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FORUM / RUGBY /  Coetzee thus far

Coetzee thus far

Started by Saffolk 12 REPLIES466 VIEWS· 17 Jun 2016, 11:52
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SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Jun 2016, 11:52
#1
17 Jun 2016, 11:52#1
 

I’m not convinced about Coetzee as a coach in terms of how he wants the game played. I suspect he is more of the conservative type given his reluctance to start Jantjies and the fact that he has pushed the point that Jantjies needs to manage the game and earn the right to go wide……that’s not the Jantjies way, by instructing him as such, one blunts his creativity and end up negating him playing on instinct. Jantjies thrives on freedom to play on instinct……something that never happened when Jantjies played under Coetzee at the Stormers. Time will tell however as Coetzee has spoken of the expansive game. Use the Lions model it works and will work at test level where our pack can impose themselves physically unlike the Lions pack at times.

 

What Coetzee is getting right is his selections, be it in the Test squad or A squad. He recognises talent and yes he has not got that 100% correct as quotas play a part but lets look at what he has got right in terms of selections:

 

Bok squad – good selections:

 

Wilie

 

JP / Combrink

 

Jessie Kriel / de Allende / Serfontein / Mapoe

 

Jantjies / Lambie

 

Faf

 

Malherbe / Beast / Nyakane / Redelinghuis / Kitshoff

 

Strauss / Mbonambi

 

Etzebeth / Lood / PSDT / Mostert

 

Jaco Kriel / Whiteley / Kolisi / Vermeulen

 

Bok squad – poor selections:

 

Mvovo, Paige, Morne and Louw

 

A squad – good selections:

 

Zas

 

Ismaeil / Skosan / Sergeal Petersen

 

Frans Venter / Mnisi / Am

 

April

 

Groom / v/Zyl

 

Coenie / Gqoboko / Marcel v/d Merwe / Koch / Thomas du Toit

 

Marx / Scara / Maratulle

 

JD Schickerling / Lewies / RG Snyman / Jason Jenkins

 

Carr / Notshe / Oupa / du Preez / Arno Botha

 

A squad – poor selections:

 

Brummer and Kebe

 

Injured players not considered or just back from injury:

 

Reinach/ Pollard / du Preez/ Odendaal / Vorster/ Andries Coetzee / Wilco Louw / Jean Kleyn / Ruan Botha / Mtembu / v/d Walt / Coetzee

 

Players on 7’s duty:

 

Hougaard / Kolbe / Senatla / Gelant

 

Good players that have missed out:

 

Kobus v/Wyk / Ulengo / Rhule / Sithole

 

Esterhuizen / Jordaan / Rohan Janse v/Rensburg / Dries Swanepoel

 

du Plessis

 

Schraueder

 

Kebble / Maks v/Dyk / Pierre Schoeman

 

Akers

 

Lorens Erasmus / Ettienne Oosthuizen / Wegner

 

Labs / Elstadt / du Preez / Cyle Brink / Kirsten / Liebenberg

 

Of these, Ulengo, Janse v Rensburg, Akers and Kirsten are glaring omissions

 

Overseas based players that should have made the squads:

 

Paul Willemse / Jacques du Plessis / Frans Steyn / Bismark and Goosen

 

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
17 Jun 2016, 12:30
#2
17 Jun 2016, 12:30#2
 Coetzee chose both the Bok and the A side squads?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Jun 2016, 12:36
#3
17 Jun 2016, 12:36#3
I'm guessing as national coach - yes or certainly a major input
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
17 Jun 2016, 13:48
#4
17 Jun 2016, 13:48#4
 In your opinion, Dave. I say it again ... in your opinion, Dave...
You may think that he's done a good job at selecting a squad. You may even think he's only made 4 poor selections ... and that the rest of the squad are the cream we have available ... but your wrong, Dave.
You make it sound as though it were fact ... but it's not ... it's only your opinion.
In my mind and in the minds of many others he's made a right hash of it all.
Many of the players you rate as test quality are in fact sub standard. 

Kolisi, Lood, Jesse Kriel, JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux, Rudi Paige, Beast Mtawarira, Scara Ntubeni, Bongo Mbonambi, Adriaan Strauss, Trevor Nyakane and Francois Louw ... are all sub standard ... are all undeserving ... are all second and in some cases third or fourth best in their position.
That's 12 in his squad that I do not rate at all. 12 poorly selected players that are not test quality ... in my opinion. I have a few others like De Allende and Serfontein on my list, which I'll set aside for now. 
What in heaven's name are they doing there? We all know they cant produce the goods yet there they are.
You rate these guys ... I do not. 
That's why I say Dave ... these guys are the best you feel we have ... in your opinion ...  I feel differently about this squad. I am of the opinion that we have MUCH MUCH better sitting at home. 
So please ... don't make out as though it's fact ... it's not. It's only your opinion. 
The Irish cleaned us up ... with 14 men ... that's now against a squad where according to you only 4 were poorly selected. 
Beast, Strauss, Mbonambi, Lood, Kolisi, Louw, De Allende, JP, Mvovo and Willie Le Roux have ALL had an awful season this year. 
ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!
Yet they're all in the starting 15.  
Throw in Trevor who can't get a start in the Bulls mix ... same goes for Paige ... both are on the bench ... 
It's madness. 
Bottom line is that we do not have our best out on the park ... not by a long shot.
 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
17 Jun 2016, 15:28
#5
17 Jun 2016, 15:28#5

CC, I don't respect your rugby opinions as your calls are a joke, plus your Lions bias shines bright


I'll stick with my opinion CC


Coetzee has mostly got his selections spot on, bar not involving Kitshoff ahead of Beast, Combrink ahead of Mvovo and Jaco Kriel ahead of Louw.


There are a few other calls he should have made like Jessie Kriel ahead of Mapoe and Bismark ahead of Strauss with Marx on the bench.


We cant say the same about Meyer and his geriatric sides......at least Coetzee is getting the selections right - I'll give him that


 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
17 Jun 2016, 15:39
#6
17 Jun 2016, 15:39#6
 Coetzee got his selections right, says Saffex. These players are all spot-on says he. Then WTF did the Paddies clobber us with a man, and at some stage two men, short. 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
17 Jun 2016, 15:57
#7
17 Jun 2016, 15:57#7
 I'm pleased to hear that, Dave. 
I would have to rethink everything I know about rugby had we the same opinion. 
Heaven forbid.  
I could never imagine bringing a Coenie into my side and the same goes for Jesse Kriel. Not even on the bench. 
I'm afraid Coetzee's messed his selections up horribly ... as we saw last week Saturday. The result is proof enough of that.  I can't see it improving any day soon either.
Haaaahahahaaa ... You're happy with Coetzee's team, right ... yet in the above post you make a quick 6 changes to it. 
I rest my case!!  


   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
17 Jun 2016, 16:05
#8
17 Jun 2016, 16:05#8
 You have to admit Dave has a strategy that works for him
1 He selects every young player as a potential great...at least 50 active candidates at one time. And when 3 succeed he declares victory. Most others would call that a 6% success rate.
2 He never admits when major picks like JJ, step, Coenie, Chile, Meisiekind flop.... he just blames the coach.


It's really effective if honesty isn't your thing.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
17 Jun 2016, 17:06
#9
17 Jun 2016, 17:06#9
Lmao @ moz
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Jun 2016, 08:01
#10
18 Jun 2016, 08:01#10
 Dave has many selections wrong and he never admits he was wrong on player selections - but in some cases he has the selections right.  Mozart is the same.  Whereas Dave places too much emphasis on youngsters - Mozart's virtual entire trust is put in has-beens and never-has-beens.   Both never looks at performance - for them that is not important.  In the case of both they depend too much on reputation -  Dave on how they performed in junior rugby - Mozart on how they performed in 2007-08.   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
18 Jun 2016, 08:20
#11
18 Jun 2016, 08:20#11
 And how about you, Butt Wipe?
Do you even have an idea that doesn't include b! tching about Matfield, Morne, Meyer, Alberts, Fat Fransie while promoting the injury prone full back Goosen to 10?
Huh?
Didn't think so ... 
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
18 Jun 2016, 08:33
#12
18 Jun 2016, 08:33#12
 So says Rich......
To be fair, it didn’t just start there. The Springboks have been inconsistent for a long time now, and 2013, when Heyneke Meyer’s team lost only to New Zealand and were comfortably the second in the world, was an aberration. The tide turned at the end of 2009, when the team coached by Peter de Villiers failed to recognise that rugby is a constantly evolving sport and then allowed New Zealand and Australia to steal a march on them in the following year’s Tri-Nations.

If you check out the results, the Boks have struggled since the 2009 Tri-Nations, when a three match whitewash of the Kiwis precipitated the corrections that have now contributed to the All Blacks becoming an allround team that is pretty close to invincible.

The identity crisis the Boks seem to be constantly battling with might be half of the problem. There’s a constant call for reinvention, and those who think that Allister Coetzee’s predecessor didn’t try to reinvent would be wrong. In 2013 the Boks tried to play a more attacking game, and succeeded, but there wasn’t enough science to a plan that essentially revolved around the unpredictability of one man, fullback Willie le Roux, for it to be properly sustained.

There has seldom appeared to be the understanding of how much work an effective attacking game requires. It does not revolve just around “Have a go” or “Swing it wide” like so many South Africans seem to think it does. Ask former All Black coach John Mitchell to go through the amendments to his team’s attacking game ahead of two big 50 point wins over the Boks and Australia in the space of seven days in 2003 and you can expect to give up much of your morning.

It probably isn’t a coincidence that the only local coach who can be said to be effectively coaching an attacking game is Johan Ackermann, who just happened to have worked under Mitchell for two years before he took charge of the Lions. And if there is anyone who thinks that the Lions achieved what they have without many misfires and growing pains along the way, then that person either has a poor memory or just hasn’t been paying attention.

The Boks looked last week like a team that was suffering an identity crisis and which may also have been at odds with itself. There were Lions players in key positions once Patrick Lambie went off, but they clearly didn’t satisfy the plan of the coach, and it contributed to the perception that once again here was a Bok team trying to play an attacking game without applying science to it.

As Coetzee said at the Thursday team announcement press conference, it was tactically naïve for the Boks to think once the Irish were down to 14 men it should just be a case of spreading the ball wide in search of an overlap.

He used the old cricketing analogy about hitting sixes again, emphasising the need to build an innings before being too flash – and unless the Boks adapt their approach so they mix it up more than they did in Cape Town, we can expect Coetzee to repeat that analogy ad-nauseam.

While there were doubtless some who, because they’ve brought into the ideology that flashy is the way to go, will think Faf de Klerk and Elton Jantjies did well last week, it is patently clear from everything that Coetzee has said since then that he was one person they didn’t satisfy. And he is the man who decides whether they have a Bok future after Saturday.

The Lions pair are both fine and talented players, there’s no doubting that, but they are going to have to step up and do what their new coach expects them to do in Johannesburg. Coetzee has left little doubt about what he wants Jantjies to do – have a go when the situation presents itself, but otherwise play for territory and ensure the Boks can do their attacking in the right areas of the field. Those who bulk at that thought should ask themselves whether the basic tenet of the All Black approach is that different. It isn’t.

No-one who saw the Boks play at the World Cup will deny that reinvention is necessary. But there needs to be wariness about what that reinvention entails and how quickly it can be achieved. Right now more than anything else the Boks need to be what Coetzee asked for last week but wasn’t delivered – they need to be smart.

Doing something that plays into Irish hands just isn’t smart. The Boks have been outsmarted by Ireland, who have made quite a few changes for Saturday, two games in a row now if you go back to Dublin 2014. It’s time for that to change. The Boks need to buck up in all areas, or what was a difficult situation last week will start becoming a calamitous one.

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
18 Jun 2016, 08:57
#13
18 Jun 2016, 08:57#13
 Some here would call ouDawie a goatherder  ..........
— END OF THREAD —

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