Cane is going to outplay Bok Fat boys (The Stats Don't Lie: All Blacks v Wobblies)

By Tracey Nelson

All Blacks v Wallabies (41-33)

The All Blacks have equalled their record of 30 consecutive home wins (set between 2003 and 2008), while the Wallabies managed to score their highest number of points in New Zealand - surpassing the 30 points they scored at Eden Park back in 1978.

Turnovers cost the Wallabies, particularly when it came to handling errors with a total of 13. Of those, 10 were knock-ons with 5 occurring in the first quarter of the match alone.

By contrast, the All Blacks only made 6 handling errors that resulted in a turnover of possession with just 3 being knock-ons. While their first knock-on came in the opening seconds of the match when Sam Cane failed to catch the kick-off, their next knock-on did not occur until the 70th minute while the third came in the 80th minute.

The Wallabies only made 12 kicks from hand in this game, and just two in the first half (both of which were clearing kicks from their 22). The All Blacks made a total of 25 kicks from hand, with 8 being defensive clearing kicks from their 22.

The All Blacks marginally won the battle of the breakdown, winning three clean turnovers in the tackle to Sam Cane, Brodie Retallick, and Beauden Barrett, with Retallick also winning a penalty when Michael Hooper failed to release the ball post-tackle. The Wallabies managed just one clean tackle turnover to Tevita Kuridrani, while Hooper and Adam Ashley-Cooper secured penalties for their team in the tackle.

The All Blacks made 125 tackles and 25 assists, and missed 18 tackles. The majority of those tackles had to be made in the first and last quarters of the match (44 and 50 respectively). Of the 18 missed tackles, 10 of those came in the last quarter.

Sam Cane was the top tackler in the match with 15 tackles, 5 assists and no misses. Ma'a Nonu was the next best of the All Blacks with 14 tackles and 4 assists, followed by Sam Whitelock with 11 tackles and 2 assists. Nonu and Israel Dagg missed the most tackles with 3 each.

The Wallabies had to make 102 tackles and missed 21. Michael Hooper was their top tackler with 15 tackles, followed by Ben Mowen and Ben McCalman both with 10. Ben Alexander, Quade Cooper, and Adam Ashley-Cooper all missed 3 tackles each.

Sam Whitelock made the most breakdown arrivals in this test, being in the first three on 24 occasions. He was backed up by Keven Mealamu with 22 arrivals, Tony Woodcock with 21, and Sam Cane with 18.

Sam Cane made the most ball carries for the All Blacks, making 36 metres with his 10. Liam Messam was the next best with 8 carries for 76 metres, followed by Kieran Read with 8 carries for 63 metres.

The All Blacks conceded 8 penalties and the Wallabies 10, with Sam Cane and Michael Hooper being the most penalised players with 3 each.

There were 18 starts of play (kick-offs) in this test match, and the All Blacks won possession from 14 of them. Of those, 9 were receipts from Australia's re-starts while 5 were wins from their own re-starts.

Just_win

I have no argument on the issue of Cane - he is a special talent with speed thrown in as well.   At this stage Cane to my mind is the top-rated flank forward of the AB's.

I also agree that our loose forwards are sub-par - with Alberts as the worst of the three.   That much I have said before games and repeated it again and again.   We have counters for players like Cane as is evidenced by the following stats where they played against each other:-

In the above game Labuchagne's stats in a way over-shadowed Canes by a significant margin - except for the tackle stats where Cane made 3 more tackles - probably due to the fact that Cane is an open-sider and Labuschagne a blind-sider - but Labuscgane was better in ball carries and won four line-outs - one on the Chief's throw-in against the nil contribution by Cane in line outs. 

I would say that Labuscgane played in a losing team with a serious deficiency in performance in the second half - where the steam ran out of the Cheetahs.

That being said there is a problem in what I call "serious selection deficiency" on the part of Meyer in selecting loosies.   He seems to prefer the immobile heavies in that position and as long as that happens - the Springboks will always be in the mess insofar as loosie play is concerned and not be competitive. 

My personal choices for loosies are Louw, Labuschagne and Botha and that combination would be enough to eliminate most of the threats by players like Messm, Read and Cane.   The present combination will do nothing of the kind.

Cleancut

Are you sure about muscles in the case of Alberts?  I mean there is very little "muscle" in his brain box or very little brain matter either. 

I never run down Vermeulen - he is excellent - but I think Botha will be a better proposition than he is  in a fast moving game.  Vermeulen's only problem is he is rather slower than for instance a player like Read.

Cleancut

I think that pace in a loosie is important to get around the field and play a more comprehensive game.   Our present loosies have the following capacities:-

*   They can tackle well around the fringes and in traffic

*   They carry balls in traffic

*   They are dedicated to play  in tight phases of the game.

In essence their deficiencies and in particular Alberts are:-

*   Defence is non-existent wider out and defence stats confirm that - even weak in cases such as the missed tackles in the case of Alberts leading to two Samoan tries and his poor tackle effort on Read at Ellis Park.  On the whole very low tackle stats compared to other loosies.  

*   There role in line outs is minimal and they never really are an alternative line out option.

*   Ball carries in open play is rare and in most cases non-existent.   In the whole of RC they rarely combine with the backline in attacking play - the only notable exceptions were in the Habana tries at Ellis Park - but in other tests it never happened.

*   In ball carries they tend to isolate themselves - resulting in turnovers and penalties

*   They are virtually no factor in breakdown ball recovery and rarely force ball turnovers - in fact they seem to be clumsy like Tomas claimed in one of his analysis.

*   They in general neither assist the backline in either attacking or defending aspects of the play, because of the low mobility factor.

The above are in the main the rest of what is expected from loose forwards - more positives than negatives is in evidence.  

I rate Vermeulen highly - but not for his speed around the park - he definitely is slower than Read and that was proven time and time again.   However, I said that I value him highly and you are correct about some elements of the game - compared to Read.    I do think that Louw is acceptable - but do not rate Alberts at all - he is the weakest of the three loosie and that comes out clearly time and again.  He failed in most of the categories relating to performances in the functions field mentioned above.

You are entitled to your opinion on the loosies - but I think we will forever be rated number 2 in the world and never be competitive on a wider basis - unless we become more competitive in the back row formation.  Performance and statistical data all confirm that our loosies are constantly below the mark set by loosies of opposing teams.  That should not be the case ever and is is entirely due to the limitations our loosies have in competing outside of the fringes and even in traffic - as well as in breakdown ball recovery.

Looking only at the RC - and also at the games last year - the above his been substantiated time and time again.             

I have no problem with Vermeulen, but the other two back three positions are not at the same standard. However, Vermeulen is not on the same level as Read for overall effectiveness and impact in a test match.

Overall your pack does not have the same skill level or mobility (on average) as the ABs, Ethzebeth is an excpetion.

So Vermeulen’s now a plodder, huh??

He’s unable to keep up with Read or anyone else … doesn’t defend well at all and has very poor tackle stats … knows nothing about cross cover defense … isn’t used as a line-out option at all …

doesn’t carry the ball effectively enough … is never part of winning ball on the deck nor does he contribute to someone else winning turnover ball …

is never involved in the maul … gets no go forward momentum and is never a part of a backline attack … and when he does get the occasional attack going, heaven forbid, he isolates himself, turning ball over and giving masses of penalties away.

Damn Mike … sounds to me this fucker is a nightmare. What the hell's he doing in the Bok starting 15 ?

Strange how the rest of the world hold him in high regard. Why is that, Mike? Maybe they haven’t noticed all these deficiencies in him. Do you think that could be it?

Hmmmmm??

Or could it be that you’re a friggin liar. A fabricator second only to Stupid? One who’s prepared to stoop to a level lower than shark shit so that he can justify his ignorant picks?

Hmmmmmmm??

What you think? Could that possibly be it … just maybe … perhaps?

Everyone knows you want Labuschagne in … so you conjure Alberts’ deficiencies and add your own twist to it … to justify your pick.

Now I guess it’s Vermeulen’s turn, huh? … isn’t it Mike … ??? You gotta get Botha in so why not fabricate some bull shit and pin it on Vermeulen ... not forgetting your twist to it of course ... that should justify your pick ... isn't that right Mike?

I wonder … who’s next, Mike?

I can quite honestly tell you that the above post addressed to me is probably the worst piece of rubbish I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Cleancut

You must be smoking something and not reading what I wrote and distorting it in any event.  I said that ball carries have problems - in traffic it is OK - but only one one occasion throughout he RC did Vermeulen link up with backline players in an attack and in one case Louw.  That is not good enough - since they do not carry balls in space as a rule.  In traffic their carries is good enough - but they also isolate themselves at times  in the process. 

If you look again at all the tests you would get ample proof on what I wrote.  You hammer on about Vermeulen - whom I said is by far the best three of our loosies and whom I also said I rate highly - and lose complete sight of the other two.  That is what is really funny.   To say he is not on par speedwise with Read and Cane is also a fact and not a fabrication.  That issue would apply in tests where I think Botha would b a better counter for the AB loosies.  If you believe otherwise you are at liberty to do so.

Alberts is a prop masquerading as a loosie.  He misses crucial tackles routinely and he also play no role in virtually all of the above functions.  His limited ball carries is totally ineffective and he is probably statistically the worst loosie in the SH.   Go and check the stats and you would find what I said exactly.  Against a team like the AB's he is a serious handicap.   In the Ellispark test he punished us by being ineffective in two cases where the AB's scored try  - once with an extremely tackle attempt on Read and the second one because as the nearest player to the tackled Aaron Smith he did not even try to recover the breakdown ball - but fell over his feet - clumsy as hell.  The two missed tackles against the  Samoans in their tries  scored against the Boks are also facts - not fiction.

I said that Labuschagne is an effective counter for the AB loosies and that has been proven by stats as well.   Labuschagne is a much better loosie in all facets of the functions required from loosies than Alberts would ever be.  That is a fact as well and not a fabrication.  

I deal in postings really with facts - not rubbish and general impressions.  I do at times consult the Statistical data as per ESPN scrum and look at things from that perspective as well.  I do not fabricate things and am honest about performances.

Do not try the same type of things on me that you do with Saffex - when I differ from members I said so and when severely provoked sometimes retaliated in writing - but I try to keep discussions free from "shit". 

By the way I assume that in the next fantasy competition you would bank on Alberts as your key loosie.       

Listen up you friggin horses ass … what is it with ”get lost” that you don’t understand?

I have read some of the lengthy posts you call factual and am in no mood to go round and round discussing the same boring subject over and over with an ignorant lying pensioner who has nothing but this MB to wile away his time.

I realize you consider yourself a bit of an intellectual as well an authority on rugby, hence the name I guess, however I do not share that opinion. Personally I think it's just something else you’ve conjured to make yourself feel better. 

You’ve shown yourself up time after time as a complete ignoramus, copying other posters ideas and making them your own. I suppose you think it's gone unnoticed, huh?

You’ve been caught in a lie several times over and with your latest “factual” rendition, me thinks I'd rather have root canal done than continue a pointless, monotonous conversation that stimulates me intellectually about as much as friggin pot plant does.

Feel free to now verbally bash me about.

Clean Cut

The discussion is pointless - one cannot discuss something with a plank who do not look at facts and performances as a basis for discussion - but only mindless generalities without any substance.

I like you as a member - but do not feel obliged to agree with you every time.  So lets leave this discussion and forget about it.

 Polyboy, you are right. You do but its not Cane. Look no further than Ardie Savea. He is unbelievably strong, defends like a trojan and has the running game of his brother on the wing. Unbelievably talented and energetic kid. Never far away from the action and thats how you measure a great 7 from a good 7.

I see he is travelling with the AB's as a non-registered member but just to gain experience. Duno why. He is better than Cane now and he has the game that wont fail him on international level right now. Kid is a freak. Just count how many times the commentators mention his name in a game. He gets more mention in 10mins than most players get all game and by the 70th min, he looks more energetic than any other oke on the park.

He is a scary prospect because he doesnt seem to be getting "found out" by opposition teams and just keeps putting in complete performances. Often the commentators dont have anything more to say about him because they mention his name so much, it sounds obsessive.

Scary prospect in Cane, meh...Not so much. Latimer is better and Dave Rennie knows that!

boklogic

Ardie Savea was very good as Captain in the Under 20 WC and he played for the Hurricanes in two Super 15 games and then vanished from the scene - playing under 20 rugby.  He was an absolute wizard in the first Super 15 game - but less effective in the second one.  Everyone on site was talking  about him  at the time.

Be it as it may - he is probably been groomed to become an AB and you may be right about him being the choice opensider ahead of Cane - but Hansen is almost as conservative as Meyer and will not start with him until McCaw retires after the next WC.  Then the choice would be between him and Cane for the 7 position.

Be it as it may - our loosie position is not sound on the highest level - but we also have some better ones on the sidelines than we have in the Springbok team at present - Vermeulen is good, Louw above average - but Alberts is the pits. 

 Well JW, if he can do what he does now on the international stage, he is going to change what we all think we know about a no 7 (6 in SA).

I must becareful not to talk him up too much because we all know international rugby is different to anything else out there but Savea has performed well on every level so far. Far superior to that of Cane too even in the ITM cup.

He just goes all day and like his boet, is unbelievably strong! He had a massive game in the semi for Wellington, they pull him off around 70mins prob to not risk him for the final and he looked like he had not broken a sweat. Another injury forced him back onto the park and you could see thats where he wanted to be till the end.

That kid is the real deal. Pace, strength, passion, fitness, skill, ability to be in the right place at the right time and pop up to score tries. Unbelievable. Treat him well NZL. I could be wrong but I am picking him to be the difference when Wellington host the Cantabs!

Having said all that, he is still not good enough to make the Boks team. He should walk the AB's team though ;-)

I’m not the arse fabricating things, Mike … you are … fabrications you refer to as “facts” merely to justify your absurdity.

Perhaps you should re-read your post and see who’s generalizing … using words like “virtually” and “in general” tells me you’re not quite sure of your so called facts.

It’s all a thumb suck as is the rest of your drivel.

Face it DumbMike … your clueless and the only way you can pass the mark on the MB is to lie and to conjure “facts” that do not exist.

For your information, I have scored substantial points using Willem Alberts in Fantasy rugby before.

And yes, I think using the the useless "plodder" Vermeulen in next year's Fantasy would be a very good pick to make.

Clean Cut

What happened to you - why the sudden hate campaign against me?   Merely because I differ from you on the Alberts issue?

Alberts is not a loosie of substance - whether you like I or not - the bloody bugger - together with Morne cost us a win at Ellis Park - whether you want to believe it or not.  And you completely misread what I said about Vermeulen - I never said he was a plodder - I said he was slower than Read - and that also is a fact.

Now you turn around and said something I wrote about Ardie Savea.   I said he played very well in the Junior WC and I think he was the Player of the year in that competition - if my memory is correct.   I also said he played in two Super 15 games for the Hurricanes - in the first one he was  very good - in the second one not so.   I said he is probably on the radar for selection by the AB's after the next WC. 

I went further and started off very positive about Cane and said he and  Savea may in future be contending for the number 7 jersey.

Those are factual  issues - that you cannot just make deductions and then start spouting rubbish about what I said and what I did not say.    Please - if you read what I wrote - do not quote me out of context and make wild statements.   Don't descend to the level of Mozart and Saffex - they are bad enough as it is.

I think in the Super 15 I did better with Labuschagne as banker in the fantasy competitions as a loosie than with anybody else - so lets laugh about it and forget about the bitterness.   

What did I fabricate or lie about?   Did Alberts miss the tackle on Read that set up the Ben Smith try?  Did he fell over his own feet  - when he should have tried to get the ball after the Aaron Smith tackle - when he was the nearest player to Smith and there was a chance of a turnover before the Messam try - or did he not?   Did he miss a tackle and too late to make another tackle when the Samoans scored their two tries against the Springboks?   Does he do anything in breakdown ball recovery ever?   Those are facts confirm by stats and by viewing of games and all factual.  

Secondly is Read not speedier than Vermeulen?  Did all three loosies in the Aussie test not gave away penalties because they isolated themselves and then hung onto the ball?

I can go on and say that if I am lying or fabricating facts then the ESPN scrum stats are also lying and fabricating facts - you can easily check it up if you do not believe me.

I am not a liar and fabricator of facts - I do my homework before postings.   You can state your case - but personal attacks always means you do not have the facts that support your allegations.   Foul mouth attacks on me personally won't enhance your arguments either.  

Those are not lies or fabrications they are facts of life.   

Boklogic

The following happened while Alberts was on the field of play in the Ellis Park test and that to my mind was enough damage done:-

*   H missed the tackle on Read which ultimately resulted in the Ben Smith try - fact not fiction.

*   He was nearest to Aaron Smith and in an excellent position to effect a ball turnover - instead he fell over his own feet and the AB's retained possession resulting in Messam's first try.

Alberts is a very clumsy player and even Tomas said he is too clumsy to recover balls in breakdown situations or cause turnovers in possession.   The second incident definitely confirmed that statement of his.  I believe the above two examples caused major damage to the Springbok chances of winning at Ellis Park.

I do not hate any player - but I do not like sub-par players and do not condone poor play on the part of any players.  If a player come short in any department of loosie play - then anybody is entitled to state his opinion on the issue.   Alberts really is the weak link in the loosie set up of the Springboks and that is factual if you look at overall expectant play from a loosie.   He never recovered balls in breakdown situations - his tackling is limited to players in traffic (he never makes a tackle on anybody outside of the fringes) and his line out performance in all tests played this year amounted to 2 line-out takes.   His ball carries is ineffective with limited gain for the Springboks - besides which in games where he is penalized the penalties were all because of immobility and hanging onto the ball after he isolated himself.  He never participates in any attacking move  where the forwards and backline players combine in carrying the ball - in one such case where he tried to do that, he knocked on the ball.

For me he is a player with far too many serious limitations in what he does on the field of play.   Most of the above problems stem from lack of mobility and clumsiness in execution.   In essence he performs the functions expected from a tight five player and not from a loosie.

If you doubt what I wrote here - you are welcome to check the stats provided under ESPN scrum and you would find the above is factually correct - either that, or you can view games again and see whether my statements are correct or not .