Boks real problem!

Let's be brutally honest here guys...The biggest problem that the Boks will face over the next 4 years has nothing to do with skill, talent or player depth. 

SA along with NZ are the only two nations on earth that posses and always will posess an abundance of players that can provide 22 test capable players on any day.

The issue that will present itself over the next year in particular is the scary prospect of losing all the brain power, leadership, knowledge and substance behind the character required to get through those periods when most needed.

Yeah sure we still have Devilliers, Burger, Habana and co to provide experience however these guys have never been real leaders and the extra pressure will see what they can do but the truth is that they are not Matfield and Smit etc.................

You do not lose Bakkies mongrel, Matfields unbelievable skill and mentorship, Fouries experience and guidance behind the pack but most importantly the massive leadership from Smit and expect this Bok team to turn around and start beating the AB's, Welsh, French and Wallabies.

Be afraid as the lowly English will actually show up under all the challenges they are going through and put up a good show. Argentina also proved that they are capable of challenging the Tri Nation giants as they showed in the RWC against the AB's.

Dont be surprised if the Argies pick up a win or two against the Wallabies and Boks or run all the 3N's very close.

Many are picking that the AB's will have an easy run in with the Irish....I dont know why anyone would say that as this nation has never came to NZ with an attitude other than to beat the AB's...again I see a close very very close series. The Wallabies will beat the Welsh but will lose a test match against  them also.

 We will lose against England. Because od circumstances I haven't seen super 15 but what I hear scares me

 Good post rad, but I am feeling extremely optomistic about our future given the talent coming through. We will have lost some class acts and experience in Steenkamp, Smit, Matfield, Bakkies, Smith, du Preez, James and Fourie. In Smit we have lost one of our top leaders ever.

But we have enough experience in Habana, JP, Frans, Jean, Morne, Beast, Bismark, Jannie, Bekker, Brussouw, Schalk, Alberts and Spies to form the core of our side moving forward.

But the most exciting aspect of it all is that the young talent coming through is better than we have had in years and years.

Hell there are going to be some seriously good test players emerging from the likes of Etzebeth, Kitshoff, Coenie, A.Strauss, Chiliboy, Elstadt, Flip, J.Kruger, CJ Stander, Kolisi, Daniel, M.Coetzee, J.Strauss, Vermeulen, Potgieter, Hougaard, Goosen, Jantjies, Lambie and Taute on one level and the likes of Buyers, Mvovo, Mjekevu, Le Roux, Sithole, Jordaan, JJ.Engelbrecht, Whitehead, Howard, Serfontein, F.Venter, JP du Plessis, v/Zyl, M.v/d Merwe, Nkanyane, Malherbe, Kirtsen, R. de Klerk, W.Kruger, Greyling, Kebble, Q.Roux, Willemse, R.Botha, Steph du Toit, JA Marais, E.Oosthuizen, J. du Plessis, Bresler, D.Fourie, Burden, Carr, Koster, v/d Walt, Liebenberg, Kankan, Deysel on another level.

The only real issue is who is going to lead this next generation of Boks. There is no standout leader if one selects the best 15 players in SA. Meyer must select his best 15 and trust his instincts with regards to leadership

 I disagree. I think on the field their were too many leaders. We have a great coach, the best in South Africa who will bring the leadership. With PDV we had a player management structure, with PDV as the cheerleader. The Bulls did not win the Super15 with onfield leadership, rather than strong coaching

radtad we have problems but I am not too concerned re leadership and experience.

Fact is lardy was overated as a captain. We will soon see that in this new era. I can only say thank goodness we have seen the last of wee matfield (107 kg) We can now move from a tight 4 to having a tight five for the first time in years!!

As for brain power well we now have Meyer who is a genuine coach instead of smit and matfield trying to coach the side and having little clue. In addition, we have the very astute Rassie Erasmus perhaps the leading rugby brain in the world.

No, the problems we face are injuries to a few players like Burger and Vermuelen. In addition, we have a new team assembling and it will take some time for them to gell.

The  thing bothering me is will Meyer pick the right side and, in particualr the right power pack. Everything hinges on forward dominance and we now have the pack to dominate if we choose correctly. I wait with baited breath. No more show ponies please lets get back to picking the real deals in the true Bok tradition. Terrify the abs as we always used to before isolation.

Also how will Loubscher cope as backline coach - is this a stroke of genius or a mistake. Certainly its a gamble of note.

That said England will be comfortably accounted for as usual. Once we get our players all back, get the selctions right  and settle down so will nz and oz  be dealt with - be it ever so harshly.

Take it from Beeno! 

Hi guys,

All interesting and valid points made by everyone - but one things for sure Meyer will bring some real intellect and more importantly surround himself with those who skills will suit his strategy....It will be very interesting to see how it goes.

Nonetheless, even with all the player talent the Bokkie posses and have had for many many years and the history we have behind the test results, are we happy with where we are at?

Selections are so important as what Beeno mentioned. Meyer will show his style soon with the make up and construct of the Bok test team that will run out against the English. I disagree about a power pack Beeno I believe a skilled mobile and thinking pack will compete better in this age where most players are conditioned to be fast and skilled. I cant remember a Bok pack that has ever terrified an All Black pack however if you think thats where we should be going then I am not going to argue with you other than to state my points - but I love your fervour and passion for the Bokkies.......

However, I will stand strong to my point about the importance of leadership and having that character of strength at the most  important games. Lets not be just the brest team in the world at home lets go to NZ reguarly and beat them, cause I get sick of seeing them come to our nation and reguarly beat us. So again I highlight my point if it was difficult to beat the best then how do we expect this new lot to do it with out Smit, Matfield, Fourie and co.....................

Nonetheless good points by all and we will all be judged within the next 2 months......

radtad, all will be revealed to you should the Stormers field their best pack against the crusties. The cruties have a thinking mobile pack with a lot of abs in it. However it is my contention that they will come off second best agaisnt a full strength Stormers pack. Further the Stormers pack can be augmented perhaps by Bissie etc. All this is prefaced by the fact I am talking about a game officated by a competent impartial ref!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would do well to harke unto Bakkies who said so famously that victor doesnt always play in the backline. As a lock he was a disaster. Hougaard is as good as Fourie anyday and Bissie is a better hooker than Smit ever was. I do agree with you that our results have not been as good as they should have been given the talent available. But then what side would cope without a coach?

Great to have you aboard radtad!

Beeno stop speaking kak, name a better Bok captain than Smit

Rad we have lost Smit, but gained Bismark, Strauss and Chiliboy. We have lost Matfield but gained Bekker, Flip, Jeandre Kruger, Etzebeth and Elstadt. We have lost du Preez but gained Hougaard........we just cant go wrong

I saw a fairly even match up when the Saders and Storm met in NZ, taking away the fact that there were players out from both sides I dont feel the same confidence that you do about the dominance that may proceed from a fully fit pack from both sides....pretty even if you ask me?

I agaree about the ref's there are some real shockers coming through from all which is a concern however every year rules change and continuity and consistency goes out the window.

Wow I cant understand your feelings about Matfield that is just plain confusing....but I am sure you have your reasons. I do agree that Smit was not as skillfull ordynamic as Bissie and was probably a year or two past his use by date but there were many other things that he bought to the team that Bissie could never have done also. Lets remember if the Bokkie got through the RWC over the Wallabies as they should have - who knows what could have happened against the AB's?

Saffex yes absolutely agree we have lost and gained but what we have in gained in skil we have lost in that last 5% experience and composure that is required when the real tests come down to the wire...Its when we really need to win that matters not when we are 20 points up against a weaker nation. Have we lost so much knowledge and experience and leadership in a single saeson before? I cant remember when...I am not being a doomsayer guys absolutely not I just worry that the AB'ss still posses massive leadership and still appear to be bringing through talent on a par with SA. The Wallabies havent lost much either but have always competed against us more than I wwouldhave liked.

Beeno thanks for the welcome!!!

Nope, we have enough experience to form the core of the side. The kids coming through will provide us with vigour and a sense of excitement. The side was getting too old, the change is coming at the right time.

As I have mentioned before, there is enough experience in Habana, JP, Jean, Frans, Morne, Beast, Bismark, Jannie, Bekker, Brussouw, Schalk and Spies to form the core and some brilliant young talent in Lambie, Mvovo, JJ.Engelbrecht, Taute, Sadie, Whitehead, Jordaan, Goosen, Jantjies, Hougaard, Kitshoff, Coenie, Malherbe, Chiliboy, Strauss, Etzebeth, Elstadt, CJ Stander, Kolisi, Vermeulen, M.Coetzee and Josh Strauss to add the spark

radtad think of it. We were missing, Etzebeth, Bekker, Burger and wasn't vermulen also out - orget now.

That is a huge in trms of the packs effectiveness.

The crusties were mising the ageing mccaw. Who else can one think of.

The crusties will b equaking in theor boots if faced by a full Stormers pack!!  Get in the face of the nz and they crumble - we have seen that again and again. Hence forward dominance is non negoitable and comes from fielding a pack devoid of show ponies.

Sapster  once the Boks get going folk will forget about the likes of John. The idea that he is indespensible will be proven false.

Abs must prepare for Boks ruling as we used to befoe isolation. Read in a Sports Illustrated that up to 1992 we were 54% ahead of nz in tests. We have now dropped to 30% but that is about to change - markets revert to the mean stuff!  Hahhahahahahaha glum days ahead for ou sitting bull and brycy and the boys down under!

Some good points here and some just plain down crazy, but I have not felt so confident about the Boks since 2009. We have a lovely blend of youth and experience and this makes for a great side. The problem/challenge is the guy who takes over the captaincy needs to have the diplomacy and charisma that Smit had and its that which set him apart from others. Smit knew how to manage referees which is a skill that none of our present leaders have except maybe Jean, but who is not the best in his position even though he's having a good Super season so far. There are leaders aplenty in our incumbent Bok squad, but no stand-out captain. Captain needs to be a great communicator and have the ability to push the ref without annoying him and has to be cool-headed. JDV is the best we've got so far.

Agreed green, we have no stand out leaders. Jean does not come across as any better than the rest and is no longer a cert to start. I would not start with him. Spies hardly inspires one as a leader, nor do Bekker, Bismark or Schalk.

The best leader of the lot is Josh Strauss, but he is yet to be capped and even if he was could he walk straight into captaincy - no

We are going to have to make do with a great side and an adequate captain I reckon. I reckon Spies, Bekker and Bismark are certs to start, so it will have to be one of them. I'd go with Bekker

Jean has the better brain and I trust Meyer will recognise that. Then when Burger gets back its over to him.

Beeno, catch a wake up - Jean is not good enough to start unless you think that its wise to move him to the more demanding role of 13 from a speed point of view at the age of 30?

What a poor conservative selection that would be. Schalk wont make the starting line-up there are better options amongst the younger loosies

Dave you should catch a wake up....our very best back in the RWC QF was Jean.....and now he isn't good enough? Bollocks.

Rad the Stormers are doing quite decently without any of the old guard leadership on the field. Competence in key positions goes a long way to providing tactical leadership.

Dave your eyes are failing you. A Stormers coach said that Jean has not lost speed. He was a Bok wing to begin with.

What deceives you is because he is a big lad he is slow - he is not slow.

As Moz said best SA back bar, Frans perhaps, at the WC.

Guys we have moved on from the WC, Jean is that much older and slower and done nothing this season to suggest we should move him to the more demanding position of outside centre - more demanding from a speed point of view.

Why on earth would we want to move an old man to outside centre when we have some speedy youngsters more than capable of doing the job. What a backward conservative selection that would be. How the hell can we expect to dominate the world with Jean at 13 - heaven help us.

Yes he was a great inside centre in his day, his day is done

Dav please just accept Jen as our new Bok captain. In due time youwill see the error of your ways but will not admit it! Jean has pace to burn. 

Kak Beeno there is no way in hell Jean can match a youngster for speed and one would swear Jean had already been selected as our captain. I hope like hell he is not selected at 13, for if we are going to play a backline with Morne at 10 and Jean at 13, we dont have a hope in hell of competing

"Guys we have moved on from the WC, Jean is that much older and slower and done nothing this season to suggest we should move him to the more demanding position of outside centre - more demanding from a speed point of view.".....Sappster

Dave...  Jean has been in the S15 team of the week 3 times in about 7 matches. That's one of the highest selection rates in the tournament. Your facts are not facts.

 Moz, I'm not too convinced about that. 

In 2003 I went to Cape Town by car and decided to stay over in Bloem - there was a conference and I could nort find accommodation - so i drove to Kimberley and stayed in the same hotel as the Western Province team.   They were playing Griquas the next day (Saturday)  and  I got aa ticket from the nicest of coaches - Gert Smal - and went to watch the game.   Two players who just started in their careers - Marius Joubert and Jean De Villiers - played in that game.

De Villiers had a sensational game and it was evident that he  was going to be one of the best back line players ever in SA.    However, when he became a candidate for selection - there were all kinds of comments that he did not perform well enough to qualify for selection.   I do not know - but SAFFEX must have written that at the time - since he sounds exactly as repetitive as was the case back then.

One other thing about that visit to Kimberley - it was definite that the WP team was in town.   When walking to the breakfast room the Sunday morning there were some cleaning ladies standing in front of one room - looking at a discarded panty.    They won games all around - especially with the young birds from Kimberley. 

Hi Guys,

Thanks for everyones input,it sure is great to see that there is passion and fire in the hearts of the Bokkie supporters. If JDV turns out to be the captain of our 2012 Boks then so be it - In Meyer we trust!!!

JDV will probably have a good idea if he is or not going to be the captain as I am sure that they will wont the leadership team in place now devising stratergies to bring down the English and later on the other 3N off the new Championship Tourney.

As I have gone on more than once now - You do not lose that amount of experience and leadership no matter how much talent you have without it not impacting on the culture and attitude within the bokkie camp.

My concern would be that some of our core players are starting to get injured more and its hard to lead from the sideline JDV would sit at the top of the list for taking undue holidays...hehe, Burger's playing style has always made him prone to injury and I need not mention the many other top line players we are struggling without.

As I pointed out we have skill to replace but again what I am pressing here is that we dont have the core experience, leadership that assists with composure belief and the sheer dogedness that Smit, Matfield and co bought to the Bokkies........................

I so hope I am wrong  but only time will tell. As has been seen many times before just because you are strong in Super Rugby doesn't mean you will dominate the Tri Nations. Competence on the field at Super Rugby level is completey different to the competence required at test level.

Rad the concern as to who remains standing is very real. Lets hope there are no more injuries.

We do not want the poms to get a wrong notions as to who is baas and ditto Oz and nz!! 

Becs and Lady MO(NH) always tend to overrate the NH sides and come down to reality every world cup bar 1 I think it is! An England win would only lead them to draw all sorts of wrong conclusions.

I think on their day, Smit and Co were an amazing group of talented players that should have dominated rugby for years to follow after the 2007 world cup. But a quota coach with no leadership skills or plan, senior players who believed that they are more important than the team and put their own selfish need to hang on to the bok jersey above other talented players have resulted in the last couple of years into probably being one of the worst performing boks teams on record by any bok side. 

I can share those same feelings of people on here that feel that they have been let down. We had a golden opportunity to be a dominate force for a continued period of time but all we ended up doing is to stutter through competitions. 

I hope that we never accept a mediocre coach ever and that no single player is more important than the Springboks. If you want to play for the boks you should be the best in your position, not just against other local players, but strive to be the best player in the world. No player has any claim to the jersey. You're there because you are the best for now, not just what you have achieved in the past. 

I think Meyer is on the right path, I like the intelligence that he is applying and have been impressed with his approach.

Let’s give the man a chance.

Kingcorn - some good thoughts and TBH the sentiments of many I think.

Beeno I am yet to come across those NH posters but I am sure in no time soon when the roses turn up that our boards will light up - I look forward to it.

An England win is not an option at this stage PERIOD!!!!

"Becs and Lady MO(NH) always tend to overrate the NH sides and come down to reality every world cup bar 1 I think it is! An England win would only lead them to draw all sorts of wrong conclusions."

After 1995, a NH team featured in each and every RWC final.

"I think on their day, Smit and Co were an amazing group of talented players that should have dominated rugby for years to follow after the 2007 world cup."

.....................followed by............

"..........need to hang on to the bok jersey above other talented players.............."

?

Ceradyne, taken out of context, with a better coach John Smit and his boys could have dominated in the first three years after the world cup. When Div took over the boks had a mediaocre start to their reign which followed by a sucessful 2009 but after that year the wheels started to come off. By 2010 we couldn't buy a win against the top teams and the players that once stood proud were no longer the players of 2009. Be it management or players egos. That said, any legendary player worth his salt would have realised that the best thing they can do for the team was to step aside, but in an environment where the coach had no spine and the players ruled the roost only their egos stood in the way, undoing all the good work they have done before, but only in short spurts. 

That said, had the likes such as Victor, Smit, Du Preez, Burger, Habana, JP etc been dropped early on, would have surely prompted them to step up their game, but they were to powerful as a group. 

Point is, you need a coach with strong leadership qualities and that is not afraid to make the hard decisions, not matter what players achieved before.

That said, when the boks did well in 2009, one should note that the all blacks played really poor that year. They were trying new things and brought in a host of young new players. But it only took them one year to get back to top form.

With Meyer I hope that we can have that same consistentcy. Win every single game and be brafe to make the hard decisions when it counts. 

Kingcorn, you hit the nail on the head in a way, by saying "in the first three years". I say in a way because it is not a certainty that it would only have been needed for the first three years. Unfortunately history is a set of unchangeable facts. Let me explain my point of view regarding this.

Jake did leave behind a success story, despite his "track record" leading up to the 2007 RWC, but he left behind a core of players who could, or maybe should have been the 2011 RWC's. In fact, they should have gone into the 2011 RWC as the world no 1 ranked team, had it not been for SARU. Not PDV................. SARU, because they made the first mistake by first treatingh Jake White like shit, and then firing him. That was where the crap started. PDV was just the culmination of the bumbling idiots' screw-ups.

With PDV in the saddle, there was no proper player management plan in place. Oldder players should have been used selectively in the two years leading up to the '11RWC. PDV was on cloud 9 after the 2009 success and then fell down in 2010. He panicked and deviated from his idea to rest manage all the players properly and each and every game became a must-win to save his bacon. Even the 2010 EOYT, which saw Victor Matfield having to play because of the 2010TN debacle. In addition, there was the entire balls-up with John Smit, and Plumtree had his fair share in it as well. PDV wanted his bread buttered on both sides and he wanted jam as well. He wanted the leadership of John Smit and he wanted Bismarck. Had SARU had a proper succession plan for Jake White in place, John would probably not have signed with Clermont to go to France. (They knew they were going to fire JW, yet they waited until the 11th hour to confirm that-nothing new TBH). Between Plumtree and PDV (and Gary Gold as well, actually) they fvcked up John Smit.

None of those "old" players were really too old. They were just not managed correctly. The core/most important "old players" were JS, VM and FDP, and Bakkies as well, but Bakkies was not overplayed due to injuries and suspensions. JS, was stuffed up. FDP was played with injuries that were not properly rehabilitated, IMO, and Frans Ludeke had a part in that as well. He again picked up a shoulder injury during the 2010 S14 final, towards the end of the game, IIRC, and Ludeke kept him on the pitch untill the end of the game. VM was just plainly overplayed. Of the three of them, he was the only one who was not out for extended per of time, bar a few games at the beginning of the 2010 S14 season, IIRC. In addition he went on the 2010 EOYT. Danie Rossouw was never overplayed which is why he went through the 2011RWC unscathed.

As they say about hindsight..................... I am sure that had PDV played his cards (and his players) right, John Smit, FDP and VM could have been the ley to us retaining the RWC title. I do not believe that turning 30 should be the death warrant to a player's career. There are just too many examples of 30+year olds playeing great rugby, provided they are well managed.

Yes windpomp and lost them all but 1. Only England have won the WC in all these years since inception of the competition. All the other world cups have been won by Boks, Oz and NZ. No more hot air on the subject windpomp - those are the hard facts.

If you are still struggling with this go and take a peak at the world ranking. You could even do a calc of SH versus NH teams time in the top 3. Would the SH have 90%?

Ag whatever ou Beenbal. You wouldn't understand.

 Ceradyne - Yes, Saru made a massive ballsup  in selecting DIV, but don't forget how vocal PDV was about Jake and that he would be a far better coach than Jake White. DIV had powerful political allies in Cheeky Watson and it was a forgone conclusion that he would get the job well before the the 2007 WC kicked off. It didn't matter what White did, he was a gonner. The mistake they made was thinking that Div won a junior championship title and should have the same success as white. 

I agree those players mentioned could have done much better had they been managed properly but as you said that is history, but we can take a lot from this and make sure it doesn't happen again. 

My point is, players shouldn't have so much power. Which the likes of Matfield and Smit clearly had to much influence. Firstly they are players and not coaches. I do believe they need to shoulder some of the responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate DIV and for the first time in my life I hoped the boks didn't win the WC, just that I didn't want to see his mug spread everwhere, even if we got past the quarters and made it to the semis or finals he might have still be in a job. 

SARU has a really poor track record for managing coaches, these guys should be completely removed and have more competent people in place.

But at least we have Meyer now, just hope that his path ahead are not fully of potholes. 

@Kingcorn. Look, I am not making any excuse for Twakkies. Not in the least. He was/is am idiot of note. SARU could had many options availabe to them if they really wanted a POC coach. They could have been open and frank with him and said: "Listen, we will appoint you, but we are giving this and that person, who will be your assitants", in other words they should have appointed his support staff for him before hand. The other way would have been to make him an assistant coach, but that would have been stupid, because they did that with Allister Coetzee. IMO, the only logical person would have been Coetzee, if a POC coach was there end goal.

As far as the "power of the senior players" are concerened, I think it is something that was blown out of perportion by the media. Yes, they did get involved, and they did in some ways take over, but that would not have been necesary, had PDV not been dumped on them. Had the senior players not intervened, thyey would still have been trying PDV's "exapansive rugby" in the RWC, and would not even have made it into the QF's.

This is not a first in world rugby. We had a similar scenario in the 2007 RWC with the senior England players and the coach after the Bokke hammered them 36-0. Nobody gave them a chance in hell too even make the QF's, let alone the final. I think we reached the QF of the RWC not because of PDV & Co, but because of the "rehabilitation camp" where the senior players were involved with Rassie and Nienaber. Now before Ou Beenbal jumps on my back, and say that I am admitting that Rassie is a coach of note, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that I suspect that between Rassie, Nienaber, and the senior players they paved the way for us to get where we got.

My viewpoint on Rassie is a different kettle of fish altogether, and for another time.