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FORUM / RUGBY /  Boks need to wake up.

Boks need to wake up.

Started by biltongbek33 REPLIES663 VIEWS· 22 Nov 2014, 22:40
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BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
22 Nov 2014, 22:40
#1
22 Nov 2014, 22:40#1

After watching the Springboks fail yet again to negate spoil tactics it is clear that their tactics is still not up to par.


The list of matches against expected weaker teams that manage to stop us play at the breakdown is growing by the minute.


Since 2012 we have had the following matches where we had no answer to teams intent on flooding the breakdown with any tactics available to them.


The list now includes, Argentina, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and after tonight Italy.


It seems as if teams are so aware of our inability to read how various referees handle the breakdown, and our inability to adapt that their main focus is now to frustrate our clean ball, slow the match down by any means necessary and the sad fact is they are succeeding.


Here is a list of the matches and the referees involved in these matches.


Argentina vs South Africa Mendoza 2012 - Steve Walsh

South Africa vs Scotland Nelspruit 2013 - Romain Poite

Argentina vs South Africa Mendoza 2013 - Steve Walsh

South Africa vs Wales Nelspruit 2014 - Steve Walsh

Argentina vs South Africa Salta 2014 - Steve Walsh

Ireland vs South Africa Dublin 2014 - Romain Poite

Italy vs South Africa Padova 2014 - Garces.


That suggests to me that there is a pattern, now what is understandable are the two French referees, but what does not make any sense is Steve Walsh, as South African Franchises play under Steve Walsh during the Super XV.


Naas Botha said something very telling in the post match discussion tonight, South Africa does not get the ball wide enough where there are less forwards to contest the ball in the contact areas who can spoil attacking ball and slow it down.


Nick Mallet in specific was not happy with the manner in which the breakdown was officiated, neither was I, but that doesn't solve the issue as to why we cannot adapt to these spoiling tactics.


It is uncanny that teams have managed to irritate, dominate and spoil our breakdown ball especially when you consider we are supposed to be the most physical forward pack in general play in world rugby, or so I am told.


Are we truly that dense that we cannot figure out how to negate these tactics. Are we so dense that even though these teams play on the edge of the breakdown, we are the ones being penalised more often at the breakdown?


Are we that dense that we truly cannot read referees nor adapt to them?


Whatever the case may be, if Meyer and Richie Gray do not select the right players able to negate this issue, or coach our players a way to deal with this issue then we stand no chance of evolving our attacking play.


Talking of attacking play, without WIllie le Roux our attack is toothless and predictable. I fear for us when he gets injured.


The whole issue of our ineptness at the breakdown and on attack lies with our senior players not being able to adapt or run creative backline plays.


I do not know how many players we can blame for this, but it is definitely pathetic that we cannot fix this.


Watching the AUstralian back line attack tonight was an eye opener and made me realise that the only player in their backline that did not attempt an offload the whole evening was Adam Ashley Cooper, every other player managed to offload in contact.


WHat is also quite evident is that our forward runners have no support runners ready to take the offload, tonight a coupe of times our forward attempted to look for the offload but nobody was running off their shoulders in support.


Warthcing Ireland tonight was clear that they actually play the Bok gameplan of 2009, where they do not play from within their own half, they put many Gary Owens up, chase well and put Australia under enormous pressure.


The All Blacks after struggling to put Wales away in the first sixty, scored their first two tries to break the deadlock, from a chip kick and a cross kick.


South Africa has some work to do.


1. Adapt to the referee interpretations at the breakdown.

2. Adapt to what the opposition is doing at the breakdown.

3. If you can't adapt, then push the contact areas wider where there are fewer opposition forwards.

4. Our tactical attacking kicking is non existent.

5. Our midfield does not pass.

6. When their is turnover ball, get the ball wide immediately.


There are probably a number of other things, but these are major areas of concern.




DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
22 Nov 2014, 23:10
#2
22 Nov 2014, 23:10#2
I'd like to add a lack of a short passing game....... the Boks don't have one and I can't remember them ever having one. 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
22 Nov 2014, 23:37
#3
22 Nov 2014, 23:37#3
Good summary Billies.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
22 Nov 2014, 23:50
#4
22 Nov 2014, 23:50#4
agreed, the ruck area was again an open buffet. The opposition know to slow down the clearance passes and are a nuisance. Francous Louw is being missed in these conditions but the other players should know how to protect the ball better. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
23 Nov 2014, 00:57
#5
23 Nov 2014, 00:57#5
 Mohoje is too lanky to be able to compete at the breakdown so that means we're already a man down in the battle for the breakdown.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Nov 2014, 01:39
#6
23 Nov 2014, 01:39#6
A very good summary BB...you hit the nail on the head...thanks for the intelligent summing up. I agree this senseless criticising of individual players is not the real cause or issue...the fault lies in the head, attitude and game structure/plan.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
23 Nov 2014, 05:00
#7
23 Nov 2014, 05:00#7
 Its not only at the breakdown NH teams are slowing things up to suit themselves .20 minutes of stoppages in the first half of the WAles vs ABS game all so that the pace of the game is lowered to suit themselves .I mean to say time off so the long haired Welsh lout at hooker can dry his farking hair ?I suppose we should be thankful we didnt have to wait while his mummy chuffed off to get his hair dryer !This might suit lardy NH plodders but I notice that SH teams dont seem to feel the need to stop every 15 seconds for a breather ? Is it a ploy to seduce NFL fans with ample time to get in those beers and hot dogs ?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Nov 2014, 05:20
#8
23 Nov 2014, 05:20#8
If you have these phase attacks with no penetration, the point of the breakdown has a pulsing red light. It's not just what happens at the breakdown, it's how you carry the ball into the breakdown. If you don't breach the line you are swarmed.
We need much more penetration by individual runners, much more width and pace. If you have Stepfonten coming off his outside foot, being knocked over by the first tackler and attacked by the player on his shoulder, we are only going to have slow ball or worse yet no ball quite often.
If you can't beat tackles, the odds say you have to kick....we need backs who can beat tackles.
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
23 Nov 2014, 05:23
#9
23 Nov 2014, 05:23#9
 Serfontein is a 12 playing 13, simple as that. You can try and 'dirty his image' but at the end of the day the point that he's attacking from 13 just renders any attempt at suggesting he's not any good biased.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Nov 2014, 05:52
#10
23 Nov 2014, 05:52#10
He has been playing 13? Or he has 13  on his back? 
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
23 Nov 2014, 07:41
#11
23 Nov 2014, 07:41#11

Mozart, with all die respect, can you please end your endless agenda against Serfontein. 


He doesn't f...n step, he hardly ever does, and he takes the ball into contact a mere percentage of the time. Or do you want to blame him for every contact zone?

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
23 Nov 2014, 07:49
#12
23 Nov 2014, 07:49#12
 Dismal performance yet again from the Springboks.
Thank goodness they did not have to play France in this round of EOTY tour.
Shocking but predictable play unfortunately.



BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
23 Nov 2014, 09:17
#13
23 Nov 2014, 09:17#13
 Arthur, are ya talking about the French who lost to the Argies yesterday ?
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Nov 2014, 09:20
#14
23 Nov 2014, 09:20#14
 The difference between the AB's and the Boks is that they can readjust,fix their problems quickly and attack...we seem to lack this ability and it seems it's repetitive.."Bandaiding" our problems. The AB's can regroup, look where they're the problem is, fix it and attack...this is seen how they changed the course of the game against Wales...that's the big difference.


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
23 Nov 2014, 09:28
#15
23 Nov 2014, 09:28#15
That's typical of the French...lost twice to Arg in 2007 after beating a strong AB team...anyway the Argies are no disgrace...we nearly lost to them twice and they beat the Wallaby's. Yes we are perhaps lucky, but I would have liked to see that game...the French blow hot and cold, from one game to another...no disgrace losing to the Pumas, Blobbob.
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
23 Nov 2014, 14:00
#16
23 Nov 2014, 14:00#16
Mozart hit the nail on the head, and this brings us to our centre. We have traditionally be weak in our stock of centres. 
SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
23 Nov 2014, 15:13
#17
23 Nov 2014, 15:13#17
 He always attacks from 13, never 12 so judging him on attack is unfair as he's a creator and being at 13 just negates his talent. As I said before I would rather have De Allende been at 13 and Serfontein on the bench or not playing at all.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Nov 2014, 21:21
#18
23 Nov 2014, 21:21#18
Biltong I could say the same thing about your endless agenda against Matfield. If Steppie doesn't step, what does he do....gas the opposition? Hahaha. Get real. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Nov 2014, 21:44
#19
23 Nov 2014, 21:44#19
 Bwhaaahaaaaa it's Serfontein ' s fault - unbelievable!!!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Nov 2014, 21:57
#20
23 Nov 2014, 21:57#20
 Allende will do better than Jan at 13. JAn also needs to move away from the Bulle where they are turning this very talented creative palyer inot a crash baller. They almost ruined  Sadie!!JJ I see is off to play sevens and that should benefit him.
But a big question is JP. He is offering zip on attack. Hendricks hopefully can be coached into a better defender. He has enough size and is not afaraid to get stuck in. On attack he adds a new dimesion.With Reinach, Pollard, Jean, Allende, Habana (Not jaded), Hendricks and Wille you have a dangerous backline.I still would like to see matfiled given the boot so we can field a proper tight 5. Then we can give Whitley a start and allow him to roam. He has very nice pace, a good rugby brain and skills and can distribute well and make things happen.
What peeves me is the wasted time by Meyer. His investment in Bakkies, Guthro and wee matfiled is a scandal. oupa was possibly forced on him but he too must go and learn his trade. Man he is simply not up to it and played a lot of his rugby off the bench for the lowly Cheetahs!!!!!!!!!!!!! We cant afford this rubbish!!!

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:03
#21
23 Nov 2014, 22:03#21
Look get it clear, physically Serfontein is very ordinary. Average speed, average strength...no great elasticity like Jean. An ordinary guy in the world of centres physically.

Mentally he is gutsy and he cares.....but there are no pictures in his head. He doesnt cut onto the ball with unexpected angles.....he crabs sideways....he doesn't have a sense of danger on defence.

He is just a kid who matured at an early age, and was ahead in age group rugby. Sadly among test centres he is less than average. He will be a place holder I suppose until a really talented centre emerges. Like Taute, moving him to WP will make no difference. 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:16
#22
23 Nov 2014, 22:16#22
Serfontein has it all, he has shown his ability to beat his man on the inside and on the outside. Has more than enough speed for a 12.
Is physically a powerhouse always dominates the physical collisions. 
His biggest issue is the one dimensional Jean standing in his way of playing 12 at test level. He is being wasted at 13, for he is a creator not a finisher.....the very skills that won him the JWC player of the tournament.
A sublime talent being wasted out of position at 13. He does not have the pace required for a 13.  
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:18
#23
23 Nov 2014, 22:18#23
The fact is the combination of Jean and Jan is not working.  
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:27
#24
23 Nov 2014, 22:27#24
 Agreed biltongbek.
We all know the reason it is not working......wrong guy is playing at 12.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:28
#25
23 Nov 2014, 22:28#25
No it is not for the simple reason that Jean is failing in his duties to create for his outside backs and Jan is playing out of position at 13 or worse still having to move between 12 and 13 in a game....what a pathetic call by Meyer to expect this to work
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
23 Nov 2014, 22:40
#26
23 Nov 2014, 22:40#26

 What do you guys think of Paul jordaan?


I know he isn't the biggest center, but he has great skills and oo dles of pace

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Nov 2014, 23:09
#27
23 Nov 2014, 23:09#27
He is a liability defensively has been shown up by bigger players. Fruean made a meal of him. He is like de Jongh has skill in space but a liability in traffic.
Jordaan should play wing.
Kobus v/Wyk is the guy who could make an impression at 13
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
23 Nov 2014, 23:46
#28
23 Nov 2014, 23:46#28
Jordaan is fast with ball in hand, his problem is catching and passing.  He will never make it at test level. Lacks basic skills
BI
biltongbekClub Pro749 posts
24 Nov 2014, 00:10
#29
24 Nov 2014, 00:10#29

I think you are hasty in your judgement of Jordaan. 


Here is his defensive stats in SUper Rugby.


2012 - 6 matches


44 completed tackles

7 missed tackles

1 turnover won


2013 - 8 matches

62 completed tackles

4 missed tackles

0 turnovers won


2014 - 7 matches

80 completed tackles

17 missed tackles ( he played at 12 at the end of the season and missed 11 tackles, five of which was against the Crusaders in the semi )

6 turnovers won.


Average stats.

10 attempted tackles per match, missing 1.4 tackles per match.


Here is some videos of his attacking with ball in hand.






Nothing wrong with his hands.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Nov 2014, 01:05
#30
24 Nov 2014, 01:05#30
Take a look at the S15 semi, where Reid simply ran over the top of him to score. Modern centres have to be strong enough in the upper body. Jordaan isn't.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
24 Nov 2014, 06:04
#31
24 Nov 2014, 06:04#31
BB's core point was this:

"That suggests to me that there is a pattern, now what is understandable are the two French referees, but what does not make any sense is Steve Walsh, as South African Franchises play under Steve Walsh during the Super XV.


Naas Botha said something very telling in the post match discussion tonight, South Africa does not get the ball wide enough where there are less forwards to contest the ball in the contact areas who can spoil attacking ball and slow it down.


Nick Mallet in specific was not happy with the manner in which the breakdown was officiated, neither was I, but that doesn't solve the issue as to why we cannot adapt to these spoiling tactics.


It is uncanny that teams have managed to irritate, dominate and spoil our breakdown ball especially when you consider we are supposed to be the most physical forward pack in general play in world rugby, or so I am told.


Are we truly that dense that we cannot figure out how to negate these tactics. Are we so dense that even though these teams play on the edge of the breakdown, we are the ones being penalised more often at the breakdown?


Are we that dense that we truly cannot read referees nor adapt to them?


Whatever the case may be, if Meyer and Richie Gray do not select the right players able to negate this issue, or coach our players a way to deal with this issue then we stand no chance of evolving our attacking play."


This is the issue...now we are being drawn back into an issue with criticism of centres...in this case Serfontein.


The nail on the head, is the breakdown tactics and how we mundanely repeat them to our peril of referees interpretation...the ability of opposition sides to read us like a book and manipulate our easy to read style because we don't change, create or adapt. That's the real and core point of this thread, not Serfontein.


This is where changes are called for. Let's face it, we are dense...we fall into traps and repeat the same errors again and have difficulty in learning to change.


The AB's are not like like this...they change and adapt...even the French at their best do this...game plans and patterns vary game after game...we don't and so readable...


I'm certainly no expert but even a fool like me can see it...what is so embarrassing is the so-called experts cannot...it appears our coach even. That's I thought BB's points were very apt.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Nov 2014, 06:38
#32
24 Nov 2014, 06:38#32
 With respect, we are no more tactically naive than other national teams. All the teams know what to do....the difference is in execution. There is a vast difference between a real fetcher like Hooper and an all rounder like Coetzee. We were better with Louw, but still not at the top of the class.

The fact is the Boks have only briefly had real fetching capability....with Schalk before his neck injury, and with Brussouw at his best. But we controlled the breakdown better last YE than in our best fetching periods....with Alberts and Flip we had enough power to pound over the ball. Great counter rucking trumps the best fetchers.

Right now with Coetzee and Mahoje our counter ruck is feeble. It's not Matfield or Etzebeths long suit either. They are magnificent mobile locks....but counter rucking favours blocky types, one of the reason I'd like to see Willemse get a chance.
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
24 Nov 2014, 07:07
#33
24 Nov 2014, 07:07#33
Well, with equal respect the AB's have been doing something right...for a long time and suddenly Ireland under S c hm idt are doing something quite spectacular.

South Africa most probably have the greatest pool depth of young players in the world...with all these tools we should stand out, head and shoulders, but we don't.

The real proof is in the eating of the pudding...come September 2015, well lets see.

We tend to criticise individual players before the tactics/structures/gameplans...call them what you like...the game overall...

It's rather like putting the cart before the horse and we cannot see the wood for the trees.

Don't agree with nit picking individual players too much...our tendancy here...no one player can will a game...there are 15 men in the game plus reserve players...the whole unit must cohese...we often lose vision of that.

I once heard some one say you don't make wealth by chasing money or loving it...you do good things for other people with integrity and prosperity will follow...in fact you might not become the richest man but you will be fulfilled and lack very little.

Humanity struggles with priorities...our priority in rugby is how we put it together as a whole...then success will follow...we have plenty of players to chose from in fact too many.

Individuals are not the priority problem but game plans are...once we can fix this then we can eventually start fitting the right players together into that plan...but there must be several effective plans...not only one readable one...change often is painful and unpopular especially with proud and stubborn people which we in SA tend to be...it permeates in all aspects of our troubled past and certainly rugby is not exempt...we must be able to change tactics at a drop of a hat.
Maybe I have not said it well but if you can see my drift?

And I certainly am not inferring to administrative or political changes here...although that does need addressing but that is entirely another issue and has nothing to do this above mentioned issue whatsoever.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
24 Nov 2014, 09:40
#34
24 Nov 2014, 09:40#34
 
I have always rated Jordaan.

He was coming into his own earlier this season till injury stopped his momentum.

Why Meyer insists on playing people out of position is beyond me. Jordaan is a skilled 13 and should have been brought into the mix last season already ... instead we had to endure JJ and Jaque Fourie.

I still feel Serfontein is doing well as a test 13 however would much prefer a specialist there. His natural talent as a footballer in being negated by an out of form Jean.

I don't agree with you at all Sebastien. To me it's very much about selecting the right individual to the right position. Only then can you focus on cohesion and teamwork.

I would much rather have a bunch of specialist, each a master in his own position, playing as a unit than an assortment of "jack of all trades" average at best in their position, representing us. It's foolishness.

As for the fetcher role ... relying on big heavy forwards to pound over the ball in an attempt to win ruck ball is a little silly. Yes it has it's place but shouldn't be a replacement for someone actually competing on the ground ... one with enough pace to get to the breakdown ... someone with the right skill set ... a specialist ... not another retreaded player being slotted in where he doesn't belong.

Meyer is playing Coenie out of position, he's playing Coetzee out of position and he's playing Serfontein out of position.  His latest bit of madness is playing Goosen out of position.

We all saw how well that went down.


— END OF THREAD —

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