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FORUM / RUGBY /  Carol Jane says SA dont use wings properly

Carol Jane says SA dont use wings properly

Started by Beeno124 REPLIES786 VIEWS· 27 Feb 2014, 09:30
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Feb 2014, 09:30
#1
27 Feb 2014, 09:30#1

Ex Rugby Mag


Hurricanes and All Blacks winger Carol Jane believes that South African wings are often not used to full effect, writes JEREMY PROOME. (Have to agree with Carol)

Speaking with SARugbymag.co.za, Jane had high praise for his counterparts from the Republic, but feels that the South African style of play often closes the opportunities to unleash their more potent runners.

South Africa has got really good wings, but they don’t seem to use them properly. They like to play the kicking game, but they should try to get the ball into the hands of their wingers and put them into some space.’ (THis elementary fact has escaped some of the oaks coaching here - thanks Carol for speaking up)

Jane mentioned Gio Aplon, who he will likely line up against on Friday at Newlands, and the 31-year-old World Cup winner is aware that he has a tough task at hand this weekend.

Gio really likes to run and is one of the fastest guys around, so you’ve got to be on top of your defence when marking him.'

Jane made a long-awaited comeback to the All Blacks at the end of last year following a knee injury, and despite the 27-9 defeat to the Sharks, his return to Super Rugby has been an individual milestone.

Mentally, I’m definitely over my injury, and I’m here to play rugby, so that’s what my focus is now.

‘The biggest challenges, returning to the field, are only partially physical; it’s mostly mental. If you do the rehab and follow what the doctors tell you then you should be able to get through your injury. And if you’re ready mentally, then you’ll know when you’re up for the physical contact and full running again.’

Good luck Carol but not when playing the Mighty Stormers

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Feb 2014, 10:24
#2
27 Feb 2014, 10:24#2

Beeno


There never was a truer statement made by a Rugby player of the anility of Jane.   He knows what he is talking about. 


Lets take the backline players since 2012.   Initially we started with -


 *   the standing to deep in the pocket and donkey kicking Morne Steyn at 10; and

 *   the crashballing Witless Hog at 12.


Unless those two were cut out - like in the case of Habana's try at Dunedin - the wings would never ever see a ball.


Then the two got changed for Goosen and Taute.   The Pretoria test of 2013 was a vast improvement in that respect - even though Taute himself did everything in his power to ensure that the ball never reach a wing either.


In the EOYT tests -  Lambie tried to copy Steyn as a kicking flyhalf as per instruction from Meyer in both the Irish and Scottish test.   The pooblem was enhanced by having Taute and De Jongh at 13 in the Ireland and Scotland test.   Both are useless in ball distribution.   The Twickenham test is a case where Meyer himself said that Lambie must play his natural game - but when he passed the ball they found that De Jongh has gone AWOL and Kirchner ended up with the ball - he does not pass balls either - so the few backline movements ended there.


In 2013  Meyer told Steyn to stand flatter and pass the ball more often - especially in the case of breakdown ball recovery.  The result was in fact better since another  element was added - namely Willie le Roux.  


However, that did not solve the problem in its entirety -  we lack some thinking ability amongst our centers - and it turns out that only De Villiers has been using that.   Engelbrecht mostly ran straight at defenders and showed no rugby nous trying to create space for other players - especially the wings - to perform.   Meyer then tried Fourie - but he was a flop - especially in attacking backline play.


Jane's remarks followed the match on Saturday - where a really unique performance of stupidity was shown by Witless Hog Steyn - I have never seen a worse example of unthinking center play in my life.   White does not criticize his players in public - but he made a remark about the passing game of players - which indicated that he was seriously upset with in particular Witless Hog.


Wings can only perform if they get balls and especially get them in open space - the space to be created by players inside of them.   Our problem is that other than De Villiers the centers especially run straight at the opposition defender - which is stupid.   Centers - and other players - shuld aim their run at the gap between the two opposing centers or other players  - which could unbalance the opposition defence by the outside defender shifting in slightly cover the ball carrying player.   


This presents another problem - a player should pass the ball just before being tackled or if a player is in the process of being tackled, he should be able to off-load balls effectively to the player who by then could have some space to operate in.  The number of centers and flyhalfs capavale of doing the latter - you can count on the fingers of one hand.


We only have De Villiers and De Allende as proven cases - with Ebersohn and Jordaan showing that in a number of games they played in  (the jury is still out iro Serfontein).  For the rest there is one big zero.  The distribution capacity of players such as Engelbrecht, De Jongh, and Witless Hog is either totally absent from normal usage - or in the case of effective off-loading of balls totally absent.


Coaches can correct the technical problems in performance - but they cannot correct the instinctive thinking abilities of players - they either have it or they don't,  Unfortunately too many of our half backs and midfield players does not have the instinct and ability to read games properly - so our wings suffer badly   


       

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
27 Feb 2014, 10:47
#3
27 Feb 2014, 10:47#3

Jane is not back to his best yet but he can't be far off, this weekend could be big one for him against the poor hapless stormers. No risk for the Canes as all the pressure is on the stormers, playing at home & against one of our weaker teams.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Feb 2014, 12:21
#4
27 Feb 2014, 12:21#4
 What a boring load of typical Cleverdrol BS.

"*   the crashballing Witless Hog at 12."

Frans Steyn only played in 6 tests since the start of 2012.

In the first test, coincidently, there were two tries. Guess who scored them? Jean de Villiers (at no 13, on Frans Steyn's outside) and the other one was scored by Morne Steyn.

In the second test, the "crashballing Witless Hog" did indeed run more often than pass the ball. However, in the 11 times that he did run the ball, he beat three defenders and made 4 offloads, so there goes your crashballing BS out the window for that test. In fact, the offloads were the most by any of the Bok players in that test. The three defenders that he beat was on par with the 3 by JPP, which was higher than the count for the rest of the backline. The only other backline players who beat defenders in that game was Francois Hougaardt and......... wait for it............ Morne Steyn. The other players who beat three or more defenders were topscorer Bismarck and, once again, wait for it ....................... Willem Alberts.

On the third test he was a bit "quite", I would say. He still passed the ball 4 out of the 11 times that he received it.

In his fourth test, he was back to almost 50/50 between passed and ran balls, with 7 passed and 8 ran. He was, once again, amongst the top "defender beaters" in the backline and was only beaten by Hougaardt who had four. He and  Mvovo had 2 and the rest had one each, bar Morne who had none. He, Hougaard and JDV were the only ones who made any off-loads.

His fifth test of 2012 was similar to his second.

His 6th test of 2012 was the Dunedin one against NZ. He passed the ball 4 times  and ran it 7 times. So, at first glance he was "crashballing" again. Or was he? Nope,he wasn't because made one clean break, beat 5 defenders (the most by any Bok player) and made one off-load.

Frans Steyn did not play in 2013. So, my advice is that you adjust your little "theory" and remove your so-called "Witless Crashballing  Hog" from the equation because you have no flippin clue. It is in any case poor form to call any Springbok player a pig, albeit a pig by another name.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Feb 2014, 13:46
#5
27 Feb 2014, 13:46#5

 Dofdoos


You have it wrong all the time and more so with you above history of Frans Steyn's contributions to the 2012 tests. 


Lets look at the stats:-


Balls Handled by Steyn  -   91

Balls kicked                  -     9 

Balls Passed                 -    34

Balls kept (crashballs)  -     49 



Percentage kicked         -     10,8%

Percentage balls passed -     37,4%

Percentage Crashballs   -      51,8%


He only passed 37,4% of the balls he received to players outside of him,   He made 6 kicks of which 5 was aimless and 2 relieving kicks made from bear the tryline - rolled along the ground and put the whole Springbok side off-side resulting in points for the opposition. 


The tries scored mentioned by you are as follows - the De Villiers try did not follow after a pass of the ball by Witless Hogg.   The other issue you make hay about is off-loads,   The question is how effective were those off-loads?   His off-loads consists of dropping the ball behind him and hoping somebody from his side would pick it up.


Witless Hog played only a few fames and he was bloody useless and adter 4 Suoer 15 games relegated to the bench - for very good reasons I may add.


Now lets look at the last to Super 15 games - the second one caused me to call him Witless Hog:-


Steyn 0/1 0 2/6/9 25 0 3 0 2 7/1 0/0 1 0/0


Steyn 0/0 0 2/5/11 16 0 2 2 3 5/2 0/0 2 0/0


You can work out the percentages yourself -   and White did too and mentioned passing as a problem after the last match.


Passing 5 balls  out of 18 handled - only 1 on those to a player outside of him - is fucked up play and showed that Witless Hog is appropriately named and the name will stay until he starts playing thinking rugby - which I have grave doubts about.


By the way the Sharks game next week will show whether there is an improvement - I doubt not that here will be after White has spoken to him.

                    -  

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
27 Feb 2014, 13:53
#6
27 Feb 2014, 13:53#6
CJ says SA dosent use their wings properly???

and a cow goes moo,

tell us something we dont know jane,
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Feb 2014, 14:36
#7
27 Feb 2014, 14:36#7
 Ou Clever Mike, I just broke it down for you test by test. Now get real or piss off. Only in your warped mind can a player crashball every ball and, at the same time, beat a defender as well. Now go play with your toys.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
27 Feb 2014, 14:47
#8
27 Feb 2014, 14:47#8
Exactly sasuke! Lets use Habana as an example, one the best, if not THE best winger in the world (or he was a little while ago). He has showcased his talent countless times for both club and country, but most of the tries that he will be remembered for, are ones that he created out of nothing. Very often good backline play had nothing to do with his try scoring success. I reckon the Stormers restrictive style of play nearly cost him his career because he was so bogged down by their style of play, that he tried to do too much on his own and landed up looking like a clumsy glory boy. He found form again last year, but  that was in no part thanks to the Stormers. just one of many players being stifled by the South African rugby mentality. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Feb 2014, 15:34
#9
27 Feb 2014, 15:34#9

Dof Doos


Stupid - dof doos.  A player can beat one and even 2 defenders in traffic and crashball - how boody dim can you get.   You can always see that in the meters gained stats.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Feb 2014, 16:36
#10
27 Feb 2014, 16:36#10

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9435 RE: Carol Jane says SA dont use wings properly
February 27, 2014, 13:34:47

Dof Doos


Stupid - dof doos.  A player can beat one and even 2 defenders in traffic and crashball - how boody dim can you get.   You can always see that in the meters gained stats.


Ahhhhh. At last Sopdoos is seeing the light. He has discovered that Frans Steyn does not crashball every ball as he would like us all to believe. They problem is that he has so much shit between his ears that he would not realise what he has discovered.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Feb 2014, 18:19
#11
27 Feb 2014, 18:19#11

 Look - the situation where he player passes circa one-third of the ball he received is untenable and unacceptable in teams where there is an emphasis on backline play.


 We have had some of the best wings in test rugby - but they were underutilized and have to go and look for balls while the players inside them prevent them from getting decent backline balls.  This has ben going on for years - and is nothing new.  What I pointed out was a tendency - and a major one at that - that he hog the majority of balls he received and basically does nothing of consequence with them.   


On Saturday he reached the lowest point ever and he effectively sabotaged the whole game plan of the Sharks.   Iy is clear that there is a lot unhappiness about it in the franchise circles.,


Thee is one problem though - neither Morne nor Witless Hog are instinctive players - they play according to instruction and effectively are poor readers of games.  That reduces their ability to be really top ball distributors.   There is no way that the usage of wings can be optimised with those two in the pivot and midfield positions.             

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Feb 2014, 21:27
#12
27 Feb 2014, 21:27#12
 Aaag fok Blah di  blah di blah Morne blah blah blah blah Witless  Hog  blah di blah Sloth blah blah blah blah Morne............. etc etc etc.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
27 Feb 2014, 23:33
#13
27 Feb 2014, 23:33#13
 Habana would be even more awesome in an ABS team ,he would gather less dust and score  something like a bazzillion more tries !
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
27 Feb 2014, 23:52
#14
27 Feb 2014, 23:52#14
New Zealand and Australian backline players often stand further apart when forming a line which makes it easier to play a more expansive game. 
This extra space between each player makes is easier to run varied angles from either flat or deep, have more decoy runners and/or the blind side wing or fullback cut the backline. 

Although it would help if our centres could do accurate long passes while running at full speed, and not just the short pop passes that the opposition are accustomed to seeing. 
Its a chicken and egg situation where the backline game plan is conservative and predictable, but many of the centres and flyhalfs in South Africa do no have the passing skills to implement a more complex game plan. 
So the wings will often rot out wide or just get man and ball at the same time


FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
28 Feb 2014, 00:11
#15
28 Feb 2014, 00:11#15
 We are unfortunately relient on a kicking game plan.Up and unders,grubbers...corner cross kicks and many more.I feel like I want to say that it was imorta lized with players like Juba and Honniball.I was a wing...my coach told me,"IF you dont go and look for work your off the team!"Guess what I did...
RE
redsmanPro1,710 posts
28 Feb 2014, 00:26
#16
28 Feb 2014, 00:26#16

 I think it is stating the obvious - but often the obvious is overlooked...


IT starts with distribution and from my objective perspective - Steyn Bros (ie Frans and Morne) do not distribute enough...


Frans really had a shocker against the Canes - for a big guy he just lacks pace and therefore doesn't really create anything from his 'crashball' plays...


Example - look at Mvovo (whatever his name is) when he intercepted that ball - the guy is super quick - but he never gets the ball from a well executed backline play... why??


I think Frans is being too much of a 'self-man'....


Intersting to see if Saffas can compute this good bit of wisdom coming from AB try scoring machine Mrs Jane...


I think it maybe too complex for their 120kg at all costs style of rugby....

FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
28 Feb 2014, 00:33
#17
28 Feb 2014, 00:33#17
 Dont worry Redsman...Jake is hard at work with the Great White Sharks...
RE
redsmanPro1,710 posts
28 Feb 2014, 00:38
#18
28 Feb 2014, 00:38#18

I tend to agree that Jake will make the sharks into a well oiled machine -


but I feel that both their wins so far weren't that clinical and in comparison with the brumbies outfit from last year JW had them firing from the 1st round...


Obviously more politics at play in the RSA -


BUT... if Bok are looking toward RWC then the ol' style kick / field position 5/8 kinda play will no doubt play out the percentages and maybe this is as simple as it gets...


 

FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
28 Feb 2014, 00:49
#19
28 Feb 2014, 00:49#19

 Redsman,I think it will to take something miraculouse to dragg the Bok playing style away from kick and chase.I also agree on the two wins for the Sharks,people are suddenly thinking that the Sharks can seemingly win the RWC by themselves LOL.JW has a lot of work ahead.I hve to say,what happened at the Brumbies was something for Hollywood red carpets.From Zero to hero,man I was watching that Brumbies team...Before the season,no one knew who Joe Timani was or Jesse Mogg was...but look now.

 

I think at school lvel the tactics need to be changed.Trying to force an all ready setteld youngster to change the way he plays would mean disaster.Example,lets say from next week Cruden only kicks up and unders...What do you think will happen?He wont do it...and if he does every one will be like WTF!?!?!?!?Cant change human ingenuity.IT must be bread at grass roots.My childrens children will watch a springbok player in the likes of Carter or Cruden at 10 passing instead of kicking....WITH ALL DO RESPECT TO MY FELLOW COUNTRYMEN.

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
28 Feb 2014, 12:38
#20
28 Feb 2014, 12:38#20


ForeverArizona

Status: Orange peeler
Posts: 95 RE: Carol Jane says SA dont use wings properly
February 27, 2014, 22:11:26  We are unfortunately relient on a kicking game plan.Up and unders,grubbers...corner cross kicks and many more.I feel like I want to say that it was imortalized with players like Juba and Honniball.I was a wing...my coach told me,"IF you dont go and look for work your off the team!"Guess what I did...



Are you saying that we kick more than other teams, and run the ball  less than other teams?
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
28 Feb 2014, 12:54
#21
28 Feb 2014, 12:54#21
  "Redsman,I think it will to take something miraculouse to dragg the Bok playing style away from kick and chase.I also agree on the two wins for the Sharks,people are suddenly thinking that the Sharks can seemingly win the RWC by themselves LOL.JW has a lot of work ahead.I hve to say,what happened at the Brumbies was something for Hollywood red carpets.From Zero to hero,man I was watching that Brumbies team...Before the season,no one knew who Joe Timani was or Jesse Mogg was...but look now."

As long as South Africa expects a miracle 10 to save them, then kicking will be the only option. Kicking is actually a very devastating tactic, but as with anything, if you rely on it exclusively it becomes a problem. If you cannot manipulate the defence ball in hand, the only other option is to put the ball behind it.

As per the Sharks, they've showed alot more ball in hand and are willing to bring the fight to the defence. There is a lot more expectation now because they are playing  brand of rugby we haven't seen from them in seven years. They are by no means a little kick and chase team that the Bulls currently striving t be. Reason? Jake knows how a backline really works. He isn't deluded enough to fall for this romanticized notion of the miracle 10 who will do it all on his very own. Pay particular attention to how the Sharks use Jordaan, Frans and Mvovo throughout the season.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
28 Feb 2014, 13:00
#22
28 Feb 2014, 13:00#22
 @Ceradyne: You will have a hard fight on your hands to push through the murky thoughts of the media-drones. Here are the facts as per they:

Kiking arz bad n we kik morez dan dem. we arez must run from in goal areaz n 10 must score da tryz.

It makes you want to attack their ears with plungers to remove the clog. If anything we do not kick enough. The Ellis Park test was the perfect demonstration of this. Time and again we ran from our own half, from deep. It was suicide. Why? Because we made our mistakes in striking distance for them, they didn't. But statistically New Zealand have been kicking more than us year after year. It's tragic how the fans perceive we need to play like New Zealand by running more, yet our foes have made a concerted effort to win the aerial battle. It goes back any, many years! Don't even get me started on breaking down the defensive line, the fans put it all down to the 10. Suicide at best.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Feb 2014, 13:46
#23
28 Feb 2014, 13:46#23

 Sun Tzu


Mvovo and Jordaan is of no effect can cannot be utilized proiperly unless they can get some balls to play with.   On Saturday they virtually were never receiving balls - since Witless Hog aka Francois Steyn would not pass balls to anyone playing outside of him.   White can only deal with the backline issue if the malfunctioning of the 12 is stopped and we will see in the next game if that message gets through to Witless Hog. 


Nobody expect miracles from a ten - the only thing that everybody really expect is positive reading of games and prompt decision making.  A ten is a pivot not a robot like we seems to be accustomed to.   A 10 must vary play according to his reading of the game - not necessarily according to instructions given to him in advance.

  

 

 

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
28 Feb 2014, 13:49
#24
28 Feb 2014, 13:49#24
You imbecile, did you not note the Canes defence rushing up cutting off the outside channels? No? Did your statis-thicks not tell you that? Frans has been one of the best Sharks players, period. But of course, what can we expect for the rest of the year? Anti-Morne, Frans, Alberts, Bulls nonsense. I swear Michael, you would be the model MK-Ultra trainer.
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
01 Mar 2014, 02:39
#25
01 Mar 2014, 02:39#25

You guys miss the point...1995...a boy becomes a man...a man becomes a leggend and with the leggend...the drop kick.Emphasis on kick...

 

AKA Joel Stransky

 

Guys like him,and Naas and and Jannie de Beer LOL they all went hell  bent on kiciking.

The kick was eternalized in springbok rugby. 

 

The truth is...it won us a world cup...and so did Percy Montgomery's kicking in 2007 do the same.

 

Game plan=kick....LOL

— END OF THREAD —

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