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FORUM / RUGBY /  Difficult loose trio poser for Meyer

Difficult loose trio poser for Meyer

Started by Beeno111 REPLIES300 VIEWS· 01 Sept 2012, 19:58
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Sept 2012, 19:58
#1
01 Sept 2012, 19:58#1

Ex Sport 24

Cape Town - The Springboks find themselves in a highly unusual position just over a week out from their encounter with Australia in Perth: all three loose forward positions could be said to be “up for grabs”.

And this in a department where the country, traditionally, has been so strongly served for many years, even if injuries are playing a major role in instability during the 2012 international campaign.

Give some credit to already embattled Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer ... he seems to have acted reasonably decisively to address shortcomings in the loose trio that were all too evident in the 16-16 draw with Castle Rugby Championship rookies Argentina in Mendoza last weekend, even if there is also a case for saying he dug the hole in the first place by assembling a combination overloaded in brawn at the expense of skill and stealth.(Wake up the two new men have even more brawn -Vermuelen and Louw are big loosies!)

All three men who started in jerseys six to eight and were outsmarted and even out-bludgeoned by the Pumas - Marcell Coetzee, Jacques Potgieter and Willem Alberts - do remain in the broad squad mix for the next assignment. 9More nonsense)

But by adding the only recently fit-again Duane Vermeulen and British-based Francois Louw to his plans, Meyer has either consciously or subconsciously signalled that a shake-up will be both desired and necessary against the Wallabies.

The next challenge for the coach is not only picking the right trio, but deciding who exactly to offer each number, because most of his latest resources at loose forward offer pretty high levels of versatility - something that is both admirable but also potentially complicating and confusing.

The most obvious alteration, astute critics probably concur, will be the demotion from the starting XV of Potgieter.

A strong and wholehearted player, it is true, the Bulls basher has nevertheless been rather exposed at Test level for subtlety.

Although perhaps not the person best equipped to make this judgement, SA-based Wallabies wing legend David Campese suggested on rugby talk show Boots & All this week that Potgieter “plays more like a prop” in the tight-loose, implying that the Boks are obsessed with traditional, yet also too predictable, beat-‘em-into-submission strengths.

If he does get the chop, Alberts ought to shift back to the unglamorous but important blind-side flank role to which he seems greatly better suited than No 8, (Agree) where his best footballing intentions are impeded by a lack of necessary pace out of the blocks.

That begs the question of who, in turn, will assume eighthman duties against Australia if Alberts does make the positional switch.

Vermeulen will be an attractive option here for Meyer, especially as he has apparently always wanted to gauge his credentials at Test level.

The drawback is that the big unit from Nelspruit has only made two curtailed comeback appearances in the Currie Cup for Western Province after his long-term absenteeism.

Yet Meyer may bank on getting, say, 50 suitably combative minutes out of Vermeulen in Perth, before accepting that his man may well run out of puff.

An alternative might be to introduce him to the Test fray off the bench in the second half, but then either of Coetzee or Louw, who can play at No 8 but are more accustomed generally to side-of-scrum slots, would have to be stationed there.

Speaking of those two, the selection plot only thickens, because who plays as the specialist open-sider in Perth is another mild poser.

Coetzee has been a constant there under Meyer’s Bok tenure, and mostly done a sound, sometimes dynamic job, although last Saturday was perhaps his least effective in the role - he, too, has prior experience of No 8 and blind-sider and can come into the reckoning for both.

Similarly Louw is just as comfortable at six and seven, and has also extended his own repertoire by doing some No 8 duty for Bath.

Fielding both men against Australia could bring benefits, given that it would offer the Boks two fetchers, in certain senses.

Lineout factors
have to be brought into consideration as well, especially with such world-class practitioners in this department as Juan Smith and Pierre Spies not available, and here Vermeulen (by the way, he can also feasibly be considered at No 7!) could be of great benefit to the Boks.

Just another snag to contemplate is that both Vermeulen and Louw (the latter only in English pre-season) are desperately low on game-time - can you risk having them in the same trio in a Test at this stage?

By contrast, have people like Coetzee and Alberts, bearing in mind their much-travelled Super Rugby obligations with the Sharks right to the bitter end of that competition, almost had a touch too much rugby for the moment and might actually benefit from a spot of “impact” play for the Boks?

These are all things Meyer has to weigh up.

Who knows which of the array of combination options is tempting him most right now, but if he went for a starting brew of Coetzee at six, Alberts at No 7 and Vermeulen at No 8, with someone like Louw lurking on the bench, he should have his bases pretty covered

I think he comes up with the right answer?

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
01 Sept 2012, 20:49
#2
01 Sept 2012, 20:49#2

IMO given vermeulens lack of gametime, its insane to play him, even with the Boks depth dilemmas, but i can understand his exclusion if he had played more gamtime. its a big mistake IMO cos i dont think he will have the match fitness to last 40mins and be effective, but considering the problems they do have, i would play him off the bench, if the game is neck and neck then unleash him at around the 65th minute mark where he knows hes got fudge all time to impress and no pressure to have to keep playing more then 15mins.

my loose frowards for the Boks would be 6 f louw, 7 m coetzee, 8 w alberts, 19 d vermeulen.

most would prefer to play alberts at blinside, but IMO he can play 8 very well, hes mainly in the team anyway for his ball carrying and roadblock defence anyway.
alberts in the first two england tests was a man on a mission, alberts in the first two puma tests was pfffffffffffft. if alberts continues to perform in an average fashion, then just take vermeulen of the bench, but if alberts is on fire and the Boks are leading by a healthy margin, then ease vermeulen into the game.

the wallabies are the best fo the three SANZAR teams when it come to pilfering and the Boks have shown great weakness in this area in all of meyers matches, scary when u consider its only the pumas and a rebuilding england team. so louw is a must have, i dont consider coetzee a fetcher, IMO his game is so suyited as a blinde side flanker then an openside. a geat ball carrier and dfender with a high workrate around the field and in the breakdowns, exactly what i want from No6 (or No7 in SA).

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Sept 2012, 21:01
#3
01 Sept 2012, 21:01#3

saSUE there are a number of possibilities.

One could also have louw 6 - Coetzee 8 and Alberts 7. vermuelen is not match fit but he should have say 50 minutes in him?

We need Vermuelen to have a meaningful role versus nz.  Although nobody has twigged our problem in the pack is the two rather passive props. Meyer must tell them their days are numbered unless they get going.

I am expecting a much better showing against Oz.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
01 Sept 2012, 21:40
#4
01 Sept 2012, 21:40#4

@ben10,

that is a combination that i wouldnt mind either, but if i had a say, i would put alberts at 8. the option he gives at scrumtime to be able to pick that ball up and crash it ahead makes him more suited then both louw and coetzee, while on defence, coetzee and louw on the side of the scrums would be able to unbind quicker and shut down most offensive moves or help strengthen the backline or get to any brakedowns that occur quicker as well.

im not sold that vermeulen is ready for 50mins of international rugby let alone a test match against one of the IRC teams, i would be surprised if he could handle 30 mins of that level TBH.

im not sure what to expect from the Boks against the wallabies, i was surprised when the Boks didnt get a 4 try bonus point in newlands, so imagine my shock at the mendoza experience, o_O
if meyer persists in the smae ol tactics, then the Bok forwad pack really need to front up for the entire 80 mins, or the wallabies as bad asaverage as they have been will have the advantage with the home ground turf.
both teams will be desperate, but i guess from an All Blacks point of view it would be better if the wallabies win as that will help extend the All Blacks IRC table lead.

SM
SS-MoleRookie59 posts
01 Sept 2012, 23:13
#5
01 Sept 2012, 23:13#5

 6. Deon Fourie- Fetcher and carrier

7. Coetzee- fetcher and carrier

8. Alberts- Carrier

 

Bench- Vermuelen. Replace the worst performer after 60 minutes. Possibale start against the All Blacks

Orange Peeler- Louw. He has never played well for the boks and he is just starting the Northern Hemisphere season

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Sept 2012, 23:33
#6
01 Sept 2012, 23:33#6

Beeno10 the idea of deon Fourie playing 6 for the Boks is seeming less and less silly.

Louw was quite good in the world cup I thought. My concern is that we only have one fast loosie - Coetzee.

And of course Louw and Vermuelen are shor on game time.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Sept 2012, 01:28
#7
02 Sept 2012, 01:28#7

Sasu

I agree with ypou about the loose forward combination of Louw, Coetzee and Alberts and Vermeulen on the bench.   The other player I would select is Elstadt - but he only returned after injury today.

By the way - I watched the Taranaki - Tasman game this morning.  brilliant performance by both teams, and it brought home the real issue of running rugby performance into perspective.   However, it is possible for SA Teams to play that styyle of rugby as well - but we always shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to selection of teams.  

Let me say one thing.   In the 1970's and 1980's Western province was the top team in SA insofar as all-round rugby performance was concerned.   Over the past decade the situation changed and the result was dull and uninspirational rugby.   The WP team was lucky to have to replace some of the players in the Springbok squad and the result was a brilliant flowing rugby game in which Western Province beat the Bulls 42-6.   It can be done - I have serious reservations about selection critria used for the Springbok team. 

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
02 Sept 2012, 04:26
#8
02 Sept 2012, 04:26#8

@clevermike,

yeah that match was exciting to wath, i really enjoyed it. taranaki are playing hawkes bay next week in another ranfurly shield challenge, so thats going to be one exciting match too, especially as hawkes bay just beat counties manakau in my other favourite ITM match of the week.

like u said western province bulls game showed that SA rugby can play that expansive game too, but its all in how the coaches apply the fundamentals, from the lower grades up. IMO to much attention to structures and not enough encouragment on players to back themselves.
the talent is all there, but coaches especially those who are desperate for results like meyer and coetzee, will always resort to a sure thing, or what the percieve is the best way of winning. nothing wrong with that i guess, end of the day all that matter is the win.
i remember when i first made my high schools first XV, we scored one try the whole season and thanks to the meanest boot of our flyhalf did we go the season undefeated. everyone knew we would have been fudged without him, but we didnt care, cos we were the district champs, lol.

MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
02 Sept 2012, 04:28
#9
02 Sept 2012, 04:28#9

@clevermike,

yeah that match was exciting to wath, i really enjoyed it. taranaki are playing hawkes bay next week in another ranfurly shield challenge, so thats going to be one exciting match too, especially as hawkes bay just beat counties manakau in my other favourite ITM match of the week.

like u said western province bulls game showed that SA rugby can play that expansive game too, but its all in how the coaches apply the fundamentals, from the lower grades up. IMO to much attention to structures and not enough encouragment on players to back themselves.
the talent is all there, but coaches especially those who are desperate for results like meyer and coetzee, will always resort to a sure thing, or what the percieve is the best way of winning. nothing wrong with that i guess, end of the day all that matter is the win.
i remember when i first made my high schools first XV, we scored one try the whole season and thanks to the meanest boot of our flyhalf did we go the season undefeated. everyone knew we would have been fudged without him, but we didnt care, cos we were the district champs, lol.

GR
greenClub Pro179 posts
02 Sept 2012, 11:48
#10
02 Sept 2012, 11:48#10

Willem Alberts really battles at number eight, because of a lack of pace, but he is a perfect blind-side flanker in the traditional big ball-carrying Springbok mould. We definitely need a fetcher in the pack and with Bismarck out, we really lack in this department, so I would definitely opt for Flouw at 6.

 

Number eight is where we have the biggest dilemma...Vermeulen is untested in test match rugby and he is lacking game-time. On the other hand, I have never seen Coetzee play at eight, but he does display some of the qualities required of a test eight, ie. pace, power and ball skills. I would therefor start with Coetzee at eight, with Vermeulen off the bench for the first game against the Wobblies and if Duane performs well, I would give him the eight jersey the following week against the ABs where the extra grunt that he brings, will be a great asset.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Sept 2012, 18:09
#11
02 Sept 2012, 18:09#11

 The problem is all the players thus far.....Daniel, Coetzee, Alberts, Potgieter....have all faded at crucial times. None of these guys are world beaters.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,301 posts
02 Sept 2012, 21:38
#12
02 Sept 2012, 21:38#12

 the only thing that is certain of the loose forward combination at this stage is that Dumb Potgieter should not be apart of it. I would rather have half of the other loose forwards in the SA teams Super 15. 

— END OF THREAD —

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