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FORUM / RUGBY /  Boks hunt for back up fetcher

Boks hunt for back up fetcher

Started by Beeno138 REPLIES585 VIEWS· 12 Jun 2013, 18:31
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Jun 2013, 18:31
#1
12 Jun 2013, 18:31#1

 

  Marcell Coetzee (Gallo Images) Ex Sport 24

Nelspruit - Francois Louw's absence from the Springbok team against Scotland has given the team an ideal opportunity to look at alternatives.

Louw was released from the national squad in preparation for his wedding day and will not be considered for Saturday’s Test against Scotland in Nelspruit. Kick-off is at 17:15.

Speaking to the SA Rugby magazine website, coach Heyneke Meyer said he was eager to take a look at other players who could play the role of 'fetcher'.

Marcell Coetzee, one of five changes to the Springbok team to face Scotland, is set to start at openside flank this Saturday, with Siya Kolisi providing cover from the bench.

Neither Coetzee, nor Kolisi are regarded as being in the classic fetcher mould, but Meyer hinted that they may have to add that string to their bows if they want to be considered for selection.

"If you look at who officiates in our Tests, it's northern hemisphere referees. So you really need somebody in that role who can slow the opposition's ball down," Heyneke said.

"I want to build a big squad of 35 players and have alternatives in every position. This opportunity is important for guys like Marcell and Siya.

"They have to show me that they can specialise in that role. If not, I will have to consider other options. Even a guy like a Heinrich Brüssow will come into contention."

Kolisi
, who could earn his first Springbok cap this weekend if he is called off the bench against Scotland, said Meyer had placed special emphasis on the breakdown in the past couple of weeks, and said he had learnt a lot from Louw.

"It's been great to work with Francois Louw these past two weeks," said Kolisi.

"He has given me and Marcell plenty of advice on how to approach the breakdown."

"It's a massive benefit for me, as I don't play that way (as a fetcher) at the Stormers (What are those dopey coches teaching these guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Francois has given me some advice on when to go for the ball and when to leave it alone. When it's 50/50, he's told me to rather back off. (Doesnt sound like rocket science either!)

"It's really exciting to have this opportunity, but I'm well aware of the pressure to get it right. I have to be disciplined at the breakdown. Yes, I want to do well for this team, but I must ensure that I don't get too excited and give away penalties."

Meyer if you need some advice give me a call, I can tell you exactly who you need. You seem to be missing the obvious! 

 

 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 18:37
#2
12 Jun 2013, 18:37#2

Waaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

 

"Meyer if you need some advice give me a call, I can tell you exactly who you need. You seem to be missing the obvious!" 

Baboon-ou still banging on about the small, not-very-fast, not-very-strong provincial utility player (who's been at hooker all season) being suddenly elvated to Springbok loose forward!

 

Hilarious!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Jun 2013, 18:48
#3
12 Jun 2013, 18:48#3

rooitwit ya hopeless dope at least my pick would make sense - your picking your son amongst all those players. Hhahahahahaa what sentimentality is that - what lack of any proportion. Sheer nonsense.

Remember rooitwit Deon Fourie was Currie Cup player of the year playing at 6. Yet Kolisi who is no fetcher - ditto Coetzee - get called up before him.  Now tell me who is not making sense here.

Meyer needs expert advice and who better to call than the highly esteemed Beeno. If you want in on the act I can always recomend a comedian - an unintentional one. Bwahahahaahahahahhahahaha

 

DD
dan danRookie46 posts
12 Jun 2013, 19:42
#4
12 Jun 2013, 19:42#4

Heinrich Brussow is the man we need and he is a true fetcher!

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 21:11
#5
12 Jun 2013, 21:11#5

Pfffffffhahahahahahahaha!

 

The word "favourite" would appear to be too much of a hurdle for Baboon-ou's drool-powered brain.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 21:45
#6
12 Jun 2013, 21:45#6

dan-dan, I think it has to be a personal thing between Heyneke Meyer and Heinrich Brussow. Brussow is too good a player to be left out of any national squad. People forget how he almost single-handedly won us the series against the British Lions in 2009.

 

I like Marcell Coetzee and I actually  prefer him to the rather ordinary plodder Francois Louw, but I don't believe either one should be in the team ahead of Heinrich Brussow.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Jun 2013, 22:59
#7
12 Jun 2013, 22:59#7

Brussow's fetching skills are a myth. He is nowhere near the magocal fetcher he is supposed to be. Go check his turnover stats and be prepared for a surprise.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:06
#8
12 Jun 2013, 23:06#8
I have no problem with Louw - he really is a top loosie. However, I do not think Meyer really knows what he is looking for - Coetzee (who had a very average to poor season in 2013 in Super 15 and was really not of any good when he came on on Saturday) and Kolisi (also a relatively poor season in 2013 with knock on of balls , missed tackles and too many penalties given away) are no fetchers and really do not bring enough to the game to be considered. However, Meyer is consistent in one thing - he is not about to change his mind about players. If he likes them he Is going to keep them in the team - even if their performances are piss-poor. The players he sticks with now were all in the EOYT squad - anybody else is not to be considered in the absence of a host of injuries to his favoured players. He himself said he made selection errors last year - but he apparently has learnt nothing from those errors - so we are back to a coach that pick people and then refuse to recognise their deficiencies until it is too late. He still stick with poor performing players in key positions. The best fetcher other than Louw is Brussow - but I have also have reservations about him. He has some problems as to penalties - lets at least e honest about that - he is smallish in built and has some defensive deficiencies as a result (all of thee can be statistically proven), but he is a better loosie than either Cotzee or Kolisi. Brussow's deficiencies has in Super 15 this year largely been nullified by his co-loosies - Labuchagnne and Philip van der Walt. However, that would not be the case with Spies and Alberts in the team. Spies is useless - Alberts too slow to be in time at breakdowns. Botha would be a good loosie combination with Brussow - but then he has to play at 8. Meyer will never consider the need for that type of thing and even if he brings in Brussow he is not going to function as well as he should - because of he deficiencies of the preferred other loosies of Meyer. The fact that Louw did well last year has much to do with the Vermeulen - Louw combination at 6 and 8 - but was hampered by Alberts at 7. If Alberts were indeed up to standard - the combination would really have ben better and produce really positive results. On Saturday the combination did not work as well as it should despite the presence of Botha and 7. The real problem remains Spies at 8 - a really poor choice by Meyer. If you really want to see positive results by the loosies - bring in Botha at 8 and Labuschagne at 7 and add Brussow to the mix. Forget about the under-achievers who have been disappointing over the past year especially.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:09
#9
12 Jun 2013, 23:09#9

Ceradyne, without any research or checking out stats and based purely one what I've seen with my own eyes, I'm quite certain Heinrich Brussow's turnover stats are among the best of any fetcher in the business, but my advice to you, listen to what British Lions supporters had to say about Brussow's influence on the outcome of the 2009 British Lions tour . . . and be prepared for a surprise!

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:27
#10
12 Jun 2013, 23:27#10
I don't care about what has happened in 2009. The interpretation of the laws has changed in 2010. Just to make sure of my gut feeling, I checked the stats before I made the comment. Are you ready for the surprise? He has managed 4 turnovers in the game against the game against the Waratahs. As far the rest? Zip............. zero................. niks................... fokol.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:31
#11
12 Jun 2013, 23:31#11
Roinek Ceradyne looks at limited impact only - namely turnovers in possession - not legitimate slowing down of opposition recovery of balls. He also loose sight of the combination impact I referred to previously. Looking at the stats for Super 15 - the combination of Brussow, Van der Walt and Labuschagne made 25 turnovers of opposition balls - giving away 11 penalties in the process. All the Bulls combination at loosie made 18 turnovers giving away 25 penalties in the process. The Bulls combination used includes Spies, Stegmann, Potgieter and Botha. In essence the 25 turnovers in fact represents 12 games played - in other words 2 turnovers per game - which is better than any other SA franchise could produce.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:36
#12
12 Jun 2013, 23:36#12
Ceradyne Tripe - I looked at the foxsport and test rugby stats and in total Brussow made 11 turnovers in possession out of a total of 25 by the Cheetahs loosie combination.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:38
#13
12 Jun 2013, 23:38#13

Well what do you know? On another thread Mozart and myself get our asses kicked for selective use of stats and now the stats gets used selectively when they do not suit the argument. The stats for the Van der Walt/Labuschagne/Brussow compared to the Bulls loose forward combo has bugger all bearing on the Bok team. The argument is that HM is a poepol for not selecting Brussow and that Brussow has to be in the Bok team for HIS superior fetching skills.

 

 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:40
#14
12 Jun 2013, 23:40#14

Ou Maaik, indeed, Ceradyne's stats sound suspiciously like "relevant" stats.

 

Brussow should be one of the first names on the starting teamsheet.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:43
#15
12 Jun 2013, 23:43#15

Those stats come from the same source that ou Maaik use for his arguments, do check the for yourself. Or even better.... why don't you give us the correct stats then and provide us with your source as well. Mine is ESPNScrum.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
12 Jun 2013, 23:55
#16
12 Jun 2013, 23:55#16

Ceradyne, perhaps I haven't made myself clear so I'll spell it out for you . . . I don't set much store by stats when it comes to rugby which is why I said I rely more on what I see with my own eyes and also why I was so scathing of the use of stats, particularly by manipulative serial-liars like Moffie.

 

Now, if you want to try and prove me wrong by quoting more stats . . . a bit like Baboon-ou trying to prove his amazingly stupid anti-evolution theories by quoting something as outdated as the bible . . . then knock yourself out, but don't expect me to give your stats any credibility.

 

As an example, a simple "tackle" statistic in rugby doesn't take into consideration the difficulty of the tackle, the speed or power of the ball-carrier or the context of the match. For you stats slaves, six arm-flapping "tackles" by an ineffective plodder like Marius Joubert are worth six times as much as a series-defining tackle by Joggie Jansen.

 

Look, statistics have their place but if you're going to try and win an argument with me by saying ridiculous out-of-context stuff like "count Heinrich Brussow's turnovers" - as if that's the only function of an openside flanker - then rather stick to discussing rugby with the likes of Moffie and Baboon-ou. Okay?

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:12
#17
13 Jun 2013, 00:12#17

Isn't his "magnificent" trunover abilities exactlyu what is supposed to destinguish him from the rest?

 

After all. You are the one who said: "Ceradyne, without any research or checking out stats and based purely one what I've seen with my own eyes, I'm quite certain Heinrich Brussow's turnover stats are among the best of any fetcher in the business........................." 

Now that I have given you the results of my research and stats, and it has come out that his turnpver stats are indeed among the worst, you suddenly don't like the stats? Unbelieveable............

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:17
#18
13 Jun 2013, 00:17#18

Sensodyne, if all you've got in your littler pea-shooter are some irrelevant stats about the number of turnovers won by Heinrich Brussow then tell Moffie and Baboon-ou about it. They might find it interesting but I really don't care about your stupid stats.

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:17
#19
13 Jun 2013, 00:17#19
Ceradyne I gave you the sources which I have consulted. You are talking absolute crap about the issue - combination of loosies working together is a fact of life and if that combination is excluded it shows a serious deficiency in intelligent rugby interpretation. Two of the Bulls loosies involved are in the present Springbok team and two were (like Brussow) previous Springboks - so what is wrong in comparing the two set of loosies to see which is the better indication on the turnover issue. I also look at ESPN stats - but when they differ markedly - like in this case I also look at other stat sources to find a medium type of situation. Both the Foxsport and Test Rugby sites have similarities - differing markedly from the ESPN SCRUM stats and in view of the similarities - I used the latter sources in this case.. .
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:22
#20
13 Jun 2013, 00:22#20

Ahhh that proves it. "Your stats don't match my opinion, so I'll discard them and use the one that matches my opinion.."

 

I have cross referenced it with this site www.rugbystats.com.au/rugby/ and they corrolate. In fact they have his stats even worse. They have his number of turnovers in the game against the Waratahs at 3.

 

Could I have the links to your other sources?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:29
#21
13 Jun 2013, 00:29#21

Spot on Rooi, Brussouw is our best openside, closely followed by Kolisi. Kolisi plays a different game, but is pretty effective at what he does. Louw is a handy player, but openside flanker he is not, much like Schalk was never a 6.

 

Its a little insulting to us all that Meyer has snubbed Brussouw as he has. It has to be something personal.

 

As for Fourie as a fetcher at any level other than S15, well only Beenkop could make that stupid call. Its about as informative as his take on Matfield, one of the best locks to ever play the game.

 

Taking Beenkop seriously after his take on Matfield years ago, is just plain impossible

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:36
#22
13 Jun 2013, 00:36#22
Saffex What is Kolisi "handy" in? Low and rather ineffective tackle count? Small success in carrying of balls? Knocking on of balls? Giving away of penalties? He has done all the above and there is clear evidence of that in the Super 15 games he played in. Handy yes - but definitely not an international level candidate.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:37
#23
13 Jun 2013, 00:37#23

Brussows claim to fame, in 2009, was the way that he beat McCaw and managed to steal balls in the rucks. He has not been able to do that for the last two years. All over we have been hearing that we need him as our fetcher. Well he has not been doin much "fetching" lately. Where is all the balls he has been "fetching" show me the stats and I might even change my mind. Don't come with this "what I saw with my eyes BS". I don't want your warped eyesight. I want hard and fast facts.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:48
#24
13 Jun 2013, 00:48#24
Look DomMike I know you are as thick as pigshit, but Kolisi is that guy currently in the Bok squad. Need I say anymore?
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2013, 00:53
#25
13 Jun 2013, 00:53#25

OK  Mike, which stats are we working on this time?

NT
ntangaClub Pro336 posts
13 Jun 2013, 01:05
#26
13 Jun 2013, 01:05#26
Meyer should look no further, Brussow is available, and he is a tested and proven Fetcher SA have at the moment. But Meyer is just too stubborn to admit that fact.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jun 2013, 01:11
#27
13 Jun 2013, 01:11#27

Brussow does not even feature on the top 20 Tuirnover list for the 2013 S15. The only South Africans are Strauss at no 3, Deon Fourie at no 4, Rhuke at no 6 and Bandise Maku at joint 15th.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Jun 2013, 02:34
#28
13 Jun 2013, 02:34#28
You mention Brussouw's great play againt the Lions RooiAAAS? Just a pity then that you chose the Lions to thrash the Boks...hey? Nobody gets it more wrong. The fact is Brussouw was a great player and had a great Lions series and 09 TN. But he has never been as effective since. In RWC 11 he was outplayed by Pocock before leaving hurt and also outplayed by Warburton in the Welsh match. He has been hampered by many injuries, and against the more physical packs like the Bools, he struggles these days. Louw is a fine player and almost single handedly improved our breakdown last year. So while Heinrich still shows glimpses of his former greatness, Louw is the better solution going forward. To suggest a Bok coach is not going to choose a player who he thinks will help him win, because of personal issues, isn't credible. Kolisi and Coetzee are probably never going to be competitive against top international talent.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jun 2013, 02:35
#29
13 Jun 2013, 02:35#29
Saffex So Meyer has suddenly been elevated to your favoured coach? He has made some really poor selections and Kolisi is one of those. I hope he doe get an opportunity to play on Saturday just to prove that he is not international material - he is bound to fail, just like Janttjies did in the Soweto test.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jun 2013, 02:45
#30
13 Jun 2013, 02:45#30

No Meyer gets some selections right, his best are JJ and Willie, but just as good is Kolisi this weekend on the bench. Kolisi is a class act who will play many tests for the Boks.

 

My selections are always right. I said as much about JJ, Etzebeth, Botha and Steph du Toit - Kolisi will be another.

 

Meyer just needs to listen to all my selections and we will be well onto our winning ways. He now just needs to move on from Basson, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Juandre Kruger, Alberts, Louw and Spies and all will be well

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jun 2013, 03:19
#31
13 Jun 2013, 03:19#31
Saffex Since you seem to think your selections are always right - what - * happened to your mantra that Goosen must be the flyhalf, Lambie must be the full back amd Taute must be the no 13; and * Jantjies is a real candidate for Springbok selection? Has Le Roux now replaced Lambie in that mantra and JJ Engelbrecht Taute. And I hope Goosen is available soon - he will make that backline operate properly - provided the crashballing Francois Steyn is not in the backline. Ponder over that one before you answer please.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,298 posts
13 Jun 2013, 03:21
#32
13 Jun 2013, 03:21#32

Etzebeth, Botha and Steph du Toit were all 1st choice players in the Under20 bok team- it wasnt as if they were found on an isolated farm playing rugby with a coconut last weekend.

-

The stars of the under20 bok team will usually go on to be stars of the Senior team. It is not rocket science. (especially in good years- think of Fourie Dupreez, Schalk, Jean etc etc when they won the Junior world cup)

-

The same with Serfontein who won world player of the year at under21 level and everyone was expecting him to become a senior bok even before the start of the SuperXV. 

 -

Botha is good but the depth of loose forwards produced by South Africa, he could easily find himself getting knocked out of the team by a new player next year or the year after. Look at Cotzee- last year most stats supported him as the best loosie in the SuperXV. He made a strong impact in tests, now on current form and new players coming through he is very lucky to be on the bench.

-

Willie has become everyones choice during this years SuperXV. (first choice- not one in a whole list of players). If Meyer drops him for Kirchner, or selected Kirchner ahead of him it would have been public outcry

 

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
13 Jun 2013, 04:03
#33
13 Jun 2013, 04:03#33

@Saffex what you mean "Burger was never a 6"? Please explain that statement please 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jun 2013, 10:58
#34
13 Jun 2013, 10:58#34

Windpomp you are starring on this thread!

So we have Deon at four and Brussouw nowhere in sight. We have Kolisi who can't fetch and ditto Coetzee but I am mad to think of Deon. Deon is faster than any of them and carries the ball up. He is very physical and in the game for 80 minutes.

Burger was IRB player of the year playing 6 but cant play 6 opines snapster. Meyer actually had him earmaked for Bok captain!!!  Hahahahahahahahaha

Kolisi is a quota selection and should not even make the Stormers as Deon Fourie should be at 6. Like Rhule he is vastly overrated at this point in time. Meyer saw the obvious with Rhule and dropped him. 

Louw has been superb for the Boks and yet ou snapster wants Kolisi ahead of him.  Louw is trying to show Kolisi the basics in fetching.  Bwahahahhahahahahaha that is really very funny!!!

Snapster are you cracking up or what. As for matfield you explain how a 106 kg stringbean could ever make an effective lock- you were conned big time! You do know the difference between a backline wannabee and an international lock?

Coetzee is a very limited player and not in the class of Labbers who is a very skilled and mutli dimensional  player and superb linking forward and lineout man. Coetzee has to develop his skills rapidly or else his international career could end.  Maybe Dr Venter will rescue him.

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
13 Jun 2013, 11:15
#35
13 Jun 2013, 11:15#35
I am with Saff and Rooi here, Brussouw is the answer, should have been there from the start. I think there is a personality issue between him and Meyer. Brussouw works very hard, has a high tackle count and even if he does not turn over a ball on the ground, his efforts will often lead to the ball being slowed down, still advantages for his side. As for stats, they only assist with an overall picture, and can not be looked at in isolation.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Jun 2013, 12:00
#36
13 Jun 2013, 12:00#36

Bluebok another issue re Brussouw. How good is he in carrying the ball. Again in my opinion not nearly as good as Deon.

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
14 Jun 2013, 09:17
#37
14 Jun 2013, 09:17#37

Em beeno you guys know our 6 and 7 are the other way around than the rest of the world right? We and the French use that numbering 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Jun 2013, 17:54
#38
14 Jun 2013, 17:54#38

Sorry Spooony I  am missing your point?

OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
14 Jun 2013, 20:06
#39
14 Jun 2013, 20:06#39

Always wondered how Bissie would do at 6. He plays like a loose forward anyway and we don't lose anything with having Strauss as hooker at the set pieces. Bissie seems intelligent enough to be able to be coached in the nuances of the position.

 

 

 

— END OF THREAD —

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