Bok team for June

Visser....this kid has potential, but needs to improve his tackling

JP

Serfontein ....I'd start him at 13, and not turn him into a crashballer

JdV

Habana

M Steyn....at the moment he has more gravitas than Lambie

Pienaar...none of our S15 scrummies are test quality at this time.

Beast or Coenie if he isn't ready

Strauss

Malherbe

Eben Etzebeth

Juandre Kruger

F Louw

Alberts

Vermeulen...and if not avaliable..... van der Walt

We need one power runner, and Alberts is the only player we have who can power through test defences. Situations to avoid.....Pierre Spies, Hougaard,Jantjies, lightweight flanks like Labuschagne, Coetzee as a starter, starting with Steph I'd have him on the bench, Mvovo, Rhule, the Wooly Booly, Deysel, Werner Kruger, Daniels, Vermaak or Pretorius, Kitshoff, Flip, Chile and as always, Luke Watson.

Mozart

Alberts  had a shocker on Friday - the theory is OK but the question is - is Albeerts still  he is a forceful carrier of the ball?   He had one game at Super `15 level this year - showed absolutely nothing  as a ball carrier and had a very poor game in all other respects.   That is confirmed by his stats for the game - which was as follows:-

However,  Is  slow ball carrying the only function of a blindisde flank?    I gained the impression that you think it is the only requirement - I would rather have a player who can carry the ball and at the same time defend properly and be useful in ball turnovers and line-outs.   Alberts is way to slow a player to get to get to points where he can play a role in defence and besides that is not a a good enough reader of the game.

If strong ball carrying is the only requirementof a blind side flank - why not play Bismarck Du Plesssis as a blind side flank?   To be quite frank - I think the strong ball carrying in traffic is mainly the function of the tight five and you do not need a one-dimensional flank forward to provide that function as well.  

However, I tested your ball caarying capacity by Alberts in tests last year by using the ESPN stats.   He showed some capacity in carrying balls against the weak English touring team in the first two tests last year, against a weakish Irish outfit in Dublin, in the Pretoria test against a weakened Aussie side and Argentina in the Cape Town test.

In all other tests - like the game on Friday - he never  made any impact whatsoever in that Department of the game.   In other words - if you play weaker teams - yes he makes an impact - against stronger teams the impact is Zero.   But those are stats to be ignored when it does not fit your theories.

Why not add De Jongh with his shockind fensive stats to your list of players to be avoided?    Mvovo does not deserve to be on the list - he was very good in all aspects of the game this year and your prejudice is showing you up badly.   

 My side would be:

15. le Roux 14.JP 13.JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Habana 10. Lambie 9. Hougaard 1. Beast 2. Strauss 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Steph du Toit 6. Brussouw 7. Coetzee 8. A.Botha 16. Chiliboy 17. Malherbe 18. de Jager 19. Labascagne 20. v/Zyl 21. Morne 22. Jean

Vermeulen will not be ready for the June tests. If Bismark makes a S15 appearance then he would be on my bench.

Moz, I am with you on Visser, this lad has it. I am not happy with Habana's form at present so would be tempted to play Mvovo or Rhule ahead of him. I might play Labascagne at 7 ahead of Coetzee. Agreed on v/d Walt he has been very impressive this year.

I dont like Jeandre Kruger's lack of physicality so he would not form part of my Bok equation, I would have de Jager or Flip as my back-ups. Steph du Toit is ready for test rugby.

The mind boggles! Hougie at 9!!!! Snapster i beyond helping but Isahll try. Hougie has been putrid a tscrummie. He cant even pass the ball properly!!! Where are the attacking snipes which should be a future of his game. He is playing as a link and a poor one at that. Two step passes and poor passes.

Brussouw - crazy stuff. Your only loose froward worth a shout is Arno. Coenie a tighthead - NO. Good front row would be Coenie, Stauss and Malherbe.

Locks out of Etzebeth, Du Toit, Flip and De Jager. Pity Lictoring Landman has not had more opportunity like to see him start fo rthe Cheetahs. I worry a bit about having two kids at lock but give them a go against Scotland. Labbers long before Coetzee.

Louw, Arno/van der Walt and Labuschagne would be a nice attacking loose trio. I thought Albert had a pretty good first half so let s see how he goes as he gets fit.

Steyn is the fyhalf of course. Scrummie - well vermaak,  is probably the guy but Van zyl and Reinach are good as well. Pienaar to me is too passive?

Snasper backline apart from the half backs is a posssibility. Question is when to drop Jean. Definitely NOT Rhule the guys is like a cork bobbing in the waves. Killian also closed him down badly and showed that although quick off the mark his pace is not that great. He is by no means ready. Mvovo on the other hand has toughened up a bit and is a possibility. Van Der Heever continues to vegitate on the bench thanks to that half wit Allistair.

 Beenkop, Hougie has been spot on this year. He is a proven test star, his selection at 9 is an easy one.

Ligtoring are you bloody joking, man you are dumb - what the hell has he done to merit a start for the Cheetahs - the bloke is an old man

I dont know too much about Lictoring snapster but he was very good when coming on against the Reds. I would like to see how this 120 kg powerhouse performs if started. Uys has been very workmanlike so no criticism of this hard working lock.

Man have you heard of rotation. Give the guy a chance.  He maybe what is needed against the Bulle. Beatthe bulle up front and they have had it.

How I looked forward to the Beeno 940 kg power pack thrashing the bulle and the other sides in the Super 15. Fate can be very cruel!! 

Beenkop, if Ligtoring had any clout, he would have been noticed ages ago. At 1.96m he seems a little short for a true lock and the guy turns 27 in a few months. Hardly new kid on the block. Uys is a makeshift lock as he is even shorter than Ligtoring, so the Cheetahs dont need two short arses at lock, given Ligtoring would have to replace de Jager as he is also a 4.

Drotske stuffed up by snubbing young Carl Wegner last season. When he woke up to how good he was and played him in the CC, it was too late as he had signed with a French club. He was Etzebeths Baby Bok lock partner, is 2.01m and around the 120kg mark. He would have been the perfect partner for de Jager

Oom Maaik I keep telling you, tests are a different game. Alberts hasn't played that much this S15, which if you've read Noakes' book, will tell you....he'll be ready at test time.

The same comment is true for all the young scrummies. I like van Zyl for the bench....but Pienaar provided the fast link we needed last year. Yes he isn't the greatest tackler. But nobody in SA rugby gets the ball moved 20 metres from the deck, faster and more accurately, than Pienaar.

By the end of the season we may see Steph as a starter. But he isn't as developed as Etzebeth was this time last year....play him off the bench a bit and see if his apparent physical talents hold up at test level. Kruger is playing excellent rugby and partners well with Eben. Andries is a great loss.

As for Mvovo, it's not bias Maaik. It's memory. Memory of his performances in big matches against international wings. Memory of that mess against the Bargies. Head problems tend to return....which is why I would never play Quade Cooper ahead of O Connor, a tough nut. But we don't need to roll the Mvovo dice.

HasBeen you have just gotten enamoured with the name "Lictoring".....this guy is a journeyman.

 15.Le Roux  14.JP  13.JJ  12.Jean 11.Habana  10.Morne  9.Reinach  8.Botha  7.Labuschagne  6.Brussouw  5.Du Toit  4.Etzebeth  3.Coenie  2.Strauss  1.Beast 

16.Chiliboy  17.Malherbe  18.Kruger  19.Louw  20.Van Zyl  21.Lambie  22.Jan Serfontein 

Habana's form has been decent, remember what you said last year about him? Form is temporary, class is permenant applies to this man completely. I don't think Serfontein is ready to start, he seems to be getting injured too often in Super Rugby and I'm beginning to think his ability is there but his body endurance needs some time to adjust. 

I was fine with Habana last year....a few years back I questioned his loss of pace, but he has found a new groove. You may be right about Serfontein. He has been used to take a lot of contact and he is a competitor, so he hasn't shirked that duty. Which is why I would move him to 13....he is a far less nervous player than JJ, and reads the game infinitely better.

Starting with Coenie is ok, but not at tighthead. Far better to use him off the bench with an eye towards loosehead eventually. The ABs would target him at starting TH.

Your back row lacks physicality and experience. It's just another version of the Coetzee/Daniels set up from last year. That didn't work. Playing against monsters in the back row, you need at least one of your own.

Test rugby among the forwards comes down in part to a test of strength.

My side would be: and the side that Meyer would choose if he was not stupid

1. Pat Cilliers

2. Craig Burden

3. coenie

4. Anton Bresler

5. Brussouw 

6. Coetzee

7. Luke Watson

8. Spies

9.Hougaard

10.Elton Jantjies

11. Mvovo

12. Meyer Bosman 

13. Juan De jong

14. Frans Steyn

15. Lambie

Mozart

I have said in the past I am agaist playing a player on reputation.   Basically Alberts had only one match this year to look at - and as you said tests is a different ball game altogether.   That is why I looked at his 2012 form and it made poor reading insofar as ball carrying in tests was concerned.  Against weaker opposition he did show some capacity - the teams invovled was really not beyond Super 15 level - against stronger opposition he showed NO CAPACITY at all - he was even weaker than Coetzee against such opposition.

That is why it is impossible to even consider him for election at this stage - he will be doing what he did the whole of last year - it not worse - so he is to my mind at thisstage a no-no.

I asked why De Jongh should not be on the list of players not to be considered under any circumstances - no response so you must still harbour hopes for that useless player for selection - not so?

Fattex  if I may make a suggestion for your missing  lock....look no further than De Kock Steenkamp......I like my locks to have two surnames.

Oom Maaik take your pill.

Mozart

No pill needed.  Trying to divert issues away from facts again - in other words ignoring stats when it does not serve to support your comments and using of selective stats when it fits your puspose.    My suggestion is - have a Chivas Regal and start moving with the times and forget about what happened in 2011 - then we can have a reasonable discussion.

 I would have Vermeluen but he's injured and the same case with Burger. Willem Alberts didn't show anything on the weekend and I'm pretty sure Labuschagne is physical enough 

 Currently I am enjoying a 25 year old Bunnahabhain.........this stuff is pure nectar, and promotes remarkable clarity of thought. All these lighties in the packs,  running around in Super rugby, would be manhandled in tests.

my team for June!

15.Daniller 14. JP  13. Serfontein 12. Jean  ( or vise - versa )11. Habana 10. Lambie 9. Pienaar 8. Spies 7.Alberts  6. Brussouw 5.Kruger  4.Etzebeth 3. Melherbe. 2.Strauss 1.Coenie 16.Chiliboy 17.Beast .18.Du Toit 19.Coetzee  20.Van zyl  21.  JJ   22. Le Roux

backup: Labaschagne , Aplon , Reinach , Mvovu, Hougaard , Botha , Jannie, M Steyn , Rulle !

Not sure about Bismark but will add him to the squad. 

1. Coenie

2.Strauss

3.Jannie

4.Etzabeth

5.Bekker

6.Louw      (if overseas players not chosen then Brussow)

7.Labuschagne

8.Vd Walt  (would be Vermuelen but injured)

9. Vermaak

10. Steyn

11. Habana

12. Eberson

13. Jean or JJ

14. JP

15. Lambie

16. Chillyboy

17. Nyakane

18. De Jager

19. Brusssow if Louw available/ Botha

20. Van Zyl

21. JJ

22. Aplon

From looking at this thread, bar Saffex, I see way too many conservative, inside the box selections. I dont agree with all Saffex' selections but he is clearly a man willing to make a change so we dont see more of the same! Its been said that Albert Einstein once said, "The definition of insanity is to keep trying the same thing over and over whilst expecting different results!"

This is what that looks like.

Pienaar was good in his day but he is getting older now which unfortuantely means he is probably going to remain the same or start going out in form. He is not busy enough from the base and is never going to keep defenders around the fringes on their toes. His 20m pass can be a liability if the defence has not been sucked in and we have not "earned" the right to take the ball wider.

Guys must remember combinations. Why has Morne played well this year? Could it be Vermaak or Hougaard? Would Pienaar and Morne together not do justice to the exciting Serfontein and JDV?

I was a big Lambie promoter but, and I hope this is just because the team is suffering, I hope he starts showing some of his old running game now that the monkey is off the back after the Force win because Lambie can not come into contention in current form.

When selecting teams, lets look not at names but rather combinations across the field that compliment each other. Pienaar is a 1 dimensional scrummy and this makes the 10 much more transparent too and their job a lot harder. With Vermaak, pretorius and co, you never know what they going to do and you need to constantly give them attention and that free's the 10 up a fraction longer!

Fourie Du Preez was a handful and needed constant attention. Morne was more reigned in and "safe" so they complimented each other. Morne has not looked the same since Fourie's ommision from Bok squad.

At center, Serfontein and JDV will compliment each other. JDV is big and strong and will go forward whilst the exciting serfontein will play off him.

Its a tough job selecting but I feel too many guys here have gone for the names they know but we are going to see the same results with those names as we have the past many years!!

BLchange can either be good change, or change that makes things worse. The fact is a team is best evolved. I would say 5 new players is the absolute max. In the team I suggest we have a new fullback, outside centre and a new tighthead. If there was an alternative to Pienaar I'd go for it. But believe me he is miles ahead of guys like Pretorius and Vermaak. Van Zyl probably offers the most, but needs bench time. The other player I'd be willing to change would be at 5 lock, but I fear Steph needs more time and should start off the bench.

There is probably a whiff of staleness about the team. That probably comes because of the return to Morne at 10, when we were all hoping Goosen was Maud Dib. Sadly he seems out for this season.....and of the remaining options, it boils down to Lambie or Morne. I'm amazed Lambie hasn't grown this S15, but the honest answer is he has shrunk. So sadly we have to live with a stale odor....but it's better than losing.

We have a core of experienced players that need to take us forward like JP, Habana, Frans, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Chiliboy, Strauss and Brussouw. That's 9 experienced players.

Add to this certain youngsters who are incumbents or close like Lambie, Goosen, Coenie, Etzebeth, Coetzee and Vermeulen. That's 6 certainties for the match 22, bringing our core to 15 players if we include the experienced players above.

There may be place for the likes of Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Jannie, Flip, Alberts, Spies and Louw, but I am inclined to believe its time to move on from these players.

There are certain players who have been playing for the Boks who are just not good enough and they include Kirchner, de Jongh, Juandre Kruger and Cilliers. These players have no place in the side.

So we should be taking our core of 15 players and finding another 10 or so to make a squad of worthy Boks. The 10 should come from the likes of Visser, Taute, W.le Roux, Rhule, v/d Heever, JJ, Serfontein, de Allende, Jantjies, v/Zyl, Reinach, Kitshoff, Nkanyane, M.v/d Merwe, Malherbe, Cooper, Steph du Toit, de Jager, Willemse, Kolisi, Elstadt, Labascagne, A.Botha and v/d Walt

Yeah Saff, I must be completely honest with you, I have not watched Serfontein all year. I do not watch Bulls games simply because of time difference. I watch only Sharks.

My thoughts are that JDV is still the best 12 in SA and he will be that rock that we need in the mid-field. He is more than just a solid player and I feel he must be excluded only when he can offer SA rugby no more. At this stage he still offers so much. Serfontein is untested and until he can outplay JDV on the highest stage in a number of games, we can not discard our only world class centre.

Serfontein is very likely to be the future but he has the benefit of time and he will be a better player from spending a year or two learning from JDV. This may mean that JJ misses out but I would like to see Serfontein specialise at 12 and become a great 12 as opposed to a decent 12 or 13!

JJ needs to sort out that "no mans land" defence flaw he gets himself into. Question is, can this be easily rectified or is this just the way he reads the game? Some players either have it (Conrad Smith, Jacque Fourie) or they dont! Chances are, if he gets himself into that position in a test, it may cost dearly! Nothing wrong with his ability to tackle, I have seen that before, its just being in the wrong place on the field in defence that I see others talking about.

 Well Boklogic, for a start Serfontein has been better than Jean already and is without doubt our best 12.

If you have not watched the Bulls then how can you comment of JJ's defence. I see no issue with his defence at all, in fact I see it as a strength. He has perfected the art of snuffing attacks out like Fourie and Jean do.

We need to move on from old man Jean.....I'd be happy to retain him in the match 22 but we need Serfontein and JJ getting plenty of test game time

Twatlogic, just so I understand correctly, you say you haven't watched any South African teams other than the Sharks the whole year yet you still have some strong opinions about Jan Serfontein's ability and JJ Engelbrecht's "no mans land defence flaw".

Is that correct?

If so, can I ask what you're basing these observations on . . . without you getting all angry and tearful and threatening to punch me?

I don't watch many of the matches either but have strong opinions on players.  I also rarely take any statistics or match facts into consideration. Typically I just chose my favourites and classify other peoples views as stupid unless they concur with my own.

Bluebok, JP is out for the rest of the S15, having an op on his leg. Bekker is going to Japan, their contracts do not allow for players to be released to play test matches.

If I was selecting two sides, my selections would be:

15. W.le Roux / J.Visser

14. Mvovo / v/d Heever

13. JJ / de Allende / D.Swanepoel

12. Serfontein / Jean

11. Habana / Rhule

10. Lambie / Morne / Jantjies

9. Hougaard / v/Zyl / Reinach

1. Beast / Kitshoff / Nkanyane

2. Strauss / Bismark / Chiliboy

3. Coenie / Malherbe

4. Etzebeth / de Jager / J.Marais

5. Steph du Toit / P.Marais

6. Brussouw / Kolisi

7. Labascagne / Elstadt

8. Botha / Coetzee / v/d Walt

Rooinek, do I have to study your hillbilly parents everyday to know that they raised a cunt? No i dont. This has been confirmed by every other poster on here so they all cant be wrong!

As the last comment in my post says, "...defence that I see OTHERS talking about!" I am going off what I have read from many other posters who have watched him play. If he does not have this flaw in his game that others speak about, then best of luck to JJ. If he does, it is a serious problem. I have seen enough of Serfontein to know that he has what it takes. That coupled with write ups on him is plenty to make that call.

Same way I see write ups on you that confirm you are nothing but a prick who likes to stir the pot. What is the matter Rooinek? Were you touched, abused or whatever as a kid? Were you neglected. You going about making friends the wrong way.. Talk to us Rooi. We are a family on here. Tell us whats wrong. We can help you!

As I mentioned to you, after the Bulls tour I changed my opinion on JJ. I went from being anti-JJ to pro-JJ. I have watched only really highlights of the Bulls games this year but they only show like a few phases leading up to the tries or penalties.

Mike was talking about JJ's defensive flaws this year, not last year or last season. I will still watching Bulls games from this weekend as they look likely to be our only SA rep in top 6. I have a bad feeling that the Cheetahs might start fading away but I hope they are the real deal this year.

Last year JJ missed Kolisi through the outside gap, because he overran the move. Same thing in Rangers try this year. I saw him overrun the move last weekend. Forgive me if I don't believe he has fixed the problem, even though I do think his tackling technique is better.

Nor do I think last week' s evidence suggests Hougaard is an acceptable distributor from the base. To the degree that his confidence looks pretty much shot at this point. Last year his decision making at 9 was impacted.....now he looks almost slow in everything he does. It's a shame, but I really doubt he is the next Bok scrummie.

Then Dave on Cooper and Jantjies.....defence is a weakness for both. As posted elsewhere on here by Matey I think....he has the lowest success rate of any Aussie 10. Jantjies likewise is no secure tackler. Unlike the young Cooper he doesn't shirk the tackling...he's just bad at it..

Boklogic, with all due respect Mike does not know what he is talking about.

Moz, you are only picking up on 2 or 3 misses in a season resulting from the rush by JJ, what about all the success stories in his executing the rush. It is a flawed method as the margin for error is there and at times you will get it wrong as Habana has done too often this year.

JJ has got it right 90% of the time and that at times has been try saving. His tackling in a conventional defensive line is good, its the rush out that sometimes catches him short, but its been very rare. His strike rate is better than Habana's and certainly on par with a player like Jean.

Hougaards distribution this year has been very good, in fact I would say its been the best of all the SA 9's. He had one poor pass on Sat where the ball almost fell out of his hand in the execution of the pass, funnily it ended up in JJ's hands for his try. The only other time he had a poor pass was when a Highlander impeded his arm. For the rest his service was good and his general play was up there with the rest of the Bulls. It was certainly his least impressive game of the season. He has been good coming off the bench in all his other games. I feared that last year had scared him, but seeing him play this year has reassured me that he is getting back to his best. Most importantly his service has been pin point, giving Morne time on the ball.

I think both Jantjies and Cooper have improved defensively in a big way. Both used to be complete liabilities in this department much like Morne used to be. I dont see players running straight through these guys or a regular basis these days.

Okay, Twatlogic, I think I understand now. So your pitiful rugby "insights" are pretty much based exclusively on what you read on here . . . and your posts are actually no more than poorly written summaries of what knuckle-dragging morons like Baboon-ou and Moffie are saying?

I actually suspected this was the case when I first read some of your laughably weak contributions to this board but hey, good on you for admitting it . . . that must have taken some guts!

in terms of the bulls at the moment, yes, i have to trust the other rugby brains on here. i already admitted that unlike yourself who pretends to know all there is to know but fall way short of the mark everytime 

Oh, so now it's just the Bulls where you rely on other people's opinions?

Interesting. Earlier on you said (and I quote) "I watch only Sharks", so tell us, Twatlogic, when you post your mindless drivel about players from the Cheetahs, the Stompies and the Kings, what are you basing that on?

Oh and I don't pretend to know everything, little chappie, but I can spot a sad and pathetic little stick-insect loser trying very hard to sound like some kind of tough guy and failing miserably . . . albeit hilariously!

Well given a choice between a guy who openly admits his source......and a liar who got himself tied up in his underwear trying to explain how he posted "20 minutes" after the Sharks game. When in fact he posted  at half time  in the Welsh/Pom match. I'd pick the honest man....not the 50 year old dishonest lush.

Mozart

In the article posted on Cooper the issue of usage of statistical data was the determining factor on which the article was in fact based.  They probably use one of the statistical souces to determine why they think that Cooper's defence is poor.   However, what is weird is when stats are used to prove that Engelbrecht miss about 18% of all attempted tackles - Saffex grab a figure of 10% from the air somehow or make it iut that it is a fact.  I personally still think there is a problem with his not hacing the side line to help him with his tackles.

However, back to Cooper - one only have to look at Van Zyl's try on Saturday to realise there is a defence problem with Cooper.   He is not as weak as Jantjies in tackling though and he is a damn sight better than De Jongh - who has worse tackle stats than was quoted in the article.