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FORUM / RUGBY /  Boks and Pumas ... Good friends (a little history lesson)

Boks and Pumas ... Good friends (a little history lesson)

Started by Ek22 REPLIES791 VIEWS· 16 Aug 2012, 14:34
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EK
EkPro1,464 posts
16 Aug 2012, 14:34
#1
16 Aug 2012, 14:34#1

Rugby 365:

a great read guys, and tells a lot about the impact South Africa has had on the deveoplment of the game in Argentina. Saturday is a memorable day that Argentinian rugby wil treasure for a long time to come. Plus to mark this day for them against the Springboks at Newlands is just the icing on the cake.

Boks and Pumas ... good friends

Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:44

One may express the hope that they develop and improve sufficiently to throw down the gauntlet Go to Argentina when the Springboks are there and see the obvious Argentinian affection for them. A little bit of history tells you why this is so.

To Argentina rugby, South Africa has been a generous uncle. The connection started in 1905. It started with that great man Fairy Heatlie, who started playing rugby for the first time when he came to Bishops as an 18-year-old and then played for South Africa the very next year - the youngest forward ever to play for South Africa. He played for South Africa in 1891, 1896 and 1903, a giant of a man - and, captain in 1896 and 1903, he gave South Africa the green jersey which the Springboks still wear. He was earmarked to captain the first South African team to head to the Home Unions, as they did in 1906, but tragedy struck. Heatlie was the stuff of Greek tragedy. He who rose to great heights came crashing down, his hamartia perhaps greed, perhaps dealing beyond his ability. He was to be arrested when he got to a ship in Table Bay and sailed off to Argentina, where he battled to make ends meet. He was eventually brought back to South Africa, stood trial and was sentenced to two years' hard labour. Sentence served he managed to get back to Argentina where his wife and two sons were. And in Argentina he played rugby. In fact he played till he was 48 when broken ribs forced his 'early' retirement. A great rugby thinker he had his impact on the country's rugby. In 1910 the first touring team came from Britain to Argentina and they played a Test, Argentina's first Test, and in their team was Barry Heatlie. Having played against the first three such teams to tour South Africa, he played in the first to tour Argentina and his name is on the list of Argentinian internationals - the first South African to play for two countries, as Frank Hellish, Jack Gage, John Allen and Tiaan Strauss did later. In 1932 a powerful Junior Springbok team, captained by Joe Nykamp, swept through Argentina winning all nine of their matches including two against Argentina. Their manager was the great Paul Roos. After the tour he wrote: "One may express the hope that the day is not far distant when our late hosts will have developed and improved their game sufficiently to become our guests and throw down the gauntlet to the best we can pit against them." That day is now! The next contact was after World War II. The Junior Springboks toured - a great side which won both internationals but by small margins. But then came 1965, probably the greatest date in the history of Argentinian rugby, the year the Pumas were born. In that year the first Argentinian team left the South America to tour abroad and they went to South Africa. To prepare them the South African Rugby Board had sent the innovative Natal coach Izak van Heerden to Argentina, and how the country reveres him. That team, captained by Aitor Otaño became the first to be called the Pumas when a South African journalist mistook the cat on their badge for a puma when really it was a jaguarete. Pumas they have stayed. They are proud to be Pumas. They left Argentina quietly, became Pumas and beat the Junior Springboks at Ellis Park, for them an incredible achievement, which they celebrated at great length, loath to leave Ellis Park. They changed Argentinian rugby which was now ready to face the world. The Gazelles (South Africa Under-23) toured and then Argentina beat Wales, Scotland and Ireland in successive years. They drew with England at Twickenham in 1978. They would have loved to come to South Africa but the politics of the day, expressing universal abhorrence of apartheid, militated against rugby Politics got in the way of contact between Argentina and South Africa but they found a way round that - forming the South American XV, the Jaguars, who toured South Africa in 1980, 1982 and 1984 and playing the Springboks in South America in 1980 when they played the matches in Uruguay and Chile. This was the heyday of the great Hugo Porta, one of rugby football's finest. And in 1980 the Springboks went off to South America. Barred from Argentina they played two Tests against the Jaguars in Montevideo and Santiago. And in that Springbokm team for the very first time was a black player - the great Errol Tobias. The Jaguars were players from Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, Brazil and, in 1984, Spain. But essentially they were Argentinians. You will read that the Pumas have never beaten the Springboks. Technically that is right; morally it was as wrong as wrong can be. In 1982 the Springboks beat the Jaguars 50-18 in Pretoria but in Bloemfontein Porta scored in all four ways and amassed 21 points as the Jaguars beat the Springboks 21-12. One of those playing for the Jaguars that day was Marcelo Loffreda, now the Pumas' coach, the man largely lauded for the success of the current Pumas. That team of Jaguars was made up entirely of Pumas. The Pumas by any other name.... Politics allowed Argentina and South Africa to meet as Pumas and Springboks on the rugby field in 1992 and the next year off the Springboks went down South America way in mid-summer. Look at the results and you will see that matches between the two countries have been high-scoring affairs. The Pumas came close in 2000 when eccentric coach Harry Viljoen forbade the Springboks to kick and they came close to losing. But the closest to a Puma victory was in Port Elizabeth in 2003 when a last-minute penalty goal by Louis Koen won the match for the Springboks. Close rivalry is the keenest, and the Pumas would love to beat the Springboks - only because they love them so. The Springboks are a benchmark in Argentina

GA
garethedwardsClub Pro240 posts
16 Aug 2012, 14:47
#2
16 Aug 2012, 14:47#2

I honeslty didn't realise we "named" them that is amazing stuff and a great read. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
16 Aug 2012, 18:29
#3
16 Aug 2012, 18:29#3

Thanks Ek a nice bit of history. It could be nice to have an ally in the comp.

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
17 Aug 2012, 12:03
#4
17 Aug 2012, 12:03#4

 Yeah, hopefully we can build on this relationship and create a strong friendship with Argentinian rugby.

TA
TatoNewbie5 posts
05 Sept 2012, 06:07
#5
05 Sept 2012, 06:07#5

 Good article! We always looks at South Africa as our big brother. One interesting fact is that before the 1995 RWC Argentina was preparing everything in order to offer the country as the host for that RWC but once it was listened that South Africa want to organice it Argentina got down the idea in sign of respect and of course we support South Africa in they request for host the RWC.

I always thought that Argentina and South Africa should play an anual game and that trophey should be called Izaak Van Heerden Cup!

Best regards.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Sept 2012, 11:12
#6
05 Sept 2012, 11:12#6

A warm welcome to the board Tato. You guys are going to shake up the other sides in the championship and become a super power yourself. Great natural talent and plenty of passion.

I am looking forward to seeing your side against the abs and especially when you play them at home - ditto Oz.

Just hope these down under refs dont sharft you guys as well!  We have had endless problems with them.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Sept 2012, 11:30
#7
05 Sept 2012, 11:30#7

Ek

A very interesting history of the situation.   There is however, one aspect not mentioned and that is the fact that after the Anglo-Boer War a substantial number of Afrikaans people moved to Argentina to farm there and the influence of those people on rugby in Argentina cannot be under-estimated.   Many of the children came to SA Universities and went back to Argenitna and carried on a tradition of rugby there - that being one of the reasons also for the starting of a small - but important rugby culture in Argentina.   That influence did increase through the years and resulted in Argentina - despite competition from soccer - having a very substantial rugby-playing community at present.

What is very interesting is that many of the farmers leaving SA after the Anglo-Boer War settled in rural areas - also in the Mendoza area - which to some extend today is the strongest rugby area in Argentina. 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
05 Sept 2012, 11:41
#8
05 Sept 2012, 11:41#8

Interesting take on that Mike. I do know about the significant number of Boers that went to go and settle in Arggentina, and i also know that there still exists a comunity albeit very small over there that speaks the language. However I have never thought that this community would have influenced the Rugby over there. The Boers from that time weren't really playing rugby and considered the sport very English. Rugby only started taking route in the Northern Afrikaner menality after the Union was created and tat was long after the boer War. Moctly I think the Boers that went to go settle there went for other reasons, if they have played a role in the growing of the Game in Mendoza that it would have been purely by role of association. I would also not rate that role as very significant.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Sept 2012, 11:55
#9
05 Sept 2012, 11:55#9

Ek

True to some extend - but their children who studied at SA univrsities afterwards - played a major role as well.   There was rugby played before 1899 in the Transvaal and Free State though.  Many Afrikaans people from the then Republics studied at Stellenbosch University, since there was no Universities in the Republics.   Even  those days Stellenbosch was the cradle of the Afrikaans rugby community and remained so for decades afterwards.   In essence there was a rugby-playing community in the Free State and Transvaal - but the main competitive  areas of rugby then was in fact Western Province and Griquas.   Please also note that in the POW camps during the Boer War - rugby-playing was one of the main forms of relaxation of the prisoners.      

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
05 Sept 2012, 12:25
#10
05 Sept 2012, 12:25#10

 This is very interesting Mike, do you have some reading material on this?

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
05 Sept 2012, 12:28
#11
05 Sept 2012, 12:28#11

 

  Tato
 
Status: Orange peeler 
Posts: 1 RE: Boks and Pumas ... Good friends (a little history lesson)
September 05, 2012, 04:07:39

 Good article! We always looks at South Africa as our big brother. One interesting fact is that before the 1995 RWC Argentina was preparing everything in order to offer the country as the host for that RWC but once it was listened that South Africa want to organice it Argentina got down the idea in sign of respect and of course we support South Africa in they request for host the RWC.

I always thought that Argentina and South Africa should play an anual game and that trophey should be called Izaak Van Heerden Cup!

Best regards.

 

 

Thanks and Welcome Tato, I would like to ask, any specific reason for the Isaak van Heerden Cup?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Sept 2012, 13:50
#12
05 Sept 2012, 13:50#12

Ek

Many years ago I read a book by Deneys Reitz and the rugby plaaying was defnitely mentioned in his memoirs - so that may help a bit.

CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
05 Sept 2012, 16:10
#13
05 Sept 2012, 16:10#13

great post mike and ek......

 

very insitefull and amazing the history between the countries. there has always been a strong bond between pumas rugby and bok rugby

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
05 Sept 2012, 16:46
#14
05 Sept 2012, 16:46#14

Awesome article EK. It also explains why the Springboks were so well recieved in Argentina.

 

Nice!

TA
TatoNewbie5 posts
05 Sept 2012, 18:59
#15
05 Sept 2012, 18:59#15

 Hi and thanks for the welcome! I'm happy to be here :o)

 

What Mike said it's correct if mymemory don't fail it was in 1908 when a  group of Boers settle in Patagonia in the Province of Chubut near Comodoro RIvadavia, I remember years ago that a South African club came an palya a tournament there. Althougth I can not confirm what Mike said about the influence of those Boers in our Rugby History except for Barry Heatlie. Rugby was bringed with the British.

 

Izaak Van Heerden was a very important man for our first tour to SA, he gave us the confidence and the aknowlogment in how to play there. I know that in  many tours to SA the Pumas went into his grave and  gave their respect to him. This is why I think that it would be nice to have that cup.

 

Regards

 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
05 Sept 2012, 23:43
#16
05 Sept 2012, 23:43#16

Tato, welcome. I am quite sure that most South Africans will always support Argentina in all internationals not played against the Springboks. There have been quite some rough and dirty games between the Boks and some clubs when we toured over there in the past, but I think both nations enjoyed the rough stuff actually..., but after those hard games all the dirt was left on the field and the guys came together and celebrated the game of rugby over a couple of cold ones. Great respect between the two nations and long may it last. Go Argentina, give the Ozzies and NZ hell!

TA
TatoNewbie5 posts
06 Sept 2012, 06:05
#17
06 Sept 2012, 06:05#17

DbDraad, thanks for the welcome, yes I think that there is a special relationship between both countries! And believe that South Africa always want as to be their partner as NZ have Australia. (maybe not?)

Best regards.

 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
06 Sept 2012, 09:57
#18
06 Sept 2012, 09:57#18

 Hehe, tato we really don't want the relationship between ZA and ARG degrading into the same as the Relationship between NZ and AUS. We would prefer a better relationship :)

This is the first time i hear about this Izaak van heerden guy. Appreciate the respect shown by argentinian teams to his legend. I would like to hear some more if possible Tato. it does sound like a good candidate for naming such a trophy after.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Sept 2012, 10:27
#19
06 Sept 2012, 10:27#19

Hey Tato, another welcome from my side. Awesome to hear your opinions here...our first Argie on the Ruckers Forum, if I am not mistaken.

TA
TatoNewbie5 posts
11 Sept 2012, 04:05
#20
11 Sept 2012, 04:05#20

 Hi, Thanks bluebok for the welcome!

 

Ek, the history is more or less like this: In 1959 the Junior Springboks visited Argentina ant the manager of the delegation, promess here that after such a good tour, were the Jrs enjoyed the warm of the Argentineans that he will try to arrange an invitation for Argentina to Tour South Africa. In 1964 Danie Craven went to Brasil where it was played the South American Rugby Championship in order to see if the Argentineans can play a good Rugby. He was happy with what he saw so he made the arragement for that tour, In 1965 Two month before the Tour the SARFU sent Izaak Van Heerden in order to help the preparation for the tour. During the tour he was one more of the delegation he also wear the Pumas jacket! Most of the players made a special relationship with him. In 1966 he did return to Argentina as the couch of the SA Gazelles. 

Well that is a short resume,

 

Best regards. 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
11 Sept 2012, 04:44
#21
11 Sept 2012, 04:44#21

Tato

The Pumas played very well against the All Blaacks and they are really getting better all the time.   Look forward to further progress and wish them good luck.   

TA
TatoNewbie5 posts
11 Sept 2012, 05:34
#22
11 Sept 2012, 05:34#22

 Thanks Mike, we are playing very well but we still need to improve our atack. We are giving away to many balls.

I was always a big fan of SA Rugby because all the history that we have with you.

 

For us it's a dream came true! Not to many people know the fact that in 1992 or 1993 don't remember well Carlos Tozzi who at that time was the president of the UAR proposed a tournamet with the 4 countries, I still have the newspaper article. Of course and as we know that didn't happends and the Trination was born few years later.

 

Best regards. 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
11 Sept 2012, 09:28
#23
11 Sept 2012, 09:28#23

 Hehe, maybe we shoul;d then rename this crap Rugby Championship name to the Carlos Tozzi tournament :) Anything can be better then the Rugby Championship. man that so tells you nothing.

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