Bring back BAKKIES the nemises of wee brad

With Bekker gone and Meyer selecting the likes of Juandre a competent but non dominating lock its time to bring back Bakkies to mentor young Eztebeth and Du Toit.

The following is the pack I would like to see pummelling the wee abs till their squeals reach a crescendo:

Coenie. Bismark, Malherbe

Etzebeth, Bakkies

Louw, Van der Walt and Arno Botha

The tight five is very strong and so one could consider lightening the loose trio. If one wanted  a complete demolition job of the wee abs then of course we could have Vermuelen and Alberts there. However I am afraid the abs would cry off completely if we picked so formidable a pack. The above pack has nice balance to it and is suitable for a game on the highveldt. Not a show pony in sight.

However the fact is Bakkies can do a job for us at least this year (Lets buy som etim efo rDu Toit and give the guys the bnefit of all the great Bakkies can teach them). Meyer must get him and Louw back fo the tests.

Reserve bench wuld b Beast, Strauss, Du Toit and one of Alberts Vermuelen and Lappies.

Man there is so much forward talent and so many possibilities!  I think though tha tthe guys names her ear ethe main contenders. However if you want a small extemely mobil edynamic flanker at 6 look no furthe rthan Deon Fourie whose Bok chances were stuffed ths year by playing him hooker. Thereby giving ou snapster halfwitted grounds to preferring brussouw. Hahahahahahaha

From our homepage:

Toulon lock Bakkies Botha revealed that he is ready to play for South Africa if Springbok coach Heyneke Heyneke Meyer needs his services.

Botha, who helped Toluon to a 16-15 victory over Clermont in the Heineken Cup Final last weekend, said he has not been in contact with Meye but feels he can still do a job for his country.

“I always say to people it’s not in my hands, at the end of the day it’s in God’s hands and I just want to keep myself as fit as possible so if there comes a call through then I’ll be ready," he told the Eyewitness News website.

“I love it in Toulon, I’m just happy we can win a trophy like the Heineken Cup. I don’t know what the future holds for me but I just want to keep myself healthy and fit.”

The 33-year-old hasn't played for the Springboks since the 2011 World Cup but he believes his stint at Toloun proves that he can make the step up to Test level.

“It (Heineken Cup title) shows that I didn’t just come overseas to collect my pension or retire," he added.

"We’re putting in the hard yards, the Heineken Cup final and the winning of it, shows the outside world that we’re not in Toulon to have a nice holiday and get some good money to retire.

“We work hard and the way we work hard means that we can still participate with international teams.”

King Bakkies using the royal we which of course in his case is most fitting.

Please can i ask tha thlafwits tr yand get some perspective here and dont give knee jerk reactions about Bakkies being to old to compete in 2013. With ou snapste once youare out of the under 21 s you are going downhill fast. Hahahahhahaha

What crap, time to move on. We are more than covered at lock with Etzebeth and PSDT. I'd be really pissed off if we brought back another old man. 

The youngsters are playing better rugby than old man Bakkies who has been solid up North but hardly world beating

Oh come on snaster your obssession with youth is blinding you to an opportunity. I cannot believe Bakkies cant teach these youngsters a lot. He must still be good for  60 minutes. Man Toulon won the Cup!  

Not saying he comes back for more than a year. Reassess at end of year. 

Man what a great lock Bakkies was - did the work of two locks both for the bull and the Boks. Will these youngsters fill his big boots. Time will tell.

 Having Bakkies and Eztebeth would be 2 enforcers. 

The wee  All Blacks would not be able to contain this power. 

I think Bakkies would play well today, but what will he be like in 2 years? 

We do have to consider 4 year cycles of peaking for World cups.

Have to be mindful of the present as well as the future- to quote" Sasuke & Qun Jon Jedi Knight"

Bakkies would fill in very nicely beano.... IF he didn't cost you 20 points in penalty’s, then get sent off. Built like a truck but a hot head and a liability in a tight test match. I'd also worry about him rubbing off on Etzebeth too much.

We dont need Bakkies, if we were short of locks then fair enough. We have young locks to burn. Bakkies is done, time to move on

snaspter we have young locks to burn- quite right - three best are Etzebeth, Du Toit and De Jager - a great young trio and some others one could mention.

Older locks  - Flip and Juandre. Is Juandre really test class? Are these two better than Bakkies. Bakkies also has huge experience. Bring him in for this year.

WHAT????

Dont be stupid Beano!!! For crying out loud!!

Bakkies is past his prime. Time to move on. We have the talent.

Besides they're both blindside locks.

We need a little finesse at 5 like Victor use to bring. Not head butting old men like Bakkies.

Besides Etzebeth has already shown promise at administering the "Liverpool Kiss"

One head butter in the team is enough, me thinks.

Nope and neither is Flip.

Still ... it doesn't warrant the return of Bakkies.

I have just seen this article on Supesport by Gavin Rich. It might bring ou snapster to his senses

None of the overseas based players were included in the Springbok training squad asked to attend a camp in Durban next week ahead of the June international series, so it’s not possible to say for certain at this stage whether coach Heyneke Meyer is intending to make use of veteran Bakkies Botha.

The decorated former Bok and Bulls lock has been playing for French club Toulon since the last World Cup and has not played international rugby in that time. However, he has always said he would love to wear the green and gold again, and Meyer did say after a training camp in Cape Town a few weeks ago that he was looking at the experience that Botha could bring to the group.

Meyer probably did his planning a while ago, but there are events that keep happening that force him to be fluid with his planning and thinking, with the high attrition rate in Super Rugby making it nearly impossible to settle on a group of players or combinations.

However, while most of the injuries are negative as they rob the Springboks of depth, one injury this past weekend may actually have helped Meyer rather than hindered him. It’s never been a secret that the condition of Andries Bekker’s back has turned him into a walking time-bomb, and with injury preventing Stormers coach Allister Coetzee from rotating selection as he would like to have, there was some inevitability about Bekker breaking down as he did after the Rebels game.

An MRI scan detected a tear in a disc on Bekker’s lower back. He hasn’t been available to play for the Springboks in June over the past three years because of back injuries, and it may be a moot point now that he is off to Japan and unavailable that even if he had stayed committed to the Boks he would once again not be in action during the June window.

The departure to Japan of Bekker is a big blow to Meyer as he was just starting to get used to life without Victor Matfield. Juandre Kruger did a great job at No 5 on the end of year tour and the Boks hardly lost a lineout in three matches. He should be the man entrusted with the role of calling the lineout in the June internationals and beyond that in the Castle Rugby Championship.

Although like Bekker the Bulls lock is leaving Super Rugby at the end of the season to take up a contract overseas, in Kruger’s case he will still be available to play international rugby if needed. But what happens if Kruger breaks down? Pieter-Steph du Toit is still young, and at the moment the only lock in the group that will report to Durban next week who has any international experience that extends beyond just last year is Flip van der Merwe.

But he has only played in patches, and wouldn’t play ahead of Eben Etzebeth as a No 4 lock now that the Stormers behemoth is fit again after missing most of the early part of the Super Rugby season because of injury. That is where Botha comes in – he can add experience to the group and, as Meyer pointed out in Cape Town in April, can help Etzebeth develop by rubbing off what he knows on the youngster. (Sound thinking there Meyer)

With Bekker now sidelined, possibly never to return again to Stormers clothing, a new option has been added to the mix – Botha and Etzebeth possibly playing as a combination. Stormers forward coach Matt Proudfoot has long been working on making Etzebeth a lock who can fulfill both the tight No 4 role or the more loose and lineout leader orientated No 5, and against the Reds on Saturday Etzebeth will get the chance to show what he can do.

He will be wearing the Stormers No 5 as opposed to the customary No 4, and it is one of the reasons that skipper Jean de Villiers and coach Allister Coetzee say they are excited about the team that has been selected.

“It’s a great opportunity for Eben. He is a brilliant international player and to get him to call the lineouts against Reds captain and Wallaby lock James Horwill and an experienced Reds pack will be a good experience for him and will be part of his development going forward,” said Coetzee.

With Bekker’s career at the Stormers all but over (at least for now, there may be an intention for him to return in 2015 to press for a World Cup place), Saturday’s game could determine whether he moves into a middle of the line and lineout caller option more permanently. De Kock Steenkamp, currently injured, played well in the early part of the season as a No 4, and Gerbrandt Grobler, who starts for the first time at Super Rugby level against the Reds, is also considered highly promising.

Indeed, the Stormers’ situation is mirrored around the country – there appear to be many big bruising No 4 locks, but the cupboard is a lot less cluttered when it comes to No 5. And Meyer may even have hinted at a possible switch for Etzebeth when he said at the recent training camp that “maybe we will switch one of our locks to become a No 5”.

There was enough other information that Meyer had given them at that session for the media to ignore the hint, but if he wasn’t referring to Etzebeth, who was he referring to? Etzebeth, a star athlete at school, played No 5 for much of his junior career and as he showed in featuring in two of the three Stormers tries against the Rebels, he does have the attributes for a change of roles.

That does not necessarily mean though that selecting him at No 5 will mean that opponents won’t still be feeling the full force of his powerful clean-outs and his strength in the tight-loose.

“Eben will play to his strengths and he can play both roles – towards the ball, and he has been carrying it well too. Gerbrandt is at four and needs to make sure that he plays towards the ball and does the cleaning-out job for us. He needs to be aggressive at the breakdown.”

The locks called up to the Springbok training camp are Etzebeth, Flip van der Merwe, Juandre Kruger and Pieter-Steph du Toit.

Part of the reason the Boks only achieved a 67% record under Meyer last year was his pathetic reliance of experience, ie players that had past it. We certainly do not need another in Bakkies.

We have Etzebeth and PSDT, we dont need Bakkies at all. Flip is a good player and in good form, if we need to draw on him then fair enough.

We do NOT needs Bakkies, we are already hanging onto a number of washed up old farts

Flip is useless.

He probably contributes even less than Hougat does every match.

Not a Bok by any means!!!!!

Saffex

The mere dea of bringing in  playr soon to be 34 years of age while we should prepare for the 2015 WC - borders on lunacy.   The man is past his priime and well past it.  We do not need a Brad thorne who has to thrive on penalties merely to keep up with he game.   I thin if Meyer does thia it will be a further sign that he is clueless.

Has he not learnt rom the debacle caused by his nonsencical selections last year by pickuing a bunch of hasbeens like Steenkamp - fat and useless and then had to hunt aroud the clubs in England to find bench players?

How good is Bakkies really?   Club Rugby in Europe is not up to Super 15 standard and here we have a player earning pension money being punted forthe Sprinbok team.   How the hell are we going to encourage people not to take oforeign contracts - if we select Springboks from the foreign clubs?   I am beginning to feel that thy should say to players - "Fine, accept foreing contracts -but you will never play for the Springboks".

In any event - this whole story hearkening back to the past is sickening and counte-productive in the longer run.  

Bakkies has been good for Toloun, he has been his usual self but at a slower pace. But he is nowhere near where Etzebeth is in terms of energy and he does not have the athleticism that PSDT will be able to provide at 5.

Bakkies certainly would not let the Boks down in the way Steenkamp and CJ did, but he is not better than the youngsters coming through and therefore he is not needed.

BradThorne2011=Feb75+36.75> BakkiesBotha2015=Sept79+36.08

 @Polyboy- 

The All Blacks win more games through the backs than forwards.

Sometimes the forward pack is on par with the opposition and sometimes lesser so.

Look at the end of the year tour - Allblacks vs Scotland. Scotland appeared to be dominating the forward battle, but the All Black backs just put them away when ever close to the Scots line on attack.

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The All Black forwards are good at quick recycling and turnovers. They are also very mobile for the full 80 minutes. 

However It is the superior passing skills of the All Blacks backline that makes them win most of the time. 

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That is why I would not bet on the All Blacks retaining their WorldCup title. As the game will be in the Northern Hemishpere, it will probably be more trenchware fare and about the forwards winning the battle of the advantage line through strong carriers. The All Blacks will win somegames but not enough for the whole tournament to come out on top.

 Have never rated Brad Thorn

Well dave that's amazing. Thorn has been a fixture in the NZ team for years. You have to be good to accomplish that. And my own take is, he has bested Bakkies as often as he has been bested. A really shrewd rugby player.

As for your point Sharkbok, I have to somewhat disagree as well. In the really big games the NZ forwards come to play and have often been the difference in Bok/AB tests. Take the 2003 RWCQF. Our big scrum with Bezuidenhout and Rautenbach was supposed to dominate. Instead Somerville tore Bezuidenhout apart....and power running by Collins and Mealamu got the team over the advantage line. We were firstly beaten up front in that game....and then put to the sword by Spencer.

Cant say Thorn ever stood out with ball in hand on the charge or was very noticeable in general play or ever put in massive hits.

He was not the tallest (1.95m) or heaviest (112kg) of locks so would never have been a threat in the line-outs or been massive in the engine room.

He was a hard man, but I just never got it. I dont ever recall him getting the better of Bakkies.

He was a solid, hard man no doubt, I just have never really noticed him and therefore have never rated him.

Bakkies was never in the same class as Thorn.

Thorn was a grafter and great scrummager. All Bakkies will be remembered for outside SA are  his cheap shots and dirty play.

You Saffers have the same fascination with Itsabutt. Show some aggro and lunacy and you blokes think he's a champion which he's certainly not!

Quite right snaspter brad has always been average at most whilst Bakkies is an all time great. That these kiwi bird brain dont like bakkies is very understandably.

One memory I do have of brad is his dropping John smith on his back and dickinson doing zip about it. Disgusting stuff from bad brad. kiwis always tried to give bakkies a bad reputation because they were scared of him and hoped to quench the fire in him.

 @Mozart, I was referring more to recent years from 1994 onwards. (post Jake White)

The 2003 bok team was coached by the schizofrenic Rodoelf Straulie. 

The 1996-1997 All Black forwards were awesome as well.

Apart from scrumaging and fast ruck play, I think the Bok Forwards are better than the All Black forwards-especially from 2004 onwards.

Moola get a bloody grip, Bakkies was twice the player Thorn ever was. Bakkies is the best enforcer lock to have played the game. Thorn probably should never have won a single cap for the AB's

He is a bog ordinary lock......Bakkies, Matfield, Etzebeth, Steph du Toit, Flip, Whitelock, Ali Williams, Retallick, Horwill, Sharpe, Simmons, Pyle, O'Connell, Gray, Jim Hamilton, Alwyn Jones, Parling, Shaw and the likes are all better locks

 Thorn is a champion player end of, one of the best All Black locks we've had in the last 20 years - to suggest otherwise is complete ignorance of the contribution he made to All Black test matches, and probably of locking play full stop.  You only have to ask the players he played with to know how highly we has rated - he will more likely be remembered for his contributions to the game far longer outside of SA than Bakkies will.

Disagree, Thorn is a bog ordinary lock, always has been. Goes unnoticed , makes little impression. Too small for a lock really, probably should have played blindside to have been taken seriously. He is the one Kiwi lock I have never rated. I rate all the other test Kiwi locks ahead of him. 

1.95m and 112kg has blindside flanker written all over him.

I don't think any Kiwi would lose any sleep if you don't rate him Dave - almost every Kiwi does and pretty much the rest of the global rugby and rugby league fraternities.   Ezebeth should aspire to be 'bog ordinary' if it means you win every majory rugby trophy on offer.

This recent article sums Brad Thorn up quite nicely - you're entitled to your opinion Dave, but I'm with the overwhelming majority on this one.

It may seem a little over the top to classify a player as a Heineken Cup legend after only three games in the competition, but Brad Thorn is certainly that.

By Declan Whooley

The 37 year-old arrived last year to assist Leinster in their push for a third Heineken Cup win in four years, and though his appearances against Cardiff, Clermont and Ulster mean he has one of the shortest European careers in recent times, his contribution cannot be under-stated.

With one of the most impressive sporting CVs around, Thorn’s contribution was hardly unexpected.

He played ten years rugby league in Australia and was nothing short of a living legend at the Brisbane Broncos, he went on to represent Queensland in the State of Origin Series, while in 1997 he made his international debut for Australia where he lined up against New Zealand in the Tri-Nations. By 2000, he had won his third Premiership for the Broncos and decided to make a return to rugby union.

Success was not long in coming for the towering second-row, helping Canterbury to the NPC Championship in his first season and winning his first of 60 caps for the All Blacks in 2003.

Showing his versatility, he moved back to league for two seasons, collecting more silverware before a move back to the Crusaders, with their Super Rugby title victory in 2008 making him the first ever player to win both the Super League and NRL. He won his third Tri-Nations in 2010 and was an integral part of the All Blacks side that claimed the World Cup on home soil the following year.

When Leinster announced the signing after the pool stages of the 2011/12 season, it was greeted with widespread enthusiasm, but even Brian O’Driscoll has said that the professionalism and dedication he brought in his short stint in Ireland was something that rubbed off on all those around him.

His first appearance in Europe was the home quarter-final tie against Cardiff, an almost complete performance against the Blues where they ran out 34-3 winners, but it was the semi-final appearance in that epic victory away to Clermont that was perhaps his biggest on-field contribution.

That 19-15 win was built on a huge defensive effort, and the line-out operator was central to the game plan. It was for games like this that the Heineken champions decided to fork out big for his big-game temperament. The victory over Ulster was just another medal to his staggering collection of silverware and while he returned soon after to his homeland, it wasn’t to put his feet up.

He has joined the Highlanders and while he missed the season opener through injury, he returned last weekend but was unable to prevent the home side from defeat against the Cheetahs.

You would struggle to find any 38 year-old athlete playing at such a consistently high level anywhere in the world, but then again, Brad Thorn hasn’t been described as a freak – in the best possible sense of the word, of course – for nothing.

A short, but highly distinguished Heineken Cup career.

I'm sorry I cant pretend to rate him, I just never have, much like I never rated Martin Johnson, Steve Borthwick, Johan Muller, Franco v/d Merwe or de Kock Steenkamp to name but some

 Have to say that peer respect trumps our laymans "armchair expert" opinions. 

Peers are the leaders in the game- the likes of Bryan oDriscoll, Mccaw, Habana etc.

I have also heard Bakkies speak very highly of Brad Thorn in the media.

Sometimes when watching rugby matches it is hard to see the contribution of the tight 5(especially when the contribution in the loose in not massive).

It is easier to measure the performance of say a winger or outside center as a supporter(arm chair expert)., just because it is more visibale. 

Being a few Kg's less than someone is nothing, especially if it is something like 4% of the body weight of say a bigger lock of equal fitness. It is not like their are 150Kg lock around that are mobile.

please please please bring back bakkies for the All Black tests, i would gladly accept that as my christmas, LMAO, :oP

one fo my fave botha moments was when he gave the apology  on TV after being suspended (AGAIN) for headbutting cowan. he was very teary eyed and i couldnt help but think of all those politicains who break down sobbing like evangelists after they get busted dtealing or what have u, i found it very fake and couldnt help but think whatever.

@saffex,
meyers record in 2012 was 57% not 67%.

each to their own i guess, but in NZ thorn is rated very very highly, just like bakkies is rated hihgly in SA but considered very overrated in NZ.

i think its crazy u dont rate martin johnson though, and de kock steenkamp filled in the void left by lady elizabeth nicely IMO this year, he was very dependable for the stormers.

sharkbok makes a great point about peers opinions trumping us professional armchair critics, but i havent heard much about bakkies outside of his saffa peers, most opponents have always said he was a hard man for sure, but therewas just as much not so flattering comments too, o_o

Pffffft. This Bakkies infatuation is a wholly domestic phenomena. Most rugby fans outside of the Republic consider Bakkies as nothing more than a strange curiosity, a disturbing abberation best left in the past where unpleasantries belong.  Im still amazed that a spineless thug can be celebrated and worshipped as some kind of inspirational antihero. Bakkies cowardly fetish for bullying smaller and often disadvantaged players ( ie on their backs, trapped in rucks and mauls, from behind) has become the new lofty benchmark upon which all subsequent SA'n "enforcers" (pfffft, i always chuckle when saffas throw that word around) will be judged? Hehehe! 

Please don’t look upon Fat Arse Dave's absurdity as an overall SAFFA viewpoint.

It’s by a long shot not.

Thorn is a class act, has always been a class act and is viewed as such globally.

Fat Arse Dave has amounted to nothing much in life. He lives off the dole in the UK cause he couldn't cut it in South Africa, consumes large quantities of warm beer while clad in a filthy off white vest that barely covers his belly and on a bad day probably smells of sour puke.

I've suggested to him on several occassions that he remove his head from his arse but it seems he prefers the view from there.

In short … the man is not to be taken seriously.

cutup please boet try and not talk utter garbage for once - there's a good fellow. Sounds like you are deeply envious of Dave's life as a successful London lawyer and his country estate.

Can I put this bad temper down to ou rooitwit whipping you at chess?