinary.  

That brings us to the question - how demanding is the rugby environment the foreign club players have to meet?   What is clear is that the Club environment is in Kahui's terms a "soft" environment with less demands than what is required from SH players.  In that "soft environment how much of the skill sets of players are retained?

Lets look at the practical examples that had some longer impact on the selections of foreign-based players.   Louw - whom I always rated highly came back at 27 years of age and was much like the way he played when playing for WP and he Springboks  The same cannot be said of Pienaar.    When he played for the Sharks and the Springboks 5 years ago he was a much better player than he is at present.   Maybe it is the age factor - maybe it is the "soft" environment factor.    Is Du Preez still the player he was 4 years ago?   In March last  year Du Preez when asked by Meyer - himself stated that he is not match fit and would let the Springboks down.   In his latest two games - he seemed to run out of steam - especially in the Ellis Park test.

That begs anther question - is the selection of foreign-base club players in the interest of the Springboks?   The answer seems to be not.  However, the impact of age on player performances must never be lost sight of as well.   Almost all - with rare exceptions of Meyer's selection of foreign based players are basically well past 30 years of age - and indisputably in the twilight of their rugby  playing careers.  Even the younger players in the set-up - like Kirchner and Morne Steyn - will be 30 years old next year.

Hearkening back to the past is not really an acceptable thing in rugby - especially not in the cases of players like Morne Steyn and Kirchner - who really never in their careers could be rated as good performers.   If they start going down further in the Club environment - where will they be next year?   I do not think they should be included in any squad anymore - since Morne is obviously there for his goal kicking only and Kirchner as a quota player.  

I still maintain there are serious risks for the Springboks viability attached to the selection of foreign-based club player and that playing them could be a major problem and not an asset as Meyer apparently thinks.   De Villiers stayed in SA and in a very demanding rugby environment - he is even better than 2 years ago - but if he went to Europe or Japan - would the result have been the same?  I frankly do not think so.

The only players who have been positives for the Boks this year....ie better than their opponents (and I exclude the Bargies for analytical purposes) are the following:

Habana

Willie

Jean

F du Preez

Bismarck/Strauss

Beast

Etzebeth

Vermeulen.

And that doesn't say they have been better in all the games against our old TN opponents...but at least some of them. The rest of the squad has to prove they can compete and as things stand no player outside that group can't be replaced by another, probably average, player.

So there you have it. Nine key players of whom one is a new Bok...all the re st are experienced. All this howling about the squad is totally irrelevant.

Habana - savea was better then habana in all RC/4nat matches and going head to head, savea was way better in eden park and in ellis park was more effective too, especially when u consider habana who played 20 minutes and missed over 60% of his tackles

Willie - LMAO,  ben smith, nuff said

Jean - nonu better then JDV in auckland, better then JDV in joburg

F du Preez - aaron smith was better then du preez in joburg plus played all the RC/4nat matches where he was dominant over all his counterparts, the last part is something du preez cant say considering he played less then 2 and half games total

Vermeulen. - read was way better then vermeulen head to head and in every other game compared to their opponents.
he was one of the Boks most consistent players though, but still well below the mark read made for the No8 jersey.

Willie vs Ben Smith (Ben Smith was a better finisher and as a winger he was better.) Willie however was the better play maker as he setup more tries. ) I would give this one to Ben Smith though as for traditional wing play he did better). Willie helps to give the team an extra dimension on attack with his distribution skills and running lines.

Jean - nonu better then JDV in auckland, better then JDV in joburg (Agreed on this this one)

F du Preez - aaron smith was better then du preez in joburg plus played all the RC/4nat matches where he was dominant over all his counterparts, the last part is something du preez cant say considering he played less then 2 and half games total.

I dont think that Aaron Smith was better for most of the match. Although towards the end Fourie was not keeping up with the pace and probably should have been substituted sooner. Fourie Dupreez was dominant over all his opponents except the All Blacks. 

In joburg I dont think either scrummie stood out and both were more of a linking role than a decision maker. 

Neither had many decent runs either from what I recall, and I dont think either were the main characters on the day.

Vermeulen. - read was way better then vermeulen head to head and in every other game compared to their opponents.
he was one of the Boks most consistent players though, but still well below the mark read made for the No8 jersey.

Read is the best number 8 in the world especially in open play. Vermuelen gets 2nd best. 

This argument of which player is better than his opponent is really fruitless - since it does not reflect the fact that rugby is a team game - where combinations are the key component of the game - and here we must look at he situation objectively and not in a partisan manner.   The so-called superiority of individual players does not explain why key things happened in the final analysis in games and the  key element is in games between the AB's and the Springboks.   Unfortunately due to the referee the Eden Park game does not reflect the real strengths and weaknesses of the two teams - so its down to the Ellis Park test to really show which combinations were better.

Tight 5

As a unit the tight 5 of the Springboks contributed to a 60% possession stake for the Springboks and despite one extremely weak link (Kruger) and the poor defensive play of Du Plessis, the Springbok component was significantly better than the one of the AB's.  

Back Row

The really strong component of the AB team.  They were all over the Springboks in all elements of the game - defence in the channel and wider out, ball carries, especially in looser format, breakdown ball recovery. line out performance, etc.   Three of the AB tries were scored by their loose forwards and at least one other try originated form Read.   They were the key to the AB victory - so no contest.

Backline

In attack the Springbok backline was surprisingly better than the AB's backline.  That is shown by the fact that all four tries of the Springboks were scored by backline players.  

On defence the AB backline was by far superior.   The real weak link here was Morne Steyn - who aside from missing key tackles - was also responsible for at least one weird decision which led indirectly to an AB try.   The defensive headaches were in order of poor performance was Morne Steyn,  Zane Kirchner, Willie le Roux, JJ Engelbrecht, Du Preez  and De Villiers.

What Changes would make the Springboks a more Competitive Side

Kirchner  -   Bad news all round.  

Morne Steyn  -  Lambie or Goosen will be a vast improvement

Willem Alberts  - Slower than a carthorse, his contribution to the game as a whole is poor.

Kruger - Enough said - there is a half dozen locks in SA better than him.

Jannie du Plessis - He is at "sell by date" stage

Summary

The main contenders brought into the squad now as mentioned repeatedly are the following:-

JP Pietersen  - a very strong ball carrier and a clever player in attack and a good defender.   However, on attack is not the speediest around.

Jacque Fourie - a better defender. more experience, but in attack slow as a carthorse.   For the latter reason his replacement of Engelbrecht is not necessarily an improvement  

Goosen  -   Ten times better than Morne in all facets of play - bar perhaps kicking at goal 

Pieter-Steph Du Toit - A player that in a years time will together with Etzebeth be regarded as by far the best lock combination in word rugby.

Frans Malherbe - Already a better tighthead scrummer than  Du Plessis and much better than Du Plessis in ball carrying and defence.

That leaves the vexing question of what is to be done with the back row combination - likely to be determined during the coming Super 15 series.  

Mozart

As per normal living in the past again.   Jannie WAS one of the best tightheads in the world - he was not that in 2013.   The emphasis is on was - not is - in this case.  T ime to move on.  

 The great one-eyed spectator again.   The All blacks does not have the best scrmmers as props - so they are not really the guideline here.   Jannie is a regular donator his penalties in scrums nowadays and as I counted it represents at least one per game.

However, it is outside of the scrumming where he is not all there anymore.

Since when is Coetzee a good selector of players.   Any coach who select Juan Leaking Defence de Jongh ahead of De Allende is a nut case.   When  Malherbe came on on Saturday - there was a turnaround and the WP scrum immediately improved.- whilst he also showed up well in ball carrying and defence.