CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 04:57#2
Mozart
TYhe preoblem is the defense of Pietersen is a major problem and he was part of one atatcking move in one of the tests he played in - for the rest he was as dead as a doornail in attack. I do not think that Pietersen is the answer at 13 - he is going to fail in defense and with an under-performing De Villiers also in the backline - we are going to be toast in the test against both the ABs and the Aussies.
You blame Reinach as a failure in the Super 15 play-off - but failed to indicate where he failed - basically personal prejudice at play.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 05:44#3
A view shared by Gavin Rich among others
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Sept 2014, 10:39#4
JP is a possibilty at 13 where he is dangerous on attack. JP is too slow for a wing. Worth a shot dispite fears re defence.
Reinach was so good in the Super 15 that he has earned a Bok call up. He is a brilliant prospect and would greatly aide the Boks attacking power not least of all because he wont kick so much ball away. He will leave poor Aaron Smith eating dust.
with a few more attacking palyers Willie will not be the sole focus of attention.
Of course Meyer might want to think of tweaking his loose trio as well although the current one is very good. Whitely comes into the picture is you relly want to run the ball.Brining in Lood of course and dropping wee Matfiled is a must.Another question is do you rest Beast and Jannie and play them off the bench.ie should Meyer go for broke.
Unfortunately being shafted by a RAW against the wobblies and then being down to 13 men and conceding a try to the hapless wee abs has ment our chances of winning the RC are about zero. One win down under and we would have been in with a great chance. It's these consistent RAWs every RC that are so distorting the test records as to make them meaningless. It has become a total farce.
I see the Argies are likely to be thinking along these lines very shortly as they have experienced the wobblies crooking them in the scrums consistently and getting away with it. Then there was the charge down try debacle where they were robbed of a crucial try. Welcome to the club Argies!!!! This is what you can expect when playing NZ and even OZ. Bent refs favouring these two down under sides and particulary nz.
Sad but true.
15 Sept 2014, 10:49#5
I hope your not suggesting slotting JP in at 13?
He's not an international center and let's face it, his days at wing are done with. Why Meyer's insisting on yet another elderly hasbeen is beyond me. One would think that once burnt twice shy ... not with our fool of coach. He keeps placing his open hand on the stove plate.
Serfontein is getting better and better there. He's the most solid 13 we've had in the Bok backline for ages. He has an awesome work rate a great step and just needs to be left to settle. It's only his second full match at 13 and so far so good.
He deserves his place there.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 10:54#6
Beeno
Despite the bent refs story - whixch may have been home crowd favour seeking by the referees concerned - the issue in our game against Oz was more that shocker by Morne Steyn that really cost us the match. If Morne kicked out of touch that penalty - Habana would have bacome back onto the field and we would have recovere the ball from the line out and retained poseesion subsequently.
The reason was in fact Morne's debacle and that is a fact. Not the first time either that his tendency to not kick balls out of touch when taking penalties came too the fore. It happned 7 times in nine previous tests - something his admirers never wanted to admit amd in at least two of those cases tries were scored against us in one match - leading to a bonus point win by the AB's last year in Eden Park.
If here was one thing that decided the outcome of this years RC that was it. Morne always was the handicap that destroyed our chances in the RC - it has happened three times now, ie in 2012, 2013 and 2014 - I hope we have seen the last of him in a Springbok Jersey.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Sept 2014, 11:19#8
Ou maaaikie you are being really dumb. That tackle by Vermuelen was legit. It was penalised. It earned the wallbys three points they should not have had. Get it into you head that alone means you ought to subtaract 3 points from the wobblies score and we should still have won DISPITE MORNES ERROR. Add in the rediculous yellow and MORNE'S ERROR IS EVEN MORE IRRELEVANT.
USE SOME LOGIC OU MAAAIKIE. If the ref had got it right we would have won diste the error by Morne. FACTYour take on the RWC match against oz shows the same stupidity. I have probably never seena Bok side more dominant. BUT Bryce lawrence made error oafter error and costs us abagful of points. That halfwit cerudunce windpomp then balmes Rossouw for conceding that penalty and said taht lost us the matc. How dumb was that staememt. But itsa dumb as youare being.Ou maaaikie youare sinking toa terrible low.Up your game you dont want to be bracketed with cerudunce windpomp!!!
To illustrate. Your opponents are 1 point ahead. BUT the ref has robbedyour team of 40 points. But your Morne misses a goal kick in front of the posts. Who is the main culprit. You would balme more for missing 3 points no doubt and ignore te 40 the ref denied your team. Bwahahahahahhahahaha can anything be more stupid.
15 Sept 2014, 11:24#9
Beeno you seriousley need to stop acting all innoccent and taking the moral high ground regarding bent refs. I mean if your seriousley suggesting professional referees who go through preleimenary procedures, and standards. If your really suggesting match officiating is corrupt, thats a serous allegation just saying. And lets not act Sa being Nz bitch for the past three years is because its heavily ref assisted, or cynical play from Nz. We all know Sa hv bn using illegal scrum tactics, and diving into rucks for years. And Sa home refs are just as biast. Just an observation that your acting like Sa and its fans are hard done by, which is bs as it happens everywhere. As for Sa backline.
15. Willie Le Roux 14. Cornal Hendricks 13. JP Peterson 12. Jdv 11. Habana 10. Pollard 9. Reinach
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Sept 2014, 11:43#10
3 I Q could you do some editing of your rediculous post.
After watching us being shafted against the wobblies and the Argies suffering a similar fate against the wee abs -and the huge outcry that followed I fully support the refs being taken to task and any efforts to clean up the game.Stop trying to sweep it all under the carpet. There is little doubt the last thing the down under oaks , and particualry nz want, is a clean up of the game - gieven how theyare benefitting. Man Oz got away with murder in the scrums and this cost teh Argies a first test win!!!!!!!!!!!! Its a flipping disgrace!!!!!!
That ref fiasco against the Boks versus wobblies cost us the RC. Bad luck cost us a win against the abs but so be it luck is a fickle thing. But dont get all smug and think you deserved a win kbbs.
15 Sept 2014, 14:47#11
It's interesting to see that Meyer is talking about next year's world cup all of a sudden. I think that the boks has gone backwards this year. They have simply not been convincing enough. Nearly lost to the Pumas twice this year and not to mention Wales. Then two losses against Aus and NZ where the boks had a chance to win both games but blew it.
I think Reinach is better than Hougaard but his service around the rucks and scrum is poor. The only scrummy in SA at the moment is Van Zyl who's progress has been slowed down due to the favoritism that Hougaards gets.
Meyer missed a trick by leaving Kocket, the guy has been one of the best scrummies in France for the past 3 years.
As much as I despise Piet Helium, he did managed to get the players to stay at home. Something that Meyer has failed at. The players that are at home ends being played into the ground and those abroad tends to regress.
So based on the squad Meyer has picked, I would use this time to give the youngsters some more experience.
1 Trevor2 Strauss (Captain )3 Van Der Merwe4 Estebeth5 Lood6 Coetzee7 Vermeulen8 Whiteley9 Reinach (Should be Van Zyl)10 Pollard11 Habana12 Serfontein (De Villiers)13 De Allende 14 Hendriks15 Le Roux
We really need to start investing into a decent center combination and if De Allende and Serfotein is the future then they need exposure now. Not point in patching it up with JP.
15 Sept 2014, 15:44#12
@Kingcorn. I also like Kockott and agree that he has matured substantially in France. I wouldn't say that you wrong when you say that he is among the top 3 in France. I just think that it would be more correct to say that he is the third best. I think that Parra (Clermont Auvergne) and Machenaud (Racing Metro) are both just ahead of him.
I also do not think that PDV himself had a lot to do with the players not moving abroad. It was different circumstances and there were a hell of a lot of players who left even in his time. The difference was that the players who left were not that "high profile" as the ones who are leaving nowadays. They were either very young players who have not yet made the big scenes in SA or guys who were looking to build a pension. It was always on the cards that there was going to be a massive exodus after RWC2011. We have to remember that the exchange rate had a hell of a lot to do with it.
ZAR/£
2008 - 13.97
2009 - 12.71
2010 - 11.29
2011 - 11.32
2012 - 13.31
2013 - 15.92
2014 - 17.74
Add to the above the fact that big money was p umped into European and Japanese rugby clubs and the amounts keep on getting bigger and bigger, especially France.
There is not a lot HM or SARU can do about that. Racing Metro is currently busy putting a deal together to lure Giteau from Toulon which would make him the highest paid rugby player ever. The highest, at this stage is around €700K per annum. The offer for Giteau will be about €1.1M, IIRC. This is the kind of amounts that are flying around. I have said on many occasions that Habana earns €50K per month. That is 712,559.39 ZAR per month.
15 Sept 2014, 16:25#14
I'm sorry but HouGat is useless. He's even a poor Currie Cup player. His best position is left back ... in the change room. He should seriously consider a career change. Rugby is not a strength of his ... as we once again saw this past weekend.
Why Kockett isn't in the mix is a mystery to us all.
JP is too slow for wing and he isn't a test center. He should keep HouGat company in the change room. Maybe the two of them can have a game of Snap or Rummy while the real men play test match rugby outside.
Leave the current center pair as is. Especially Serfontein at 13. Jean is good enough to take us through to the world cup and that as captain.
Then the likes of Sithole, Jordaan, Howard, Hanekom Mnisi and De Jongh as well as De Allende can be brought forward to contest a spot at 12 & 13. Right now we need consistency. We cannot afford to chop and change every match.
Our 10 is sorted and so is our 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.
We only need a decent 9 now and our backline is set.
Then on to the forwards. 3, 6 & 7 and obviously a good look at our bench.
There's hope boys. Even with this fool of a coach.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 16:28#15
Oh sure lets keep Jan who played a toothless S15....hasn't beaten one tackle in tests this season , except against overmatched Scotland and has no subtlety in his passing. An attacking non factor. And much is spoken about his defence on Saturday , but he was the player who hesitated getting across and then failed to put McCaw away.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 16:30#16
Dave
Mozart is married to the idea of Jean de Villiers and tried desperately to avoid discussing him by referreing to others. I went into stats and found that De Villiers was in fact -
* not effective in attack in any of the 4 tests in th RC this year;* deficient in defense and that he missed too many tackles; and* comparative to what he produced this year in Super 15 and in the tests - he really was substantially poorer than last year.
When you look at the attacking play component - Serfontein at 12 put is a much stronger set of performance in the June tests than De Vuilliers did in subsequent tests. My own impression is that Serfontein is totally out of position at 13 - he lacks the attacking skills in that position - but is a natural 12 and that is where he should be played.
I always was against the premature replacement of De Villiers - since he did very well last year. However, he is so much poorer in performance this year - that I think the time to change has come.
Mozart is totally prejudiced against De Allende - but in the two tests he played in he was considerably better in attack than any other SA center and that is a fact of life. He keeps on harping on the 2 tackles he missed in his first test - but that was played in terrible weather conditions and the outcome of the misses were not really of importance. he then had to try and find a missed tackle to blame on De Allende in the Salta test - and use some lied to get his message accross. The moment you challenge him on that - he goes quiet or continues to lie.
It is a fact that Pietersen was found wanting at 12 in 2012 and that he missed too many crucial tackles in the June tests. He for instance did not even attempt a tackle on Cuthbert leading to a Welsh try - Cuthbert beat him on the inside with speed. That shows that Pietersen lost too much speed to be effective.
In essense I agree with your backline - but for Hougaard - he is just not up to the standard he showed in 2-11 anymore and he is far too cluless and inaccurate - especially in his kicking game and reading of the game to be effective at scrummie.
15 Sept 2014, 16:41#17
As I've said, this is his second full test match at 13 and we haven't seen anyone more solid for quite some time ... so yes ... let's keep him at 13.
JP is a plodder so wing is out ... he is also a retreaded 13, really not suitable when you can have a natural producing a far better overall performance.
Forget about the old and tired JP.
15 Sept 2014, 16:52#19
Tell me Mike ... when would you suggest we start building toward next year's world cup ... or have you written 2015 off and are in fact targeting 2019?
You wanna get rid of our captain & best 12 ... NOW?
How many test matches do we have left to blood a new 12 before the WC?
Have you lost your friggin mind?
Please try to use a little more head in future.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 17:03#20
CC
To be quite frank - De Villiers performances has so badly deteriorated since last year - i cannot see him last another year on test level - sad to say. Hids defense has gone out of the window and his attacking play has been poor - so what must we do about next year. I suggest we start phasing in a player to replace him - elsewhere I suggested by playing Serfontein at 13 for half a game - starting with Jean at 12. I really has expected much more from jean - but his performances in Super 15 and in the CR tests has been anything but acceptable.
I do agree with Mozart - you need a center that can break lines and make space for other players - but Serfonmtein is NOT a 13 - in June he was a very effective 12 - so I think his future lies at 12 - not 13.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 17:10#21
Mozart
Serfotein hessitated before getting across to tackle Mc Caw - Pietersen is a plodder and he would not have gotten there without hessitation. Pietersen essentially failed at 13 in the June tests and bar one move - where he was put into space he showed zero a ttacking ability. From an attacking perspective he is nothing better at 13 than Engelbrecht was - and Engelbrecht was unacceptble at 13.
Meyer can select him at 13 and he would be a failure in that position - Conrad Smith and Kuridrani will play the fool with him in that position.
15 Sept 2014, 17:11#22
Granted ... test centers must penetrate the defense, however it's for the inside man to create the space, create the opportunity for his outside man.
Look how impressive Fruean looked with SBW on his inside. Look how useless and ineffective Fruean looked when SBW left.
Question ... how effective has Jean De Viilliers been all these years at creating space? I've said it before and will say it again, he is the main reason we don't have an attacking backline.
That's why Willie needs to come in at 10 and 12. To create.
I am not suggesting we drop Jean. It's too late now.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 17:14#23
cc
Is it too late - I am not sure about that one?
15 Sept 2014, 17:25#24
Sure Mike ... let's start from prop and work our way through using the next 6 or so tests to get a well oiled unit to compete at the world cup next year.
Good luck with that.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 17:38#25
CC
I hate to say this - but De Villiers is not well-oiled - he is ceraking along and could be much worse nxt year - and we will have no well-oiled unit in any event.
15 Sept 2014, 17:40#26
I'm not suggesting that we throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm sure Meyer will stick to his experience side, but I think that we have two pointless test left which we can still win with a few younger players that have more energy. Give Bissie, Jannie, De Villiers and co a break. Create some competition for spots and bring the guys back for the Grand Slam tour, rebuild with the aim of winning every game next year. My first objective would be to beat the All Blacks, the next would be to win the grand slam and then beat NZ in NZ before the world cup. Those are massive milestones, but Meyers record in the championship has been extremely poor. Every South African coach that was half successful, managed to beat NZ in NZ.
So give the old guys a break, inject with some youngsters who have part of the squad long enough. Nothing to lose
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 17:56#27
It's an appealing argument Corn. But we saw all those guys in the S15......I honestly can't think of any great talent I'd like to see in green and gold except Senatla.....and in the pack Willemse.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 18:02#28
g foeitog
What Mozart see through his dim eyes is littered by prjudice - so what can one expect from him.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Sept 2014, 18:49#29
Don't be surprized to see De Jongh back in tbe mix at the end of the year. He's running some nice lines lately.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 18:53#30
De Jongh is technically the best 13 in Bok rugby.
15 Sept 2014, 19:22#31
Yep, De Jongh is performing well in the currie cup, but its only the currie cup and I have learned over the years never to take it as yard stick. Players get exposed at super rugby level. Would like to see the Lions and WP play the same brand of rugby and winning against foreign teams to judge whether their players deserve to be in the bok setup, but then Super rugby form aren't always a good indicator.
Look at Nonu, he always plays below par in the Super Rugby teams, but are a different players for the all blacks. Hendriks was average for the cheetahs but excelled with the boks.
If you are a national selector then you have to take risk if you feel that the provinces aren't using the players to their full potential.
Would still like to see De Allende given a fair run at 13. Really think that we need the following backline
9 Reinach, 10 Pollard, 11 Habana, 12 Serfontein, 13 De Allende, 14 Hendriks, 15 Willie
Drop Hougaard and bring Vermaak or somebody with a decent service
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 20:07#33
So now HMs views are worthwhile Sapp? Step has made 10 runs without beating a tackle....that may be ok in your book, in my book that's called toothless.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 20:36#34
Mozart
De Jongh - are you plain stupid or idiotic as well? De Jongh - the weakest defending center in SA - whose line breaks are non-exisent and goes AWOL in tests. Techniclly the ebst center - what a joke.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 20:37#35
Mozart
De Jongh - are you plain stupid or idiotic as well? De Jongh - the weakest defending center in SA - whose line breaks are non-exisent and goes AWOL in tests. Techniclly the ebst center - what a joke.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Sept 2014, 21:55#36
Oom ...what is the principle behind Mathematical Induction. It applies here...can you spot the application? Or are you a dumb, uneducated provincial bureaucrat?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Sept 2014, 23:30#37
Moxzart
Stick to rugby moron. And when you stick to rugby - make sensible comments - not moronic ones.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Sept 2014, 01:06#38
No HM is clueless but he is obviously a big fan of Jan - I was just pointing that out given your utter rubbish regarding the guy.
He has not once received the ball in space so don't speak shit. If he had had an attacking opportunity and squandered it then fair enough....but what is glaringly obvious is that you don't seem to comprehend the fact that the art of making an impression as a centre at test level is a tough ask.....look no further than the fact that over the past few years players like Jean, de Jongh, Taute, Fourie and de Allende have made no more of an impression than Jan has and as much as you want to deny it the last 13 to make an attacking impression at for the Boks was JJ against NZ. But he too found it a tough ask leading up to that test.
Modern structured defences afford centres with very little space....take Fikitoa for instance he set the world alight at s15 level but struggled to replicate that at test level.
Fact is Jan proved he had the goods ages ago and your take on his ability is pure shit. He needs investment not discarding or judged after two solid performances out of position at 13.
Get a bloody grip old man your negativity regarding our youngsters is tiresome
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
16 Sept 2014, 02:17#40
Next you will be telling us Smith had a good game......Moffie give the stats a rest and just stick to the actual game.......Smith did nothing of note, not a single th ing
