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FORUM / RUGBY /  Coenie at tighthead against the Brumbies

Coenie at tighthead against the Brumbies

Started by Saffolk 8 REPLIES325 VIEWS· 24 Jul 2013, 02:11
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SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Jul 2013, 02:11
#1
24 Jul 2013, 02:11#1

Moz, sorry bud, but this reminds me of your take on Mujati's performance against Leinster some seasons back. Your conclusion that Coenie got smashed is so far from reality that I am typing with a smile on my face.

 

As I originally contended, there was only one poor Cheetahs scrum. With the luxury of having the game on my skybox, I had a quick look at the second half scrums. This is how they panned out:

 

Minute 51 - Early hit by Brumbies scrum, they march the Cheetahs pack backwards - Coenie and co get smashed. Should have been penalty to Cheetahs for early Brumbies engage.

 

Minute 54.50 - Cheetahs ball close to their line. Huge scrum by Coenie, he smashes the Brumbies 1. Cheetahs scrum marches Brumbies scrum backwards

 

Minute 56.30 - Brumbies ball - nothing in it - reset - Brumbies 1 scrums inwards, but ref is on other side and penalises Nkanyane for going down.

 

Minute 62.30 - Cheetahs ball - another huge scrum by Coenie, Cheetahs scrum dominates 

 

Minute 64.30 - Cheetahs ball - Brumbies 1 scrums inwards and gets penalised. Sorry Moz, I still waiting to see where Coenie gets smashed with 15 min to go!!

 

Minute 70 - Cheetahs ball - Solid from both sides, nothing in it

 

Minute 74.40 - Cheetahs ball - again nothing in it, but Brumbies 1 is clearly scrumming inwards but gets away with it

 

Minute 76.30 - Brumbies ball - reset - Nothing in it, with slight advantage to Coenie

 

Sorry Moz, Coenie got smashed along with the rest of the Cheetahs pack in that first scrum. Thereafter Coenie gets the better of the Brumbies 1 on two occasions and for the rest it was even. 

 

I am more than happy for anyone to counter any of my takes on Coenie's performance at 3. Its complete nonsense that there is an issue with his scrumming. Coenie remains a great prospect at 3 and what needs to happen moving forward is an investment in him at 3 meaning 80min each week at 3. He is new to the position and has done a good job there all season. The Cheetahs scrum has been damn good this year

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Jul 2013, 03:28
#2
24 Jul 2013, 03:28#2
Moojati did get smashed in the second half after Leinster made some adjustments. But seriously this reminds me more of CJ, Greyling and Werner Kruger all of whom you debated with me. You swore they were going to be fine.....I told you they couldn't scrum. Look what happened. - In any case I'll review your list of scrums and provide my usual unbiased comments.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Jul 2013, 07:00
#3
24 Jul 2013, 07:00#3
Saffex The issue was that Mozart came up with an extremely biased report making an attack on Oosthuizen. When I pointed out to him that Sio was scrumming inwards - which is illegal in terms of the laws of rugby - he ended up being unpleasant and calling me a fool. He obviously got caught out and was then keep on harping about it ending up with a saying that all looseheads who are dominant scrum inwards. His comments remind me of his biased attack on Engelbrecht and praising of De Jongh in another thread - where he also said that every time Ebgelbrecht tackled De Jongh he was dragged back 5 meters in the process. When pointed out that there was only one instance where De Jongh made about 8 meters before he was tackled he again started his old trick of trying to side track the issue, because he was statistically way off the mark. You will get another biased comment from him trying to come up with an argument like Sio was not scrumming inwards when Adriaanse was opposing him - why did it only happen when Oosthuizen was opposite him - not realising that the reason for the inwards scrumming was that Sio really had no weapon against Oosthuizen at all and inward scrumming was the only real alternative available to him in that scenario.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Jul 2013, 08:28
#4
24 Jul 2013, 08:28#4
So firstly this whole game is available on youtube: - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpCjJKj2YU - So take a look yourself and make up your own mind. There were 8 scrums....5 to the Cheetahs and 3 to the Brumbies. The Cheetahs did much better on their own feed where they got the hit . When the Brumbies got the feed Coenie was penalized as was Nackers. So here are the scrums: - Minute 51 ....The Brumbies go forward on the hit, Coenie's upper body is twisted, with his right shoulder going up. He loses his footing and the scrum is smashed. Brumbies penalty. - Minute 54.50....the Cheetahs feed and they go forawrd on the hit. This is the only Cheetahs scrum where Oosthuizen moves forward. - Minute 56.30 ....Brumbies feed, they scrum dead straight, Coenie loses his footing and the scrum is reset. In the second scrum Coenie is peeled backwards and Sio scrums him into the deck. Brumbies penalty. - Minute 62.30 ....solid Cheetahs scrum on their own ball. - Minute 64.30....Cheetahs feed, they are under pressure as ref blows Sio for changing his angle. This is a chicken and the egg thing ...was Coenie collapsing inwards first? - Minute 70....Cheetahs feed, milder version of coenie being twisted inside and up, the ball is cleared before any damage. - Minute 74.40....Cheetahs feed on Brumbies 5 metre line. Sio is warned by the ref before the scrum and clearly would not want to be penalized. But the scrum goes the same way....Coenie is twisted inside and his right shoulder rides up....and again his right foot is pawing for the ground. - Minute 76.30 ....Brumbies feed, they shove the Cheetahs back and the scrum collapses. It's reset and Coenie is again forced to retreat. - So what to conclude about all this. If the Cheetahs get the hit on their own ball, Coenie is a neutral....he doesn't pressurize his man, but the Cheetahs have a successful scrum. The moment he doesn't get the hit, bad things happen. In the first scrum before the reset, at minute 56.30, he was driven to his knees. In other scrums, he gets the opposite of right shoulder, his right shoulder rides up and back.....then he seems to resist too long so it's not an orderly retreat, but more of a crack to quote the Tour. - The supposed villain in all this is Sio, for scrumming in. But all looseheads scrum in to some extent, check out Kitshoff against the Bools. If the tighthead doesn't stay firm on his right shoulder the scrum will wheel.The point is Coenie almost instantly starts falling inwards and losing traction on his right foot...he paws at the ground in several cases. - But this isn't a power opponent. Sio is a less than average 112 kgs according to ESPN. The Brumbies are not a big pack. Even if Sio is illegal on occasion, Coenie's total collapsing is shocking. Can you imagine Franks being twisted, lifted and dumped like that? - I have to agree with Visagie and Kempson.....Coenie is a great player in the tight /loose and an adequate loosehead. Leave him there. The way he collapsed against the Brumbies suggests he is at risk at tighthead.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Jul 2013, 09:01
#5
24 Jul 2013, 09:01#5
Saffex See what I meant -- Mozart is still not considering the fact that Sio was scrumming illegally - he refuses to see or consider that. His whole argument is flawed and based on illegal scrumming - which he apparently in this case support whole-heartedly. Last year when it happened in Twickenham he himself was pointing out that it was illegal. Just like he uses stats when it suits his argument and ignore it otherwise - in this case he uses illegalities as a basis for argument. Early hits and scrumming inwards are illegal and should be ignored. However, he does not want to recognise the illegalities involved and keep on harping on Coenie as the culprit in this case. The new angle apparently is for Coenie to be blamed because Sio was scrumming inwards - and he did at one stage question the fact that Sio was penalised for scrumming inwards and the penalty was according to him unjustified in that case. Really farcical and biased beyond belief. Unbiased approach - he has no claim to that one at all.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2013, 00:09
#6
25 Jul 2013, 00:09#6

 Sorry Moz your take on those scrums is just plain inaccurate. There is no way in hell Coenie got smashed other than the first scrum and that was down to a very early hit by the Brumbies.

 

In the second scrum Coenie smashes Sio - fact.

 

For the rest there was nothing in it at all and the footage is there for everyone to see.

 

As for Mujati, sorry Moz your take was again inaccurate. The Saints frontrow killed the Leinster pack for most of that match. The only scrum where Mujati struggled was when the Saints had a forward in the bin. It was a 7 vs 8 man scrum.

 

Coenie has had a good season on both sides of the scrum. There is no reason in the world he cant make a good tighthead. But the only way that will happen is if he only plays 3.

 

I prefer him at 3 for he is physically stronger than his opponents and by being at 3 he is confined. At 1 he tends to push upwards in his attempt to dominate........to be honest I dont really get what Os is doing as a scrum coach........he seems ill equipped technically to help these players out. Coenie is work in progress and has done a fine job at 3 all S15.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jul 2013, 01:14
#7
25 Jul 2013, 01:14#7
We obviously see things differently Dave. So time will have to tell....good luck to your son in his RSA tour.
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
25 Jul 2013, 01:37
#8
25 Jul 2013, 01:37#8

Yeah we do and thanks, they are having a ball, Cango caves and ostrich racing today, Knysna and Storms river tomorrow and they are hoping to go watch the Kings v Lions S15 play off in PE on Friday evening.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jul 2013, 02:15
#9
25 Jul 2013, 02:15#9
Good stuff!
— END OF THREAD —

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