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Bokke Team

Started by bobbok...39 REPLIES473 VIEWS· 03 Sept 2014, 10:38
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BO
bobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
03 Sept 2014, 10:38
#1
03 Sept 2014, 10:38#1

South Africa: 15-Willie le Roux; 14-Cornal Hendricks, 13-Jan Serfontein, 12-Jean de Villiers (captain), 11-Bryan Habana, 10-Morne Steyn, 9-Ruan Pienaar, 8-Duane Vermeulen, 7-Marcell Coetzee, 6-Francois Louw, 5-Victor Matfield, 4-Eben Etzebeth, 3-Jannie du Plessis, 2-Adriaan Strauss, 1-Tendai Mtawarira

Replacements: 16-Bismarck du Plessis, 17-Trevor Nyakane, 18-Marcel van der Merwe, 19-Lood de Jager, 20-Warren Whiteley, 21-Francois Hougaard, 22-Pat Lambie, 23-Lwazi Mvovo

CL
Claydog
Club Pro691 posts
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
03 Sept 2014, 10:50
#2
03 Sept 2014, 10:50#2
 Game on.
BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
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bluebokPro3,977 posts
03 Sept 2014, 11:21
#3
03 Sept 2014, 11:21#3
Glad about;1) Loosies including Whiteley on the bench2) Strauss ahead of Bizzie3) Van Der Merwe - I am interested to see what he offers at this level4) Wingers and fullback are top notch.5) Some of the fringe players that folks here have been calling for are finally get their chance
Undecided about;1) Jan Serfontein - De Allande was nothing to write home about, so lets see if Serfontein can add anything at centre2) Matfield - I am not a fan, but he may bring some stability. Loodfoet De Jager looked lazy, so much the same as Matfield, but at least Matfield offers leadership3) Morne - Stable but boring. Nobody else has put their hand up, so I guess he is the best of a bad bunch, because at least he'll kick his kicks and is decent, but not great, tactically.4) Mvovo - Has never performed at this level, but is very usefull at super rugby and Currie cup level. I am Hopefull, but I think he is like Wynand Olivier when it comes to playing for the Boks.5) Hougard - He is talented, but has just not been performing lately. Hopefully he can regain some confidence and perform as we know he can.
Completely p!$$ed off about;1) Pienaar - Predictable, slow and his aimless utterly kak kicking gave away possession countless times against Arg which had us defending most of the game. 2) Jannie Hopelessis - Got crushed in the scrum against Arg, and is absolutely absent in all other aspects.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Sept 2014, 11:30
#4
03 Sept 2014, 11:30#4
 Blokbok
Thanks for posting the team.   
Unfortunately it is a losing team being named by Meyer.   I do not thjink that team can win because -
*   one can have no faith in the half back pair -they would eliminate any potential bckline playand would cur out the backline as an atatcking factor;*   he Tight 5 has been weakened by the inclusion of Matfield in a situation where the scrumming of Jannie is already under pressure and where tthe rolling maul will be eliminated from the Springboks performances; *    the uncertainty as to Serfontein playing at 13 - where he has never played before in his life.
I think the problems will be the aimless kicking of Morne Steyn and Pienaar - the poor decisionmaking of Morne. the lack of grunt of Matfild and the poor scrumming effort to be expected.  
There are way tpoo many 30 years plus players in that team - and most of them has seriously declining performance records so far.     
CL
Claydog
Club Pro691 posts
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
03 Sept 2014, 11:56
#5
03 Sept 2014, 11:56#5
 I think your loose forwards are the goods and expect them to cause Aus some real headaches at the breakdown. Hooper is quick to get there but is not particularly strong over the ball. We have the backs to do the job but if you loosies punish us at the breakdown and we can't get clean ball we will struggle. The tight five will be interesting and I think we can hold our own there. We will get smashed in the lineouts and I am over the moon about your halves selections.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Sept 2014, 12:15
#6
03 Sept 2014, 12:15#6
 Allende and Lood should never have been dropped. I would ceertainly have Allende on bench before Mvovo.
I also dont like to half back combo. Its far too passive and will collectively kick to much ball away.Matfiled is a disasterous pick. Fortunately the Wobblies pack will be less of a handful than the argies. Maybe we can still best them with 4 tight forwards?
When will Meyer get it right. Win or lose this is not the best side we could field. 
BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:36
#7
03 Sept 2014, 13:36#7
I find it quite amazing that hardly anybody is even commenting on the Bok team. Like it or hate it, isn't that why we are here? 
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:40
#8
03 Sept 2014, 13:40#8
 Some oaks are working Bluebok. Many of the selections are as expected but a few blunders.
BO
Boklogic
Pro1,978 posts
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BoklogicPro1,978 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:42
#9
03 Sept 2014, 13:42#9
 This team is wrong!!! De Allende is in the 23 jersey and not Mvovo!
SH
Shezza
Pro2,471 posts
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:51
#10
03 Sept 2014, 13:51#10
 Jan Serfontein is not a 13 for crying out loud. They are completely different positions nowadays, even Brian O'Driscoll has said as much. 
SH
Shezza
Pro2,471 posts
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:52
#11
03 Sept 2014, 13:52#11
What Boklogic said.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,294 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
03 Sept 2014, 13:57
#12
03 Sept 2014, 13:57#12
It looks like Meyer is panicking because some of the changes are in the backline are extreme
Dropping Pollard from the match 22 is a major surprise. He has gone from the favourite to start at the world cup in 2015 to to not even in the match day squad in 2 matches. He played well against Scotland but did look out of it in the other 2 matches. He is a big player and looked like a loosie at 10. 
Ditto Delande, is another major surprise. 
The Pienaar and Morne combination is too much. Only one or the other as both will just mean aimless kicking
As for Whiteley, he leap frogs into the match day squad. Oupa must be feeling like window dressing.


BO
Boklogic
Pro1,978 posts
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BoklogicPro1,978 posts
03 Sept 2014, 14:00
#13
03 Sept 2014, 14:00#13
 Well, I hope its not there game plan to kick onto Folau. He will return it with aplomb against a 13 that is pretty slow and not used to defence in this channel..I can see massive space around Serfontein. 
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Sept 2014, 14:14
#14
03 Sept 2014, 14:14#14
 Oupa is window dressing. How in th wo rld does he make the side on merit? Not even an assured starter for the Cheetahas. A complete green horn.
Lambie is preferred to Pollard as he cover Flyhlaf and Fullback. 
Glad to hear Allende is at least on the bench.
PA
Pakie
Captain17,321 posts
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
03 Sept 2014, 14:21
#15
03 Sept 2014, 14:21#15
Questions:

1. Why drop Pollard out of the squad for Lambie of all people? Are we investing in this lad or not? If not then send him to the CC so he can gain experience. Don't stuff him around.

2. What will it take to move past Pienaar at scrumhalf?

3. Jean has test experience at 13 and the versatility to play there. To keep pushing rookies out of position is a needless gamble.

I can live with the forwards.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,294 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
03 Sept 2014, 14:50
#16
03 Sept 2014, 14:50#16
 Pakie I thought the same thing about moving Jean to 13 where he has played before. Delande could have had a better shot playing at 12 where he is more accustomed to.
I think it is is just a case that Jean is going to be playing the world cup at 12, and Jaque Fourie is going to be the outside centre. So who every is playing outside centre at the moment is just going to be a stop gap. 
The world cup centres are likely to be Jean, Jan and Jaque Fourie. 

Jan is the backup at inside centre if Jean gets injured, so perhaps Meyer is thinking may as well give  Jan some game time- albeit out of position at 13.  Perhaps  Meyer is thinking as well this is a good oppertunity to test Jan at covering the 13 position so that if he is on the bench he can cover either Jean or Jaque





CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Sept 2014, 16:33
#17
03 Sept 2014, 16:33#17
 Sharkbok
Jacque Fourie is p[robably the worst selection Meyer can make at 13.   The man is slower than a carthorse and useless in attacking play.   His defense is sound - that is if a player does not run past him with speed - like Davies did twice in the Welsh test in Novmber.  
Jacque Fourie is not an international center anymore.   He is slow already - what would he be in another year playing soft rugby in Japan.   Problem is he is getting over hthe hill already and would be a huge let dow in the WC next year.      
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Sept 2014, 16:46
#18
03 Sept 2014, 16:46#18

Yep I'm afraid the performances of De Allende and Pollard have opened the door for the bog ordinary Lambie and Stepfontein. The team is about as good as one could expect.....Steppie for De Allende reflects how little talent we have at 13....neither should be playing. Pienaar has created two tries so far,  he is the best choice, but not inspirational. Jannie will be fine. Victor willl add so much more than Lomp.

 

 

The bench is a collection of demoted players Lambie, de Allende, Hougaard, Lomp and Bismarck.  I think Bismarck could come on at the half and play like a man possessed.

 

Then there is the very vulnerable Marcel van der Merwe. Hope we don't need him...he will fail.

 

Nyakana and Whitely are lucky packets....who knows 

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Sept 2014, 16:49
#19
03 Sept 2014, 16:49#19
Its a crap Bok side.......Hendricks, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Jannie, Matfield, Whiteley and Louw should not be in that side.....they sell us short in a big way.   
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Sept 2014, 16:55
#20
03 Sept 2014, 16:55#20
 Snapster your idea that Louw at 29 is over the hill is daft. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Sept 2014, 16:56
#21
03 Sept 2014, 16:56#21

You mean Hendriks and Jean the two players who recued Salta? Pienaar who has featured in two of our four tries? Morne who landed a conversion from the touchline to make the winning points difference? Louw who was our best player in both games? Victor an all time great vs Lomp a lazy kid?

 

You are a funny man Sapp.

KI
kingcorn
Pro3,695 posts
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
03 Sept 2014, 17:04
#22
03 Sept 2014, 17:04#22
 I can't believe that we have not been developing any decent 13's over the last couple of years. We have loads of good 12's but no genuine 13's. I don't think it's just SA struggling to find some decent cover at 13. 
If you look at our current Super rugby teams and who are playing 13 consistently.
Cheetahs - Sadie (Did well in 2013 with Ebersohm on his in side but was poor in 2014)Bulls - JJ (Retreaded wing, backup is Small-Smith, not enough professional experience)Lions - Mapoe (Retreaded wing, Stokkies, not enough experience)Stormers - De Jongh (No distribution and can only step)Sharks - S'thole (Did a great job early on in Super rugby but also a retreaded winger, Jordaan is a natural 13 but have no defensive skills and often knocks balls on)
There we have it, we really need to get the provinces to invest in some decent 13's and decide on the style of players. 
Jacque Fourie in his prime was the A-typical SA 13. If you look at some of our past 13's. We had:
Jacque Fourie / AD Jacobs (Great impact player but week on defense)Marius Joubert (Injury Prone)Andre SnymanJapie Mulder 
The more I think about it I come to realise that we needs successful center combinations which we don't have at the moment. 
I thought that Frans and JP would have been good prospects for us but with them chasing the yen, there is no chance in having a great center combo. 
The most successful centre combo's that we have had
De Villiers / FourieBarry / JoubertMuller / SnymanHennie Le Roux / Japie Mulder
but that was since readmission. 
I think that Meyer is short changing us in not find a decent center combo
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
03 Sept 2014, 17:14
#23
03 Sept 2014, 17:14#23
Nice post Corn, we do have a big problem at 13. But of the choices we have I would go with de Jongh this year. Not because he is ideal....but because all the other choices appear fatally flawed. De  Jongh is technically sound and playing a fine linking role in the exciting WP backline.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
03 Sept 2014, 17:23
#24
03 Sept 2014, 17:23#24
 KC, Maybe you should revisit your last sentence:

"I think that Meyer is short changing us in not find a decent center combo"

You have, after all, just showed us how bare the cupboard really is at S15 level and then you say that Meyer is to blame. Isn't he more or less playing the cards that he is dealt with?
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Sept 2014, 17:41
#25
03 Sept 2014, 17:41#25

King don't be sucked up by Meyer's failings......instead of investing in JJ after his best test against the AB's he dropped him and now after 2 tests he is doing the same to de Allende.......both more than capable of being good 13's.

 

 

Meyer is bloody clueless and has no idea what he is doing.

 

 

Other good 13's about are Pat Howard, Sithole, Stokkies Hanekom, Tyler Fisher, Jessie Kriel, Taute, Dries Swanepoel and potentially Kobus v/Wyk of WP who played all his age group rugby at 12. 

 

There is plenty of material to work with

sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,294 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
03 Sept 2014, 18:07
#26
03 Sept 2014, 18:07#26
 Saffex
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 9027RE: Bokke Team
September 03, 2014, 15:41:20

Meyer is bloody clueless and has no idea what he is doing.

 

 

Other good 13's about are Pat Howard, Stokkies Hanekom, Tyler Fisher, Jessie Kriel, Dries Swanepoel. 




None of which even have SuperXV experience to prove that they can even make it at that level yet, never mind international level . 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
03 Sept 2014, 18:27
#27
03 Sept 2014, 18:27#27
Sharktwat and therein lies the issue, we have useless coaches in SA who fail to recognise talent  
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,294 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
03 Sept 2014, 18:51
#28
03 Sept 2014, 18:51#28
Surely they recognise the talent, they are in the Curry Cup Squads after all. It is just you allways over rate young players even when they get the chance and prove little. 
Put these juniors in a test game against the All Blacks next week and it would damage their careers beyond repair. The reality is that most young players do not have the ability to reach test level. However they will have the CurryCup to prove they are SuperXV level, and then those that make it to SuperXV will have this level to prove they deserve the opportunity to step up to test level. 
The reality is most of these junior players will be cart horses at SuperXV level lacking the ability to pass and run good lines. They looked ok at junior level because they are stronger than some of the other kids they played against. That will count for squad at senior level where they will be required to use skills and brains to set do well.

KI
kingcorn
Pro3,695 posts
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
03 Sept 2014, 19:20
#29
03 Sept 2014, 19:20#29
 Thanks Cera for pointing out my "mistake", but as the SA national coach. The directive should come from Meyer as to who he would like to see playing 13. He is the Head coach of SA and has been selected because his the best. One year JJ was a wing and then when Sadie failed at the bulls Meyer moved him to 13 and that is where he played since. 
A national coach has a lot of influence on provincial teams. Habana was playing as a 13 in the currie cup, Jake spotted his pace and brought him on as a wing and by the end of the year scored on of the most memmorable tries against England, even though we last. It showed that we were on the right track. Habana then moved to the bulls where he featured on the wing but expressed that he wanted to play 13 at some stage again a few years on he got his chance to play 13 for the boks but got hopelessly exposed as poor defender. 13 is the hardest position to defend, you have absolutely no cover and even the best get's exposed. 
I personally think that Ebersohm should have been in the bok squad. He has fantastic defence, not the biggest players but also an excellent line breaker. If you look at some of the recent successful international 13's, they aren't that big. 
Brian O'driscoll, Conrad Smith, Adam Ashley Cooper, even Fekitoa. 
I hear you Mozart, De Jongh should be in the squad as a short term gap but at least knows his center partner and can play with both De Allende and De Villiers
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
03 Sept 2014, 19:35
#30
03 Sept 2014, 19:35#30
 Mo(zart)ron
hell - he we have the case of the demented at it a gain.  You would go with  De Jongh - the most mediocre defender in SA - forgetting he went AWOL in the Twickenham  and Murrayfield tests the last time he was in the Springbok team.   
The center who had the worst defending record in  SUper 15 in 2013 and 2914 and the poorest player at center in the game.   
The problem is not the position at 13 - the problem is the inclusion of the Stade Francais Reject, Pienaar and the overhyped Matfield in the team.   Those are the three positions wher ewe are going to fall flat on Saturday. 
The p0ther player I am ver worried about is De Viilliers - as good as he was last year - this years perfoiormances so far in Super 1 5 and the tes ts was average.    Is he going to be of any value on Saturday - that remains to be seen.
Then we have Jannie still in the team - the greatest benefit we got from Salta is the absemce of the dismal Steenkamp from the squad - and I think there was at least two cases which open Meyer's eyes to a little bit of reality - the fact that Steenkamp and Bakkies Botha is nowhere to be seen.
That brings me back to Matfield - how long will it take Meyer to get over this individual?   I think he will let us down on Saturday in the Tight  5 and we will get nowhere up front.   We are indeed lucky because Alberts is not in the squad, b ut we still have the sick concoction of Matfield and Jannie up front.
This is a recipe for diaster and one can only hope that the winning margin of the Aussies will not be too big.        
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
03 Sept 2014, 20:00
#31
03 Sept 2014, 20:00#31
Wasn't trying to "ou Maaikie" you at all, Kingcorn, if you know what I mean. I do not think that it is as easy as you, and probably a lot of us would like to, think. HM was not the Bulls coach when JJ was moved to 13. JJ moved to the Bulls in 2012 when HM became Bok coach.

These were JJ's first few games for the Bulls:

  1. v Sharks. On for Sadie after 12 min.
  2. v Cheetahs. On for Basson after 67 min.
  3. v Blues. On for Francois Venter after 45 min.
  4. v Reds. On for Sadie after 52 min.
  5. v Stormers. On for Sadie after 50min.
  6. v Crusaders. Effectively on for Sadie after 50 min. (Kirchner went of and JJ came on. Kirchner back after 10min, and then Sadie went off and JJ took over at 13)
  7. v Lions. On for Sadie after 69 min.


Yes, Jake did use Habana as a wing first but one would never know what would have happened because Habana never went back to the Lions where he played 13. After that EOYT he moved on to the Bulls. Jake has made quite a number of balls ups of his own though. He was banging on about the Bulls playing Jaco vd Westhuizen ("our national flyhalf" as he put it) at no 15. Kaco had one of his best games for the Boks at 15 and then he got injured and was replaced by Brent Russel.


I think you are correct about the 13 position and its expectations , though, and that explains the predicament HM is in. It is easy to pluck names like Taute, Jesse Kriel, etc out of the air but it is totally another ball game at international level.

BL
Blikkies
Pro1,526 posts
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
03 Sept 2014, 23:16
#32
03 Sept 2014, 23:16#32

I agree with most of the forwards selections, although I still have doubts over Beast. Would have liked to see Schalk vd Merwe (Lions) in there.

My main concern is Ruan Pienaar. I think Hougaardt would have been better - not for his ball distribution, which is as good/poor as that of Pienaar, but for his defence. Hougaard is certainly a better defender than Pienaar.  

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Sept 2014, 01:00
#33
04 Sept 2014, 01:00#33
 Jean was awol in both the argies test - he is a spent force.
Hendricks is good, test material he is not
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Sept 2014, 02:00
#34
04 Sept 2014, 02:00#34
 What we are facing for the first time since our super class of 2003, is genuine weaknesses in key positions...13 and scrum half. And shallow depth at prop and 7 flank.
These are not Meyer created issues. It's just how the cards fall. Thankfully  he is decisive enough to make changes as warranted. We couldn't play the ABs with de Allende not understanding defensive alignment at 13.

SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
04 Sept 2014, 02:03
#35
04 Sept 2014, 02:03#35
 Rubbish we have class depth in EVERY position - Meyer is just too stupid and blind to this fact. Conservatism rules with this man.
Me have more class young talent than ever
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Sept 2014, 02:08
#36
04 Sept 2014, 02:08#36
"Me have more class young talent than ever"  I'm sure you do on your little lists fat ass, but unfortunately the results don't agree.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Sept 2014, 02:26
#37
04 Sept 2014, 02:26#37
 The results will not agree on Saturday either.   That team is at best a throwback to the team of 2011 that was a serious flop then.
What makes you think failed players like Matfield, Morne Steyn and Pienaar would not fail again in 2014?   They will fa il us again - that is inevitable.      
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Sept 2014, 03:19
#38
04 Sept 2014, 03:19#38
Matfield and Morne Steyn have never failed us. Pienaar is the only available adult at 9. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Sept 2014, 08:08
#39
04 Sept 2014, 08:08#39
 Mozartron
Matfield was in the Springboks team in 2010 and 2011,   A failed team at best.   
Morne was so bad in 2012  even Meyer had to drop him from the team - so bad that the local crowd boo-ed him - because he buggered up game after game.   Was he the failed flyhalf in the AB tests last year?  He was definitely the major reason for the Eden park and Ellis Park test flops.
Do you never watch rugby?   I  guess not - because you never see anything about  what happpened on the field of play.    
      

CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
04 Sept 2014, 12:11
#40
04 Sept 2014, 12:11#40


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12639 RE: Bokke Team
September 04, 2014, 06:08:32  Mozartron
Matfield was in the Springboks team in 2010 and 2011,   A failed team at best.   
Morne was so bad in 2012  even Meyer had to drop him from the team - so bad that the local crowd boo-ed him - because he buggered up game after game.   Was he the failed flyhalf in the AB tests last year?  He was definitely the major reason for the Eden park and Ellis Park test flops.
Do you never watch rugby?   I  guess not - because you never see anything about  what happpened on the field of play.    
      
Matfield was not the only Springbok in 2010/11. Bismarck, Beast, Jannie, JDV, Habana, etc were also in that team, if you haven't noticed. Unless in your minute little mind a team consists of one player.

Morne was a major reason for Ellis Park in that same minute little mind of yours as well.

In case you haven''t noticed, Habana was boo-ed in Bloem. Bloem or PE? Luke wa boo-ed at Loftus. Which crowd, would you say, was the more informed, or were they equally stupid.

— END OF THREAD —

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