Can the SA team back row get any worse

Erasmus started with a backrow comprising Kolisi, Du Toit and Vermeulen in the June tests and the failures were -

*   Kolisi at 6;and 

*   while outstanding in the first two tests - Vermeulen was only seen on the team list - his contribution was below par.

Now we have he following from News24:-

"Siya Kolisi's flexibility in the loose trio is something that Springbok coach Rassie Erasmus pointed to during a press conference in Stellenbosch last week.

Now officially the full-time captain of this Bok team, Kolisi started his tenure as skipper by playing three Tests in the No 6 jersey against England in June. 

But, on Saturday, the 27-year-old is expected to shift to the blindside and the No 7 jersey for his side's Rugby Championship opener against Argentina in Durban in a move that will accommodate the return of Francois Louw at No 6. 

That, it seems, is the way that Erasmus is going to go. 

The coach also felt the need to throw in the possibility of Kolisi playing at No 8, but that role is likely to go to the fit-again Warren Whiteley at Kings Park.

In that Stellenbosch press briefing, Erasmus also pointed to the fact that he didn't consider Kolisi's work over the ball to be world class. 

While he is a flexible option in the Bok loose trio, the skipper's Super Rugby form in 2018 did not come without question marks. 

On Saturday, he will have a new role in the side. 

Against England, it was Duane Vermeulen who was tasked with doing most of the work on the ground, but that role will now go to Louw. 

Kolisi will now be able to play with a bit more freedom, able to take more ball and set up rucks rather than working to secure them. 

"We've played together before," Louw said of Kolisi from Durban on Tuesday.

"Siya is just an immensely physical player and I think we play quite a different game. He's been playing in the No 6 jersey in the last few Tests, but I personally feel he is more of a ball carrier.

"He's really quick and he can take those half gaps and run alongside the backs. He's got a big presence on defence were I'm probably a bit more breakdown focused and maybe a bit tighter ... I think our games complement each other. In that way I think we could definitely feed off each other."

Whiteley, meanwhile, will naturally offer a very different set of skills to Vermeulen. 

The Lions skipper, named national captain by Allister Coetzee at the start of the 2017 season, has had a woeful time with injuries. 

He is set to pull on a Bok jersey for the first time since June of that year when he suffered a groin injury against France that would change his career. 

So much has changed since then - the Boks have had three different captains and now have a new coach - but Whiteley will be more determined than ever to remind of his value in a Springbok No 8 jersey. 

"Warren is obviously a fantastic player and a very good lineout option for us when he does play," Louw said.

"I think he is more of a back trapped in a forward's body. He is a really good connection between the forwards and the backs.

"He is good in those outside channels and in the midfield, with ball in hand he is everywhere and the work rate that he brings defensively. He pitches up to games and he's going to give you 80 minutes without taking a step back."

Erasmus will name his side on Thursday, while kick-off on Saturday is at 17:05."

Since he was not a 6 backside - or perhaps he was - the only thing that Erasmus can do is to move him to 7 - with very little improvement on his June performances expected.   Vermeulen think that he can say when he will play test cricket and when not.   That is unacceptable and he wants more or less a free pass to the WC next year,  I believe either he plays in the remaining tests for the Springboks before the WC.  As far a I could make out  - there are only 12 tests to be played (6 in the RC - 2018, 3 on the EOYT and 3 in the TC 2019).   

The situation is complicated further by the fact that Louw is effectively replacing Vermeulen in some aspects of play - In two of three latest tests of Vermeulen he was top class, whist Louw in all tests played since 2015 and even in that year was not a live wire and effectively average to poor.   He has a serious pace problem and get to breakdown points too late to be effective and if he then tries to make turnovers he gets penalized. 

So will the 6,7 and 8 be better than the one used in June 2019.   I think not and that could be again the weak link in the team - even weaker than the one used in 2016 and 2017 as well.   Louw is no 6 and never was top class - at this stage he is likely t o be another over-the-hill dud.

 .     

Mike, it will definitely be better than the team used in June 2019, because that team does not exist . Just kidding, I know what you mean. Look Vermeulen is not in the squad, so you can bet your bottom dollar the starting loosies will be Louw, Kolisi and Whiteley. Like it or not. I don't know what to make of this trio. They could surprise us a bit, but there is definitely no out and out fetcher, and that is a problem. Marx will help plug that gap, but we need a player like Jaco Kriel in there as well. I still think our biggest problem is in the midfield. Our center options, regardless of which ones eventually land up starting, are weak.  

We already know who the starters are going to be, but it'll be interesting to see if they go with Cyle Brink or Marco Van Staden on the bench? Especially Van Staden could do some damage as far as fetching is concerned. 

Louw is an out an out fetcher, Blue. We'll have to see how much puff he still has left, of course. Would like to see Van Staden get a go sometime, Louw won't last forever and our #6 cupboard is pretty bare.

When last did Louw do any fetching in tests?   The tests he played in he is penalized regularly because his pace-deficiency cause him to be late at breakdowns.   Good for slow NH fields - below par in SH conditions. .  

Mozart

Instead of writing muck why not comment on Vermeulen deciding not to play in the RC?

And why refer only to tackling stats of Vermeulen and hiding away from quoting other stats as well.  As per normal he will not quote those because they are bloody dismal. 

Talking about disinformation I am opposed to learning that from you and still think you are the master in that - selective stats and disinformation on games are your special qualities. ,   

By the way Louw made the second most take-overs in the 2015WC played where?   Have you read what I said bout slow NH conditions - dumbo?   His last few tests were dismal - instead of fetching he gave away penalties.     

Mozart

Instead of writing muck why not comment on Vermeulen deciding not to play in the RC?

And why refer only to tackling stats of Vermeulen and hiding away from quoting other stats as well.  As per normal he will not quote those because they are bloody dismal. 

Talking about disinformation I am opposed to learning that from you and still think you are the master in that - selective stats and disinformation on games are your special qualities. ,   

By the way Louw made the second most take-overs in the 2015WC played where?   Have you read what I said a bout slow NH conditions - dumbo?   His last few tests were dismal - instead of fetching he gave away penalties.     

Mozter, the last world cup was a long time ago. Louw will make one or maybe two steals in a game, but he is not the player he was back then, and certainly not the player he was when he burst onto the scene. I would describe him as solid. Look, I am not against Louw, but when you compare his ability to steal to players like Pocock, Marx, Brussouw etc...then no, he is not an out and out fetcher. 

The loose forwards are still better than the wings and centres. We will not be able to play through our backs, but rely on our runners off 9 and set pieces. If our forwards are outmatched, we are going to have major problems. Louw will help us compete on the ground. However, where are the ball carriers? Kolisi is not going to be that guy. I seriously doubt it. We're back to 2014 and Coetzee (who was a much better player than Kolisi).

You two live in a different universe.    The WC was three years ago when Louw  was supposed to be in his prime.   Secondly the WC was played in England where the playing conditions favour sower players.    In the subsequent tests Louw was more noted for donating penalties than fir making turnovers,

I know we can only expect ridiculous rubbish from you since you are living in the past - but this is another case where you favour over-the-hill players.

You are the one living in the past Clever Mike. You'll be talking about Morné, Jake and Frans et al well into the 2050s. Maybe by then, you'll have learnt how to count.

Balls - you are changing the subject BSter.   I clearly indicated the position of Louw insofar as turnovers are concerned and was aware of the WC stats already because the hypocritical AgainBS gave them under anther thread,   He is just like you - use stats selectively and not comprehensively - and then attack other  members for using stats claiming that stats are meaningless.      

I will deal with three topics that you did not respond to at all. namely -

*   the fact that Louw is pace-deficient and the deficiency is less on the slow NH fields where the WC in 2015 were payed;

*   that during the subsequent test played in the SH - Louw was less effective in tests played on the faster SH fields and was more noted for giving away penalties than making tirnovers or even ball protection; and

*   the world cup was three years ago when Louw was still in his prime and at his age his more recent performances showed the normal tendency to perform less effectively in declining performance years.

That set of loosies fail to inspire, I'm not a fan of Whiteley or Kolisi and Louw….tick tock tick.....

AgainBSter

It is not me who constantly who refer back to past players  and lamenting deficiencies in present players - as well as praising players who under-performed during the Meyer era who failed on test level and even on Super Rugby level.

You and your co-morons are onto me for making remarks about w hat happened in the past and then used disinformation to support spurious claims on your part.   You still support useless players like Francois Steyn for selection despite the BS performances on Super Rugby level in 2014 and 2015.

Your normally baseless attacks on certain players are so prejudiced is not only predictable - but also laughable.   What is even funnier is your ignorance on player performances and the creation of pipe dreams about what they actually achieved when playing according to imaginary game plans.        

I think the best combination we could field right now, politics aside, would be Vermeulen at 8, Kriel at 6, and at 7....actually, I can't really think of anyone. A big bruiser like Juan Smith or Schalk would be perfect, but we don't have anyone at the moment. Kolisi is a strong defender and fast, but a bit too small. The Du Preez's have the size and athleticism, but lack the skills. I'm actually stumped. I guess Louw it would have to be.  

Who'd have imagined that one day we'd have no ball carrying loose forwards. It brings a great dishonour to the badge (not the posey on the left). 

In a perfect world, 8.Thor and 6.Louw. 7? What's Schalk up to? Coetzee? I'm reluctant to hand out a free cap to a rookie. 

It's a sad state of affairs for a country that's consistently fielded world class loosies.

AgainBSter 

This is much coming from you.  Who are you referring to as having been ball carrying loosies?  Louw is poor in ball carrying, defense and ball protection and recovery and Vermeulen has opted out of the RC and apparently want to pick and choose which tests.   As per normal writing of BS is your special ability. .     

Louw has never been a ball carrier.

Beeno

The problem is that we do have loosies available - but they are not selected and in their place both Meyer and Coetzee had preference for useless loosies.   That always was the weakest sport in the Springbok team and unless acted upon will remain as such.       

Mike, how do you always manage to bring Meyer and Coetzee into the discussion? They have absolutely nothing to do with it. This discussion is about the CURRENT loose trio. 

Mike..you need to let that historic bullshit go. Yo ur life will be much less stressful. 

Meyer's loose forwards were, at one point, the most effective in world rugby. Of course, they didn't feature the names you'd like, so they don't pass your criteria for being good, in spite of results. The weakest aspect of the team since 2012 has been centre, particularly 13. We don't have one outside centre worthy of the name in all the country. That's pathetic. 

If Louw can provide 60% of what he was under under Meyer, he'll upgrade the team. However, who are thee great ball carriers that you speak of? I don't see them. 

One has to hear the hard yard man fib about Alberts - making on average 2.2 meters per carry and virtually never breaking tackle s and being extra clumsy - make for the exposing of the fib.

Good hands based on one incident in one test - that being career-defining. as per normal with the moron.

No Mozart  try again - you are never convincing when spreading false and prejudiced info.   

How is a player supposed to make lots of metres and breaks when carrying into the heart do the defence, the most congested areas of the field? You see what happens when you watch stats but not the game? You lose appreciation for what these numbers actually refer to. Alberts has yet to be surpassed by another Bok forward. He supplied momentum. Something we've lacked since his injury woes. There was Flip of course, why he fell out of the equation is a mystery. He punished New Zealand every game he played against them. Immensely powerful. You seem to prefer candy floss forwards who look for space to pad out their stats. 

Alberts didn't need variation. His physicality guaranteed that the defence head to mark him carefully and in numbers. His presence alone gave the backs more space. He was tremendous in 2012 and 2013 (the Boks scoring 47 tries in 12 tests in 2013). This is what people like Clever Mike fail to understand, how the player functioned in the game plan. Of course, Clever Mike has stated in no uncertain terms that Meyer sent his players onto the field without any instructions. So he'll aggressively deny what I've said. In the end, when Alberts had injury problems, the Boks began to struggle. Meyer tried to fill the void with Coetzee and even Steph, but it didn't work. The tandem of Thor and Alberts was particularly destructive. We haven't had anything remotely close to that again. Kolisi is more like the days of Krige. 

In 2013 the Boks were almost unstoppable with Louw, Alberts and Duane. At the breakdown and ball in hand, and in the set pieces. In 2014, the trouble started against Argentina. This was where we had no Alberts. We lacked a physical ball carrier. Coetzee tried, but failed to fill the void. Throughout the Rugby Championship we struggled to find that primary carrier and it affected our breakdown presence. There is definitely a correlation. In 2015 the same problem persisted. Alberts was at that point a shadow of himself, so Meyer experimented with a three man fletcher approach, something similar to what Australia had for many years with Waugh, Smith et al. Brussow was magnificent, and we did dominate the breakdown, but where was that ball carrier? It's something that has continued to trouble the Boks until present day. We beat New Zealand, yes, but we struggled elsewhere. In 2014 we had 2 tests were we found some kind of balance at the Breakdown. That approach would later be exposed up north. Anyway you slice it, Alberts was a significant generator of momentum. He also allowed the backs to play underneath and create space. His presence kept the interior defenders from fanning out. It created all kinds of problems.

Flip, he always outplayed the All Black forwards. He had many very big performances. He was, sadly, not a media darling. The power of the media to carry a player is such that it can get a very inadequate player 50 tests, easily. Flip was immense on that 2013 EOYT. I haven't seen a Bok side with that kind of power ever again. Duane, Alberts, Flip, Bismarck and Bakkies. It was far too much to handle. 

Ball carrier averaging 2.2 meters per carry.   What a farce.   Carry on dreaming up BS - it is hilarious - almost on par with your Morne dreams.    

It can definitively grow worse. Contrary to SA mines, the poverty of SA rugby knows no bottom.

The sooner SA rugby is terminated, the better it is. Or it will spoil other rugbys.

Save rugby over the world, terminate SA rugby.