Boks' centre crisis

I have always been of the view that great players, like Jean, are only replaced when they slip....not in anticipation of that slip. And last year Jean was our best centre, by a proverbial mile. Fury, not a favorite of mine came back, slower and older....but still craftier and more effective than the youngsters.

By contrast the crown princes, JJ and Serfontein seemed to be headed backwards by season close....confirmed by Sadi and  Ebersohn blowing them out of the water in the CC. JJ has a serious defensive problem and Serfontein's inside step is reminiscent of other Bool 12s and no longer a surprise.

The fact is Jean and Fury are in the twilight of their careers. The new guys are unconvincing and Fransie is struggling with injuries and weight. He may yet be the best bet, but the inability to stay healthy is concerning.

Maybe somebody else like Esterhuizen will emerge....but for now it's a looming crisis.

 Mozart

The mere fact that you think that =

"Fury, not a favorite of mine came back, slower and older....but still craftier and more effective than the youngsters."

There are two issues here - namely -

*   the fact that on attack Fiyrie was as dead as a doornail; and

*   the fact that you apparently base your craftiness statement on one incident where from an off-side position he managed to gather the ball and flip pass it to Fourie du Preez,

That could even have been turned around into a severe embarrassment for the Springboks had the referee checked what really happened - so the mere fact that it did not happen saved Fourie's bacon and could even have cost the Springboks the match.   A penalty from where the off-0side position in fact occurred would have been in Halkpenny's range.

It is dangerous to base a statement like you made in this case on an illegality that was over-looked by the referee - and then said it showed craftiness.   It actually showed a dangerous degree of rank stupidity - which could have been disastrous for the Springboks.

Sure - give credit to Fourie for the sound defence after his initial two slip-ups when Davies ran past him twice  - but in attack he was more a liability than an asset.   

I am afraid we have a long way to go to find another center as a partner to Jean - Fourie is definitely not even remotely an answer to that problem.  

Wow Moz, I don’t know where to start……..probably with the facts for a start……..how on earth do you conclude that Ebersohn and Sadie blew Serfontein and JJ out of the water? That is bordering on the ridiculous and is simply a load of utter nonsense. Name a single moment in the game when Sadie beat JJ, one single moment.

If JJ has defeinsive issues then Jean’s defensive issues are even worse given JJ’s defensive stats were better than Jean’s against Oz and NZ in four tests…….so again this is plain nonsense.

But the icing on the cake is Fourie being more effective than the youngsters??????? Would that be the 13 m he gained in all the tests he played on the EOYT, where he never beat a single defender or made a clean break……..wow Moz, you really do have low standards……….compare those stats to JJ’s last test against NZ and according to you JJ was going backwards.

My guess is that Meyer used the EOYT tour to see what Fourie had to offer and has clearly reached the same conclusion everyone else has given JJ has been offered a central Bok contract…….hardly the sign that Meyer thinks he is going backwards.

Judging Serfontein is laughable given he has played very little rugby at 12 for the Boks. I have said this a few times and will say it again……Serfontein is better than Jean was at the same age and will prove to be a better centre in the end as he has far more clout about him. As for only using an inside step – rubbish, he showed an outside step in his first game for the Bulls at S15 level last year…..so again this is complete nonsense.

Our depth at centre is better than it has ever been. Jean was the best 12 the Boks have had since readmission…….I suspect Frans had he been given more game time there might have and may still prove even better than Jean. So we have Jean hanging in there, with Serfontein and Frans in the equation. Personally I would select Serfontein and Frans over Jean anyday.

JJ is the best 13 prospect we have had since readmission…….we have never had a 13 with his explosive pace and feet. The notion that he has a defensive issue is disproved by the stats. His overall defensive ability is clouded by two misses that were never his primary responsibilities and that is a fact.

On Saturday, the Sharks unearthed a real centre gem in Andre Esterhuizen who looks destined for great things, add that to the glimpses we saw of Tyler Fisher a 13, playing out of position at fullback for the Sharks.

Other 12’s who look the part include Heimar Williams, de Allende, Howard Mnisi, Tim Whitehead, Ebersohn, Rohan Janse v/Rensburg and Frans Venter………….at 13 we have the likes of Pat Howard, Stokkies Hanekom, Sadie, Dries Swanepoel, Piet Lindeque, de Jongh and Jordaan.

Don’t get me wrong, not all these players will make the grade but to say we have an issue at centre is so far from reality that it beggars belief……….we have centres to burn…..hell I’d love to be a coach with this list to draw on.

"47 The Bulls attack is lacking any deception or width and eventually Pretorious makes a steal! The Bulls then give away a penalty at the breakdown. Far too one dimensional from the Bulls..."

Teams with great centre partnerships don't lack deception and width. The fact is the Bools pair is totally predictable.

And then of course there was the classic case of Strauss gassing your man JJ

"77 TRY, CHEETAHS, STRAUSS, 22-7. Now THAT just summed up the Bulls night. Once again they knock on whilst on attack, Pretorious takes advantage and hacks down field several times before captain Strauss puts a kick through himself racing against JJ Engelbrecht. Strauss gets a lucky bounce and he goes over for a try!"

Hmmm Moz, not sure what any of that has to do with Ebershon and Sadie getting the better of Serfontein and JJ, for the simple reason that it never happened and would never ever happen given the gulf between the players.

Sadie could never beat JJ, he simply does not have the skill set. Ebersohn is handy player, but nothing near Serfontein.

As for Strauss gassing JJ, it had stuff all to do with gas  

Spot on Sas.......Jean is not our best centre.......had Serfontein featured at 12 all year, he would have proved even better than Jean who was good.

JJ was a revelation at 13, he confirmed that in that last game against your boys.

Sadly we have a typically conservative coach who would rather invest in a bunch of old plodders.

I am really excited about the prospect of 19 year old Sharks centre, Esterhuizen........he looks as good as Serfontein........has amazing strength for such a kid, but at 104kg is hardly a kid.......he is going to take some stopping. Seems to possess the Bismark power.......its been a while since I have seen a player repeatedly manhandle the opposition at this kid did to the Sarries players

 Saffex

In certain respects I am with you in this case.  For instance the fact that Engelbrecht got a Bok contract shows clearly the way the wind is blowing insofar as he is concerned.  He would not get the contract unless recommended by Meyer.   Incidentally I think Mozart is unhappy that De Jongh - who had a contract in the past fell off the bus - and rightfully so.

Now looking at the other comments made by you - I largely share your opinion - but have reservations about Steyn.   Let me put it clearly - I seriously believe that Steyn was not up to standard since his return from France.   One can only hope he performs substantially better in the upcoming Super 15 to stake a claim for selection.   To be quite frank - if he carries on like he did over the past 17 months - the further away he is from the Springbok team the better.   Insofar as he is concerned there is on reason for optimism and that is that White might succeed to get him back to form.   Steyn must get physically into better shape - it seems to me he has too many serious injuries and the question remains - is it the result of deficiency in the relevant regard.  

I always said that Andre Esterhuizen is special - I saw him playing in the Under 21 matches and was amazed he was not picked for the Sharks in the CC games.  He definitely is one for the future.   I hope he gets ample playing time in the upcoming Super 15.

As per usual your take on Frans is a load of rubbish, evidenced by the fact that he is one of the contracted Boks and Jake has stated he is a special player who will start at 12 for the Sharks in every game.

That is exactly how I would play it and it would be a case of working out who would be best to partner Frans at 13........the obvious choice is Esterhuizen, but I'd also give Tyler Fisher some game time at 13 off the bench.

Heimar Williams would be my back-up 12 and Swiel would be my back-up 10 to Lambie.

SP Marais needs to be at 15, with van Tonder as his back-up.

The wings should be JP, Jordaan and Mvovo

de Jongh is simply not physical enough for a test 13, he is not even close. He punches above his weight but there is no way around lacking bulk in traffic.

In space, de Jongh is handy.....he has a good step and makes good technically effective tackles in open play.

Test rugby is about playing in traffic where both skill and physicality are a must. Skill to beat the man in space, physicality to impose yourself in traffic both on attack and in defence.

Like Adi Jacobs, de Jongh should never have played a single test and the reason they have has nothing to do with rugby merit.

JJ is by far our best 13, with many better options than de Jongh behind him.

Saffex

You may think that Steyn was good enough - a lot of others looking at performances and his stats do not share your opinion in the relevant regard.  

Steyn was contracted by SARU after his s return from France for a three year period - he is not a new signee and the deal was done before his present performances were really known.   I would not lay too much stress on that one as a reason for his future selection.

Insofar as White is concerned - he said he wants to play Steyn at 12 - which was exactly what Plumtree said last year when he made him captain of the Sharks.   Steyn did not perform as expected and Plumtree was forced into a situation - largely by the local supporters - to get rid of him on the basis of under-performance due to unfitness.

Now he has a new coach who said he backs him for the no 12 jersey.   He does not really have anything other than reputation on which he based his decision.   If there is indeed a coach who can handle Steyn - it will be White.   However, there is another thing clear as daylight - White will not hesitate one minute to drop him if he still is not up to standard.

That is where the situation is at present.   Steyn better start to show he is worth the investment - otherwise it will be tickets,   I hope he does - because the Sharks can use him if he performs well.   If he does not, there are ample talent coming through to replace him.      

Saffex

No - I was not the lone ranger as you call it - maybe there were some shouts on this site - but the media was not very kind to the Sharks after there poor performance against the Kings and less so after the Brumbies disaster.    So Plumtree was forced into a corner.

Alberts is a player I always watch with interest.   He tries one ball carry per game and is then lauded for it.   For the rest he makes a few tackles and missed more.  The hype is massive.   The mighty ball carrier, the top tackler - yet he plays for five to 10 mintes in the game and for the rest does nothing.  Yet the hype is overwhelming.

Take for instance Saturdays game - his name was never mentioned for 32 minutes - no mention of tackles made - no ball carries.   Obviously the commentator missed out the missed tackle about 7 minutes after the start of the game.

Then he got the ball after on a maul situation and tried to carry it - first mention of his name ever.  He was tackled immediately and did not gain an inch of territory.   That was followed about three minutes later by another similar incident.

Still no mention of any tackles made by Alberts after halftime.   At about minute 45 he made the only ball carry of any value when he bumped off Brits and made about 3 meters progress before he was tackled by the next tackler.   Shortly thereafter he was subbed and the back row started to function better. 

Yet you came up with a rating of 7/10  based on strong carries and tackling - the latter  of which there were none.   If you can watch the game and find the tackles I will eat my hat - rather I will go and buy one since I do not own one and eat it.

It really is amazing how this guy can carry the ball once during a game and has the write up indicating  that he won the game for the team he played for.    The fact that he does very little only comes out with failed tackles like the one on Read at Ellis Park - and even then it is covered up.  

This guy must have the strongest PR system in Rugby,  He does very little and gets  unbelievable write - ups.

At last we are blessed with a strong center group of players to be chosen on merit to represent the Boks.

Saffex your lengthy comment on this issue is spot on.

With the depth and quality of the younger players rising to play at the highest level it will stand Springbok rugby at the top.

Lets just hope all selections are determined on merit without political meddling.

A question I have though is:

Should SARU not expand the Currie Cup competition to perhaps eight teams to allow these younger players to get involved and play at the highest level thus gaining the experience and exposure to dispaly their talents?

If we don't allow these guys to develope and sign contracts  locally they will be scoped up by overseas clubs and forever lost to SA rugby.

Overseas they will earn much more in terms of Rands so the draw will always be there if we don't accomodate them.

Yes the CC should be extended to include 8 sides and the surplus players from the major unions should be loaned out to the minor unions for the duration of the CC

That way all the best players will be afforded the opportunity to compete and impress  

 Arthur John

There was supposed to be a meeting of SARU this week to change the CC set-up, but it was postponed because it was found that they did not have the votes to make the recommended change.

The SARU management was asked to come up with a new proposal that could be considered on 13 February 2014.   Seems to me the expansion will not really work and there is also some stresses and strains because they are trying to get a team of Argentina involved in the CC as well.  

Be it as it may - I think any changes this year is unlikely.

 Mozart

De Jongh is probably the twentieth best center in South Africa - but likely also the worst defending center of the 20.  What the Stormers/WP wants with that one is indeed a mystery and probably part of the reason why they did not succeed last year,  Bad news - that one.    

 I dont know what the "infatuation" with playing in heavy traffic is that Saffex has. The ball should not go as far as the outside centre if its not on. We have guys like Beast, Jannie, Bismarck, Flip, Etzebeth, Alberts, Louw, Vermuelen, JP and Jean who can all take it up in traffic. We dont need our 13 being robust. Do you see Conrad Smith or Ben Smith being used as battering rams?

 Mozart, out of everything said between myself and Dave, I really dont hate the oke..I dont even know him but I just can not understand how he rates a guy like JJ over Jean. How can he think that Serfontein is better than Jean??

BL in my view some centres can be predictable, but still very effective. Take Jamie Roberts....you know he is going to crash through the first line of defence....but you can't stop him. Likewise Jean, Sterling Mortlock etc. Then there are the great runners of whom Fofana may be the best right now....guys who are almost never put away in space. Finally you have the creative guys, who have a feel for how the play is going to evolve and arrive at the right spot usually at pace Conrad Smith falls into that category.

All these types have an ability to breach tight defences. JJ and Serfontein couldn't breach the Cheetahs...they aren't creative, don't have a dominating go to move like Roberts and frankly aren't hard to put away....even in space.

There has been huge hype about these two, satisfaction that the future Bok partnership is discovered....but where's the beef? Dave cites one play over and over again....JJ beating Savea at Ellis Park. He did, but with a dummy, not by beating a tackle. As for the strength thing, he doesn't play strong, gets shaken off in the tackle and easily lowered by the first defender.

If we put Serfontein and JJ out there in the RC we will get our heads handed to us.

What we saw with Fury on the YE tour has been completely missed by guys like Oom Maaik. Sure he is not explosive (he never was). But he brings up the defence, so the outside is sealed off. Apart from two early breaks against Wales we completely neutralized the NH backlines.

 Thats exactly my thought. All the guys you have listed above bring something to the game and add something to their team that is unique. Unique in the sense that no one else in their countries does it queit like them.

 The argument started about Fourie - with Mozart implying that Fourie is the one to follow.   Let me quote:-

  "Fury, not a favorite of mine came back, slower and older....but still craftier and more effective than the youngsters."

Mozart based his whole argument around one instance - namely where from an off0sude position Fourie managed to get hold of a ball and flip pass it to Du Preez.   If the ref asked for a video review - the Springboks could have lost the test - since a penalty would gave been given in the range that Halfpenny could have converted.   It is extremely dangerous to base an argument around one incident in one match as s reason for selection.   The same happened in the case of the CC final in 2012 - when De Jongh scored a try made for him by Catrakillis - only his third try in two years in Super 15 and CC.  We know what happened - De Jongh ended up in the 13 position in the Springbok team where he did squat against the Scots and pated the most amazing vanishing trick I have ever seen from any Springbok at Twickenham.  That - and an extremely poor defensive record in Super 15 took him out of Springbok contention for the future.

Now back to Fourie - after he was comprehensively beaten twice by Davies in the Welsh test - he managed to make all his tackles - lucky for him Davies was injured and replaced early.   Fourie was slow and totally ineffective on attack showing no skill - I would call that off-side play deception rather than skill.   The other two tests were the same - solid defence - no skill and no attacking ability.  

FOURIE IS NOT THE ANSWER AND THOSE WHO THINK HE IS  ON THE SAME  TRAIL AS WAS THE CASE WITH DE JONGH, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHETHER IT IS SH OR NH CONDITIONS.   GE IS AR AB AGE WHERE HE WILL NOT IMPROVE HIS PERFORMANCES - IT IS BOUND TO DETERIORATE.

The question remains what now?   Meyer seems to think JJ is the answer - hence his signing up on a Springbok contract.   But is he?   I have seen elements of JJ's play that is very ordinary and in some cases unacceptable.   Saffex do not count defence as of any importance in backline play as long as  the player has "the step" irrespective of him ever using it.   He is not alone in that - Mozart and others also ignore serious defence deficiencies in their favoured players and write it off as inconsequential.

I think there can be no dispute about Jean's position at 12 - unless there are serious signs of life in performances by Steyn - the back up will have to come from Serfontein.   The latter was on the bench for the Springboks - but got virtually no playing time.  So lets look at Serfontein in Super 15 last year.   I must admit that in some games he was ineffective and the reason may be that the Bulls coach desperately tried to change Serfontein from being a creative player into the bash and smash player accepted by some as standard requirement for an inside center. 

Lets hope that we see the real Serfontein this year - but that could also be a forlorn hope since it is understood that Mattfield is trying to make a comeback and we all know that he is constantly moonlighting in the backline - ruining backline play.  Lets hope that nightmare can be avoided.

I think the answer may ultimately come from the younger Sharks players like Andre Esterhuizen or Heimar Williams.    White will give these youngsters the sound grounding they need,   I saw Esterhuizen playing in a number of  CC Under 21 matches and believe that he is even a better player than Serfontein was as a Under  21.  Saffex will have a fit about that one - but this guy really is top class and a likely replacement for Jean.   Matter of fact he reminds me of Jean when he first came on the scene,

The nightmare remains on the outside center position.  There is JJ - but I am not convinced he is the final answer.   There are a number of younger players that may come through this year in Super 15  who can change the scenario drastically.  I am not going to stake money on JJ at all and would rather see what happens on Super 15 level.  What I do know is that some  of the present 13's - like De Jongh - is no prospect at all.                              

 Moz, sorry but you are speaking nonsense........JJ had his best test in his last one against the AB's, so saying he went awol is complete bullshit.

You want our centres to beat their man on the outside, JJ does that against Savea perfectly and according to you it was a simple show - well if that is the case then no matter what JJ does, he will never measure up in your eyes and that has absolutely nothing to do with rugby.

Implying that Fourie was better is at best insulting to a rugby follower and makes no sense at all given how anti you have been over the years when it comes to Fourie.

The reality of all this is that the whole take on JJ has nothing to do with rugby.....evidenced by the fact that you saw so little in his performance against NZ, when ever Kiwi on this site acknowledged just how good he was in that game and further evidenced by the positives extracted from the pathetic performance of Fourie on the EOYT

None of this adds up and smacks of anything but rugby

 Mozart

I read what you said about Fourie and the fact that I did not grasp his importance as a defender.   That is crap - you know.   I said Fourie made his tackles, but fot the two examples I quoted . but is that the only role of a 13?   Surely not - he must show some ability in attack as well and that was never in evidence.

 Sun Tzu

Just two questions.

First question - with a missed tackle ratio of 28% - the worst figure in SA Rugby in Super 15 last year - can De Jongh tackle?   He has the reputation - but definitely not present capacity.  

Second question - "De Jongh has better hands and better vision" - he came into test rugby in 2012 and the first ball passed to him in the Scottish test he knocked on.   Did you see the stats for that test and the Twickenham one?   Sure he has vision - and that is how to become invisible in tests - he did less than a player on the field for five minutes would have done in the Twickenham test.

Should never have played test rugby and should not make the Stormers side in Super 15.   Average Vodacom Cup player at best - not fit for CC or Super 15.     

Sun, you are wasting your time trying to convince Sas that JJ offers nothing and that de Jongh is the answer. Like Sas, I scratch my head at your ignorance or poor vision.

What makes this more laughable is your positive take on Kirchner and how carthorse Fourie would have had a field day.

You get some players right, like Frans Steyn, but you are hopelessly wrong when it comes to JJ and de Jongh

Now why would HM drop JJ (this sounds like alphabet soup) after the Ellis park test. What information is embedded in that decision? 

Well, there could have been little personal motivation to make the change. JJ at outside centre for the Boks was an HM initiative, Fury is just a hand me down. A succesful JJ reflects far more positively on HM. But winning reflects even more positively....so we can assume he made the change because results were more important to him than mentoring.

So Dave you can bang on about what a great game JJ had at Ellis Park. The fact is he made 4 crucial mistakes which led to a negative swing of 28 points. As a result of which, HM decided he was going to be a liability up north.

also, there is a lot of running down of de Jongh....but he is a devastating runner in space and a superb tackler, and as Sun says, a genuine centre who understands the position. He outplayed JJ head to head in the S15....he would be a better choice.

Mozart

How devastating a defender is who missed 28% of all attempted tackles.   How can you explain that one away - certainly not by a sweeping statement like "and a superb tackler.  A superb tackler would not miss a third of the De Jongh misses.   Please explain how you get that kind of anomaly?

Then you talk about "a devastating runner in space"   - a player who in 2011 and 2012 managed to score 3 tries in nearly 40 matches played.   How devastating is that?   And the vanishing trick he played at the tests at the end of 2012 - is that devastating as well?   

You get that kind of anomaly because de Jongh goes for a lot of low percentage tackles behind the advantage line when playing for the Stormers. Playing for the Boks he has a very high tackle success ratio. But more than that,  anybody who has played rugby (I notice you never claimed any position in our poll) would see de Jongh has excellent tackling technique.

As for being a devastating runner, you as a Sharks supporter should remember that.

Well Moz, given Meyer has just awarded JJ with a central contract, I doubt he sees JJ in the same light you do.

Who knows what Meyer was doing with Fourie on the EOYT. My guess is that he wanted to see if he still had it, which he clearly does not.

As for the Ellis Park test, he only made one mistake in missing Barrett, a mistake shared by Jean and Morne.........the other mistakes simply did not happen and to blame JJ for a 28 point swing is a complete joke.

de Jongh is nowhere near as good a JJ at centre, the little guy is a liability in contact, he can only operate in space, there is very little space in the test arena.

de Jongh did not outplay JJ in the S15 unless you count the de Jongh step that got him nowhere.