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FORUM / RUGBY /  Boks bring All Black mentality into their matches,,,

Boks bring All Black mentality into their matches,,,

Started by Monkey D Luffy19 REPLIES413 VIEWS· 30 Sept 2012, 19:10
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MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
30 Sept 2012, 19:10
#1
30 Sept 2012, 19:10#1
//Getty Images Springboks bring AllBlack mentality into their matches James Mortimer - (1/10/2012) - 7 Comments The Springboks have echoed their upcoming opponents, the All Blacks, in saying that they didn't need to change anything with their game plan, but just needed to be more accurate in taking their chances in the heat of test match battle.   The World Champions frustration throughout The Investec Rugby Championship that they were not able to take all of their opportunities, and the Springboks felt that their lack of recent success came from the same malaise.    There was hint of dissent among the South African rugby fraternity with the lack of convincing victories by their premier rugby team, entering Pretoria without three wins in their last three fixtures in The Investec Rugby Championship, but were able to silence any critics with a strong performance against a Wallabies team that eventually finished the test match without a full starting XV on the field.   Springbok captain Jean de Villiers looked unimpressed when asked if the team had changed much after a draw to Argentina and back to back losses against the Wallabies and All Blacks, with the centre saying that the entire time the side were still looking at playing towards the old pressure based blueprint that had been effectively employed by Bulls and South African outfits in the past.   "We haven't changed one thing," he said   "The thing that has changed is that we are now capitalising on the pressure we put on the opposition. People don't seem to understand that."   De Villiers praised debutant starting first five-eighth Johan Goosen, but said that the eventual outcome came from the team adjusting to the situation - something that coach Heyneke Meyer said his troops did not do effectively in their three match winless streak.   "We have shown that we can create," De Villiers said.   "Now we are starting to finish. It's not that we went out there with a more attacking mindset. It was more about playing the situation.   "If the opposition leave men back, then obviously there is more space to attack from close. If they bring men up, then you will kick to the back to find the space. No defence is watertight, there is always space. It's about finding out where that space is and exploiting it."   Meyer felt that the team could have done better.   "We have very high standards, and there were three more tries that we should have scored," he said.   "It's great to come home and win, and we haven't beaten the Aussies for some time, but we have to start taking those opportunities.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Sept 2012, 19:14
#2
30 Sept 2012, 19:14#2

Sasu

Interesting reading - thanks for the article.  They are going to downplay Goosen's role - the All Blacks should be wise and not fall for that one.   They better watch Goosen carefully and try and neutralize him - otherwise there would be serious problems for them.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
30 Sept 2012, 19:14
#3
30 Sept 2012, 19:14#3

heres my main arguments with the Boks errrrrr mentality. yes they didn preform well in the IRC and it reflected in their results, but the All Blacks didnt play very well either, even last night they drooped a few opportunities against the pumas. but dspite the problems both teams have, the All Blacks continue to get the job done and why ether its right or wrong, im confident about the sowetto test.

i have foned memories of that last test there. nonu giving smit his bott as a present for his 100th game and McCaw and dagg breaking 90,000 hearts in the last 10 minutes,,,,,sigh,,,,,,i think i know what to watch for the build up to the sowetto test now, :o)
 

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
30 Sept 2012, 19:18
#4
30 Sept 2012, 19:18#4
no problems mike, :o)
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Sept 2012, 21:46
#5
30 Sept 2012, 21:46#5

Sasu

Just one more thing - I did a quick compter check up on the ages of the present All Black Rugby team.   Do you realize that the average age of the team members are 29,99 years old - with the Backline having an average age of 27,3 years and the forwards 32 years.   If I was an All Black supporter I would be worried stiff about that one.   They are apidly approaching a team comprising rugby "geriatrics"   I believe, however, that the present younger players that can take their place are not on par with the present players.

Unless something is done - and done soon - this would be the last year the All Blacks would win the Championship for at least the next four years.   Never mind the 2015 WC - when the average each of the players - unless changed - will be 32 years of age.   I am not one that would like to see the All Black team going down - they are too important for World Rugby - but I sincerely believe that the matter is not receiving proper attention.

By the way the average age of the Springboks is 25  years. 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,301 posts
30 Sept 2012, 23:26
#6
30 Sept 2012, 23:26#6

 "they didn't need to change anything with their game plan, but just needed to be more accurate in taking their chances in the heat of test match battle."-  

1. I dont understand why this is an All Black mentality?

2. Having a running flyhalf instead of a kicking flyhalf makes a significant difference to taking chances. Morne is usually in the car park trying to setup a drop goal attempt.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Oct 2012, 10:45
#7
01 Oct 2012, 10:45#7

Sharkbok when you think you are the supreme gift to rugby and unbeatable you naturally think that anything any side does well is copying your own side. hahahhahahahahahahahaha

Lets face if if these nz oaks had even half a clue they would be admitting they were extremely lucky to have won the Dunedin test.  Frankly I cannot believe the ab players themselves are not greatly concerend. They know their days are numbered and the bubble is about to burst.

What will life be like for them when superstars like Bissie, Coenie, Schalk, And JP are back and in the match 22?

Ouch!!!!!!

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
01 Oct 2012, 10:57
#8
01 Oct 2012, 10:57#8

 Beeno, luck has nothing to do with it!

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
01 Oct 2012, 11:04
#9
01 Oct 2012, 11:04#9

Bean Brain ,how many cliches can you fit into one post...the writings on the wall for you my friend...your bubble is about to be burst...your days are numbered..coz the ABs just landed....

Will the boks beat the ABs simple question yes or no ??

No need for any caveats, provisos an yr usual subject to this and depending on that bs...too hard for you coz we all know the answer to that one...

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Oct 2012, 11:04
#10
01 Oct 2012, 11:04#10

Hakwa store it in your album for the days when the produce of the olive fails and there be no fruit on the vine!

It all reminds me of the ancient Babylonian King who saw the writing on the wall.  Found wanting Hawkwa found wanting.

 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
01 Oct 2012, 11:21
#11
01 Oct 2012, 11:21#11

 hahahahahahahahaha Beeno, luck had nothing to do with it BUT GOD had everything to do with it! I boast in GOD!

About Babylon, et in Jeremiah 27:6 of the Old Testament, God describes Nebuchadnezzar (the All Blacks) as His Servant(s).


This had to be unimaginable for the people of Jeremiah's day. And utterly horrifying. To them Nebuchadnezzar (the All Blacks) was the epitome of evil and a murderous despot(Team)  who ruled a ruthless superpower that was poised to overrun their lands (Teams), destroy their cities(Teams) and carry them off into captivity---- which in fact happened.

How could God through Jeremiah possibly say Nebuchadnezzar (the All Blacks) was God's servant? As a matter of fact this was similar to another prophecy made by Isaiah about Cyrus the Great which called the conqueror, My servant, His anointed. (Isaiah 44:28, 45:1) Both of these rulers had vast power over huge territories in the ancient Middle East. And their decisions determined much of the course of known world history during that time.

From the human perspective, Nebuchadnezzar (the All Blacks) and Cyrus were the world's greatest despots (Team) and greatly to be feared and resisted.
 

But the prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah, as well as history, bear out that ultimately these rules were not in control of the final outcomes. God was. (Remember God turned Nebuchadnezzar (the All Blacks) into a wild animal that lived in the wild for seven (24) years, before turning him (the All Blacks Team) back into a man (a great Team) who praised God for the rest of his (their) life?

Whether these kings (The All Blacks) admitted it or not, they were put in positions of authority by the Hand of God. As such they were God's servants, God's agents. And through their decisions they knowingly or unknowingly, ended up serving God's purposes in history.

If God is the King of all kings (Teams) and rulers in the modern world, what does that say about today's motley and scary group of leaders? Ultimately God is in control---in spite of our fierce oppostion and apprehension. He will use them (the All Blacks) and us to fulfill His ends, move history forward. And He will bring many to Him in the process.

Found wanting? Absolutely not Beeno!

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
01 Oct 2012, 11:47
#12
01 Oct 2012, 11:47#12

@clevermike,
ABs are going through a horses for courses approach, we have plenty of talent coming through in NZ, but as promising as they are, u dont put them in the All Blacks to build for the future, u put them in against certain teams.
as important as the RWC is to some, for me its a poor reflection of what a world championship team really is, the IRB No1 ranking is the most accurate gauge of what a world champion team is.
what im saying is, i dont want to build for the future at the expense of the present, All Blacks want to win every test, IMO every All Black test is a RWC final.

in saying that All Blacks over the last few years have done a better job of integrating youngsetrs into the team then both SA and australia, and then to say nothing of the talent we got back home in NZ who are relegated to the ITM.

here is what a possible All Blacks backline could look like with out anyone over 25,,,
9 aaron smith, 10 aaron cruden, 11 j savea, 12 ben smith, 13 r fruean, 14 zac guilford, 15 i dagg
20 tj perenara/t kerr barlow, 21 beauden barret, 22 andre taylor

then there are players who are at their peak age with huge value like richard kahui 27, SBW 27, masaga 26.
plus the ITM talent like peter saili, tom taylor and many many more.

its a fine line working these guys into the team to get them more game time, but All Blacks have ALWAYS  done so with out too much problems, and with savea and aarons smith getting more and more gametime, and cruden and ben smith making more and more apperances, IMO the All Blacks future does look good and ready to usher in a new era of experienced quality ABs, but for now the old guard has plenty of value which is important to keep the All Blacks legacy in tact, a legacy of winning, :o)
 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Oct 2012, 11:50
#13
01 Oct 2012, 11:50#13

Some truth here Hakwa but also some errors so allow me to rectify matters as always.

Firstly Hakwa please note where we are in the process. The clue I will leave with you is pride comes before a fall. Apply that to what happed to the very proud and ruthless Neb - hint his 7 years in the fields

Next the writing on the wall bit:

Daniel 5, in the story of Belshazzar's (Nothing at all to do with Neb) feast. To cut a long Old Testament story short, Belshazzar was indulging in a drunken revelry (As abs do after matches) and debasing sacred temple vessels by using them as wine goblets when a disembodied hand wrote 'mene mene tekel upharsin' on the palace wall.

On the face of it, and using a literal translation, this appeared meaningless. The expression seemed to mean 'two minas, a shekel and two parts' or alternatively 'numbered, weighed, divided'. None of this meant much to Belshazzar, who decided that he needed further interpretation and sent for the Jewish exile Daniel. It then became clear that the phrase was an elaborate wordplay, relying on the fact that each word can denote a different coin, and the third word can be interpreted as 'Persia'. Daniel's interpretation, as recorded in the first easily understood English version of the Bible, the King James Version, 1611, was:

And this the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. This the interpretation of the thing:
MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

That night the impregnable fortress Babylon wa staken and the Medes and Persians took over.

The point of the moral tale was that Belshazzar couldn't see the warning that was apparent to others because he was engrossed with his sinning ways.

so applying this to the abs - (which ofcourse it should be at all!!!) - their rugby kingdom is finished, its been handed BACK to the Boks and its all becasie=ue o ftheir sinning ays!! Mcceah BL etc etc.

Hakwa its amazing how well this applies to the abs but I am sure the Lord God would not want His word used in such manner. Daniel is of course one of the most remarkable and wonderful men who ever lived. Daniel Chapter 9 , I think it is, dealing with the 70 weeks of Daniel is mind blowing.

However I feel the only valid conclusion about all this is the abs are going doooooooown!

 

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Oct 2012, 12:15
#14
01 Oct 2012, 12:15#14

Sasu

Thanks for the info provided as to the younger players.   What worries me is that most cannot be compared favourably with the players they ultimately will have to replace.   Experience may help though.

You mentioned the backline - but I do believe the greater problems are in fact amoingst the forwards.    After all the average age of the present forwards are 32 years - much higher than the averae age of the backs at 27,3 years.   I cannot say much on that score - but judging on what I saw in the ITM matches as well as Super 15 - there are more problems getting forwards through to international level than backs insofar as New Zealand is concerned.  

Insofar as those players already on the fringes are concerned - I have some reservations about both Retallick and Cade.   They are good - but we have at least 5 better locks and a similar number of better loosies  in SA than they are. 

Insofar as the backs are concerned - there are question marks about Cruden - the best of your potential flyhalfs.  Cruden is no Carter - he has some good attiributes, but Cruden under pressure is not a nice sight to see.   Same applies to Barrett.   I rate Smith, Savea and Dagg very highly - but the others can at best be descibed as good players on Super 15 level  with average performance potential on international level,

The other issue is the Under 20 players.   You mentioned that some of the Under 20"s from New Zealand was not allowed to play in the WC - but the same applied to SA.   However, the Under 20 forward pack from New Zealand was pathetic - and that to my mind is not a good sign as well.

However, I still maintain - forget about the rugby "geriatrics" for the next WC and build up a younger team - even if it is not beneficial for performances in the meantime.   Dont repeat the mistakes made by past WC winners and keep the old players in place - rather lose some matches inbetween and build a competitive team for 2015.

Maybe a loss on Saturday would add some stimilus to the process - but in the meantime keep the Heineken at hand to deal with the sorrrows after the game.:)

 

 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
01 Oct 2012, 12:26
#15
01 Oct 2012, 12:26#15

 "indulging in drunken revelry????" Beeno are you sure you are not mistaking us for the Wallabies? Drunken revelry, fighting with bouncers, stealing old ladies laptops, not turning up for Team photos, fighting with Team mates, slagging off your coach and Team publically LOLZ!

Sorry Beeno but we are not arrogant or presumptuous! We are very humble Beeno but why don't you talk up your Team :D :-))

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
01 Oct 2012, 13:17
#16
01 Oct 2012, 13:17#16

@clevermike,

i dont agree with forsaking a few matches now just to build for the future, IMO very All Black test is special and once upon a time, the Boks and the welsh shared this mentality, but for various reasons, the All Blacks are now alone in this line of thinking, and a big reason why we have been thre most successful team ever.
when players both past and present talk about the All blacks legacy, they say its something very scary to them, losing an All Black test match is the most daunting thing for an All Black player, not the opposition of which there has been many of the highest calibre, but the legacy which is in their face throught the public, media and what they grew up with.
All Blacks have the depth to play wekaned teams against the likes of most NH teams, the pumas and what have u, but we need the best of the best when we face the Boks and wallabies and i really hope that dosent change in my lifetime.
needless to say i was very pi55ed of with the team we sent to PE last year, but the overrated RWC preperations played a huge role in that.

ur right, crudens no carter, but he has the potnetial to gow into that role and bring his own unique style, hes rated a better attacking flyhalf then carter, but carters all round skills has him quite easily the best flyhalf to grace to game. what im hoping we dont do with cruden is compare him to carter, cos he will fall short everytime, but if we judge him on his own merits, plus invest gametime into him like we have carter, then he will blossom like the superstar we all know he is.
the question is how will hansen manage carter and crudens playing time together. IMO they should play carter for the big matches which is the tests against the Boks and wallabies and split the load of the other tests 50/50 between the two.
beauden barret is a very capable player, but the game time he was going to get was always going to be limited, especially as the countries 3rd choice 10, if cruden will only get gametime when an injury to carter arises, when is he going to get his??? lolz,,,but his time will come, but for now its the carter/cruden show with cameo apperances from barret every now and then.

 

All Blacks have done something similar work with the forwards as they have with their backs, except in the hookers role which is and has been my only cause for concern.
i mean our 3 choice locks are romano 26, whitelock 23 and retallick 21, a very young lineup there and all are getting more and more test caps.
our props have owen franks who is now a veteran of the All Blacks cause, but still only 24 and charlie faumuina is coming through the ranks and hes 25.
our lose forwards have same cane 20, victo vito 24 and kerean read at 26, a very young age group with an average age of 23, and that dosent even touch the youngsters in the ITM.

its true our u20 team were beaten by the jrBoks, but that age group dosent define the All Blacks future, for all we know none of them might ever be good enough, but i do have huge high hope for the No8 jordan tafua who has been playing for tasman on loan from canterbury, IMO hes going to be a star, our captain bryn hall has also been playing well, but like i said, im very comfortable and confident with the steps we have taken, but as long as the older players continue to preform and hansen gives the others more chances, we will be all good IMO.
 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Oct 2012, 13:25
#17
01 Oct 2012, 13:25#17

What you said is really removing some of my doubts - maybe Hansen wants to follow the example of Meyer and phase in players gradually.   Don't get me wrong - I think the All Blacks will always be a strong team - and I really do not want to see them going down - but the layyer issue was the main reason for my comments on the age issue.

In the meantime keep the Heinekens at hand for Saturday - it really is a good thing for drowning of sorrows.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Oct 2012, 13:25
#18
01 Oct 2012, 13:25#18

What you said is really removing some of my doubts - maybe Hansen wants to follow the example of Meyer and phase in players gradually.   Don't get me wrong - I think the All Blacks will always be a strong team - and I really do not want to see them going down - but the layyer issue was the main reason for my comments on the age issue.

In the meantime keep the Heinekens at hand for Saturday - it really is a good thing for drowning of sorrows.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Oct 2012, 13:25
#19
01 Oct 2012, 13:25#19

What you said is really removing some of my doubts - maybe Hansen wants to follow the example of Meyer and phase in players gradually.   Don't get me wrong - I think the All Blacks will always be a strong team - and I really do not want to see them going down - but the layyer issue was the main reason for my comments on the age issue.

In the meantime keep the Heinekens at hand for Saturday - it really is a good thing for drowning of sorrows.

 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
01 Oct 2012, 15:47
#20
01 Oct 2012, 15:47#20

 

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