Danie Gerber's views on the game against the Irish

The following from News24:-

“Legendary Springbok centre Danie Gerber says the players are to blame for last Saturday’s fiasco against Ireland at Newlands.

Ireland stunned the Boks 26-20 in Allister Coetzee’s first Test as new national coach.

It was Ireland's first ever win over South Africa on these shores and what made the feat even more remarkable was that they did so my playing the majority of the match with 14 men after CJ Stander was red carded in the 22nd minute.

But Gerber, 58, feels the blame cannot be laid at the door of the coach.

He instead criticised the players for making a mammoth 22 handling errors in the game.

Ireland only knocked on six times.

“They are professional players and should play like professionals. The coach can’t go on to the field and catch the ball for you,” Gerber told Netwerk24.

“You can coach a team as well as you want, but the players should also play their part. South African players’ lack of skills has been a problem for a long time and it was very clear to see at Newlands.”

This is not the first time Gerber has expressed his concern about the skills of South African players.

Sport24 reported last year about Gerber saying how hard it was to watch South African teams participate in Super Rugby.

“Our rugby is messed up by an obsession to mostly attack with the forwards. It’s really not very attractive to watch," Gerber said in April 2015.

Gerber played 24 Tests for the Springboks between 1980 and 1992, scoring 19 tries.

He was inducted into World Rugby’s Hall of Fame last year. “

 

The question is who made the 23 handling errors or gave away possession regularly?    The problem is that the obsession with using mostly forwards to attack – a Meyer contribution  with its roots going back a decade to Bulls rugby in 2004-06  –  is still there together with the usage of skill-deficient and slow loosies, whom far too often think they are replacement backline players.

 Mike, Gerber makes a lot of sense, you don't. Fact is he says there were 22 handling errors, it's irrelevant whether they be by the forwards or the backs, what Gerber is saying that as PROFESSIONAL players they should not drop the ball. 
"The coach can’t go on to the field and catch the ball for you,”

 @Mike. You have to start forgetting about your deep settled dislike for Heyneke Meyer and the Bulls and stop blaming them for everything that is supposedly wrong in SA rugby. You once wrote another of your mile ling essays about how Naas Botha and the Bulls were responsible for inception of the so-called 10 man kicking game. 
The only reason why Naas Botha was so disliked for his kicking game was because it was a successful approach. The dislike for Botha and his boot came mostly from the Cape where they were playing "attractive running rugby". The comments, after every game that N Tvl won, was normally that WP or whoever side they played against played the more attractive rugby. It is almost like Mbalula saying that we lost against Ireland but at least our team was more representative of the demographics of SA.
And just to show you how wrong you are that Heyneke Meyer, the Bulls and Naas Botha were the culprits for the kicking, have a look at this game from 1976. The flyhalf? The "great" Gerald Bosch from Transvaal. The only Bulls (N Tvl) player in that game was Moaner van Heerden. The rest of the backline, bar Bosch and scrumhalf Paul Bayvel (also from Tvl) and winger Gerrie Germishuys were all from WP. Do yourself a favour and check how many times the ball went past Bosch. 
The full team list for that game was:
Dawie Snyman - WPChris Pope - WPJohan Oosthuizen - WPPeter Wipp - WPGerrie Germishuys - TvlGerald Bosch - TvlPaul Bayvel - TvlRampie Stander - OFSPiston van Wyk - NatalJohan Strauss - TvlMoaner van Heerden - N TvlKevin de Klerk - TvlBoland Coetzee - WPTheuns Stofberg - OFSMorne du Plessis - WP (C)
https://youtu.be/Az31E_EKEVk

Test level players shouldn't need a coach to teach them how to draw and pass. Or that they should lower their body position when going into contact. Or that they shouldn't go off their feet at breakdowns. Or how to exploit a 4 on 2 numbers situation to score a try. If our players really still need to be spoon fed basics like that by a coach at test level, we're a lost cause. 

 Most of the above is missing the point comprehensively.   I except that there were way too many ball possession losses - but tried to identify why that happened and what Gerber said in the past related to the Meyer regime as coach.   Fact is on Saturday there were so many negatives that made it impossible for the Springboks to win anything.   It was a clear reflection of exactly what went wrong against the teams the Springboks played during and since the November 2014 EOYT and in the Argentine and Japanese tests last year.   Coetzee brought nothing to the fore that could be regarded as an improvement - matter of fact the team was as weak in performance as the Meyer squads.   The idea that the Meyer squad was better than Coetzee's - even though the latter  had to contend with BEE and quotas to a larger extent than was the case with Meyer - is absolute BS.   I do not deal with dislikes and that is a fact.  I look at what actually went wrong recently - ie since 2007-08 - and why Springbok rugby at present is in the doldrums it is.  To blame any Super Rugby team is also problematic - since the  coaches were dolts as well.  Let me put it clearly - SARU has never developed as a professional outfit - it is a lot of amateurs trying to run a professional game.   That scenario leads to amateurism in coaching and all kinds of extraneous factors that trump performance and professionalism in team selection and a flawed game plan no other coach in the world would accept/apply as realistic.                   

 Exactly, Pakie. I have said over and over and over and over again that a player should be in the national team because he has certain skills. He should not go there to learn, develop, or even improve those skills. If he doesn't already have them, then he doesn't belong there. The sooner everybody understands that the national side is not the responsibility of the national coach, the better.
We need to understand that the national side is the sum total of all the coaching that goes into the players at all levels. The national coach' job is to decide on a team philosophy, approach and strategy and implement that. He should not be involved coaching basic skills. He should, at best, use training regimes to keep the skills in check. In addition he should be able to identify strengths and weaknesses of his players and adjust his "plans" accordingly. In other words he should find a way to identify the players who would best fit in with his plans. In addition, he need to make adjustments to individual players' game to fit in with his plans but never should he be involved in teaching skills. Never. Let me reiterate. If a player does not have the necessary skills, he does not belong in the squad and he should blame himself and the coaches that were involved with him up to the stage where he got his call-up to the national side.

I am happy about the debate on skills which is not the function of the national coach - agreed on that one.   However, what is amazing is if you watch school rugby you see player skills in abundance - even in the Varsity Cup competition you do not see the rubbish we get used to in some cases on Super Rugby level and in the Springbok squad.  So the questions remains - what went wrong subsequently?   There are two issues I believe that is the reason for the skills deficiency - namely the use of a game plan suited to players of the past who could not adjust or lost their ability to perform, and the present players who were coached out of skills by some Super Rugby coaches.  Take Strauss as an example - he did very well for the Cheetahs, was taken over by the Bulls and turned into a dummy since then.  All the skills he showed for the Cheetahs - he lost subsequently - why?  The same applies to other players.  Take for instance De Allende - he was massive in 2014 on Super Rugby level and was turned into a traditional crashballer subsequently  losing all the skills he showed initially  - why?  I blame the Super Rugby coaches for the problem - but the national coaches are also to blame for deficient game plans killing individuality and player development.               

 Point the finger at all of them.
They all played their part in this fiasco. 
The coach and his assistant coaches for not having the required skills to coach any rugby side ... not even being able to put the simplest of game plans in place ... as well as making a cock-up with the selections of his match 23. 
The raced based selectors for fielding the wrong squad. Leaving all the talent at home to watch the match on TV. 
The players for not having the necessary skill sets to compete at test level.
I look forward to another thumping this weekend.
I would suggest our coach start working on additional excuses to throw at us. He's already pointed his grubby finger at the players and claimed innocence for himself.

 "If our players really still need to be spoon fed basics like that by a coach at test level, we're a lost cause."
In other words, nothing has changed since re-admission.

I am not a Coetzee fan, but in this case I agree with what Gerber said. You can have the best attacking lines and tactics in the world, but if your players keep dropping the ball, absolutely no game plan is going to work. Also, these guys have been playing together under Coetzee for two weeks, that is neither enough time to learn or unlearn how to catch or hold on to a ball.   
The team as a whole was terrible. End of story/
Ps. Mike......please stop bringing up the same shart about Meyer over and over again. He is history! We get it already.....you don't like what he did as coach. Judge Coetzee on Coetzee, Meyer is no longer a factor. 

Too much creatine and gym training- and not enough skills training. Our coaches want the team to play like sumo wrestlers. 
I do however think that the game plan or lack thereof can influence the skills application.
Some of the players have basic skills of passing and catching- as proven in other matches
It is a bit unusual that so many players would have a bad day at the office on the same day. 
If the players don't know what each other are going to do- it is going to effect running and support lines. More hospital passes will be thrown

 If you're looking for excuses as to why they dropped the ball 16 times more than the Irish then you'll find plenty. Whilst we're on basic skills......I go back to what Jacques Potgieter had to say when asked if he'd learnt anything while playing for the 'Tahs.
"My team mates told me not to die with the ball in the tackle." 
He said this after he'd been a Bok.
I bet there's still a few Boks running around who are still ignorant about a given that should be taught at grassroot level.

 "Also, these guys have been playing together under Coetzee for two weeks, that is neither enough time to learn or unlearn how to catch or hold on to a ball."   It's not Coetzee's role to teach Professional players basic skills.

 Ou Alistair has no record of teaching backs or indeed teams anything. He has been a consistent flop as a coach. Is this going to change is the only question.
Very few can shine in this dismal set up. Faf was the notable exception. Mapoe who has shone for the Lions illustrates the problem. It was an altogether inept display lacking in intelligence and strategy as Mallet pointed out in detail. 
I expect better on Saturday but cannot but feel with quotas kicking in big time we will be less and less competitive. What exactly are the causes for optimism as the game goes down the tube in Sa as egged on, nay demanded, by the anc? 
Mike is correct regarding the mobility of the loosies but Coetzee has no clue whatsoever eg where is Kriel. His loose forward picks abound in quotas as does the hooker position. paige and April. Bwahahahahahaha
However oaks, the first decision has to be what rugby style are you going to adopt. It has to be the well balanced Lions style. All Franchises need to wake up and get with it as well.
The problem start at the top with anc and Hoskins who knows zero about rugby. The whole edifice is rotten and any hope of being top dogs must be put on hold until, and if ever, there is a 180 degree turn around.
Meanwhile I am looking forward to Wimbledon where fair play and merit rule! Go Garbine, and go Federer (probably a bit old now but here is hoping!
Expect my good friend and lunatic JW to make excuses for Alistair. Be warned JW you are in the bad company of dense denise. No more need be said.

 Mikey just what exactly is it you expect from a forward ? You keep saying NZ forwards arent good at their core duties then you reckon yours are no good at trying to expand their roles like NZ forwards [check out the 3 forwards out on the wing when NZ scored their last try on sat.] .So what do you want ? Forwards who do their defined core duties and no more ? Or forwards who are quite comfortable drawing passing running  and offloading wherever they are ,and do enough to hold parity in the set pieces .The NZ scrum may not be a 'weapon " as such but thats old hat that stuff as far as NZ is concerned ,we want mobile forwards who  are upskilled.

 Pakie nailed it and Denny reinforced it with the Potgeiter yarn ,when you get to test level you are supposed to have all the skills required ,if you dont its too farking late to learn.

 I think Alistair can be held accountable for the lack of commitment the Boks showed. They seemed more intent on showcasing their games, rather than slaughtering the bog folk. There was no urgency.
But the handling errors, being stripped in the tackle, the dumb penalties and the lack of individual ideas.....have to be on the players.
40% the coach, 60% the players. As for it being HM's fault, that's laughable and spiteful.

 Mozart - Coetzee inherited the skill-deficient players and sh!t game plan from Meyer and the Meyer negatives will not vanish overnight.   Too many of the players have been spoilt in their game performance and execution by Meyer and the elements of what they produced is clear when you compare the irish test with what happened in the Springbok games last year against Argentina and Japan.   There were too many similarities to come to a different conclusion.   The damage caused by Meyer will haunt us for years to come.   However, looking at the game on Saturday - it is clear that Coetzee did not do enough to undo the damage did by Meyer insofar as SA Rugby is concerned.   But then - I agree with Beeno - Coetzee was a dud coach for the Stormers insofar as essentially backline play is concerned and he is not a coach encouraging anything - rather a try and prevent a loss than try to win a game.     

 "....when you get to test level you are supposed to have all the skills required ,if you dont its too farking late to learn.
The one big problem with the SAFFA mentality is that they believe players have the necessary skills to compete at the highest level. How can it be when at lower levels where it matters most, good coaches are nowhere to be found, at franchise level it's non existent. Our U20's are a damn joke....plain and simple evidence for all to see. I have said on numerous occasions that our players lack the required skills and nous to be effective only to be shouted down.

 Exactly Den....there are posters on here who believe we have the worlds best players, enough for four test teams.....but when we lose its because the coach didn't teach them how to catch the ball.

 Have the Loins playing dumb rugby and they would be near the bottom of the table.
What chance of smart rugby under Coetzee?All old dense denise can see is some balls were dropped. Bwhahahaahhahahaha I suppose that lonely brain cell cant take it further!

 or it's Transformation or it's the corrupt ANC or Zuma and his 99 wives.....and point to the Lions as the team to lead the Boks to the pearly gates.
Never the fact that unless the skill levels take a quantum leap forward so that there's some substance at franchise level, rid themselves of the imposters who call themselves coaches and free up the system so players are picked on merit. When are we going to see the day that our franchises beat the top Kiwi and Ozzie teams on a regular basis??...we are afterall a rugby nation, are we not?

 Meyer is to some ... what Apartheid is to others. An excuse to point the finger.
Saturdays loss lies solely at the feet of Coetzee. The disastrous performance we saw on Saturday was all his own doing. He didn't need help from anyone, so stop crediting Meyer with it all. He did very little of anything during his time to warrant such attention.
Comrade Arsehole is incapable of contributing anything that doesn't have Morne, Matfield, Alberts, Fransie and Meyer in it. 
He pushes the boundaries from time to time by speaking of the injury prone Goosen ... but that's as far it goes ... so to partake in any debate he's forced to redirect the conversation to include these ghosts of the past. It's all he has. Poor dear!!
Any way ... we have highly talented individuals in the country. I cannot believe that we're incapable of fielding a side that's not strong enough, not skilled enough to dominate every opponent.

Ackerman took a bunch of rejected nobodies and made them into a strong competitive unit ... some of which have been selected to play for their country.
I do accept that we are in short supply of any decent coaches and that's why I was in favour of going outside the borders for a national coach.
I honestly believe we have what it takes to become a force in world rugby. We just need someone to tap it properly.



 

I am not sure if Ackerman is the genius he is made out to be.
It is either Swyss Debruin- or john Mitchell that created the running rugby at the lions.
Some players in the Boks are certainly out of form. the revolving Delande is hopelessly out of form- that he ruined the debut of Mapoe

 Is John Mitchell at the Lions ? Good coach ,give him the Boks !

@WD "Mikey just what exactly is it you expect from a forward ? You keep saying NZ forwards arent good at their core duties then you reckon yours are no good at trying to expand their roles like NZ forwards [check out the 3 forwards out on the wing when NZ scored their last try on sat.]" It seems one has ro be a Saffa to follow this. Mostert who plays at lock for the Lions has a war with the opposition every single.minute that he is on the field. He gets credit, but not as much as he deserves. Keep an eye on him during games and you won't need to visit the stats page post game to be sure that he impacts the game in a very big very positive way. National selection comes along and then this is what we do in SA? We say, "Sure Mostert has been the best Lock in the country for most of the season, has good hands, gets to rucks very quickly and reads the game very well. But Eben is a body builder. Sorry Mostert, but Eben looks more like a lock, so he will start." We don't consider when last Eben did something positive in a Bok jersey. The fact is that he looks the part and thus at some point he will have a good game. That is how we think. And that is not how NZ that approach it. I challenege anyone on this site to please inform me of the last time Eben had a good game in green? Where was he on Saturday? Lomp even tackled better than he did. That is how we pick forwards in SA. It's based on size and reputation. It's retarded. I'm constantly reminded of how little value experience seems to actually have. It didn't help us in the WC and it won't help us now.

 Plum you could say the same for Willie and Lood, these 3 guys have become the new auto selection. Form is not important because we can play them into form in the starting 15. What a **** joke

 Guys, the Bokke "froze" again last week. They'll be back to normal this week.

Nah, I think it's a deeper problem Draad. I think there are leadership issues. I think there are ego issues around game plans between what Coetzee sees working for the Lions and what he wants to do becauee he copies the Lions peoppe will wonder why he is even there. I don't think the team is a unit and I think they are insecure.

 Wardad - you ask me about what I regard as to the requirement fro a forward and y problem is with two issues relating to forward play.   In the first instance you have the Tight 5 - here you should have both physical strength to compete in the set pieces and a degree of athletism - especially in the lock position.  That is why I have constant question marks as to the question of AB Tight 5 forwards.   The NZ situation is they prefer athleticism to physical competitiveness - and the situation is that NZ players in those positions are not physically strong enough, with the result that the ball possession issue is that it is are that NZ get 50% ball possession - normally it is substantially less.   That  is why I say that competitiveness in set pieces in the case of the AB's - if they a re more competitive - the situation would be a virtually unbeatable AB side beating every side in the world by a wide margin.  As to the loosies the AB loosies are sublime - while the SA loosies are seriously defective and pace-deficient.        

 If they selected this physical tight five the compromise would be the speed aroundthe park, skills and cohesion between fwds, loosies and backs. They seem to do OK on their own ball and have the balance of players to put so much pressure on the opposition plays that turn overs result, these more often than notresult in points. If I were an AB I would be pretty happy with the way things were going. Their brains trust has a significant advantage over us in that they all have brains   

 Well, of course the team is not a team yet and of course Strauss is not the right captain, but we should have walked it despite these small issues.