Disaster for the Sharks Team ahead

The Sharks team as announced have one change that indicates thngs significantly.   They moved Steyn to 13.   It is a pity for Pietersen - he will be lucky to see any balls passed tohim by Steyn.    At lest the ball hogger can be  one place further out in the backline.

However, that could entail a further problem.  Steyn this year showed defnce deficiencies and his pace is slow.   You need a good defnder and abov all more speed at 13 than Steyn have.   Big disaster looming - I see missed tackles galore and nothing on attack on his part. 

A lot of theories re Frans will be tested. Is he slow or has he some pace. Can he put in some good hits.

Certianly he has tackled very well in then past. Will he be gassed. No place to hide and frans must shape up.  I also recall in tthe WC some great passes by Frans.

Mike you have to live in hope. Sharkies are very badly effected by injuries. However I recall the genuis coach Rassie having 17 squad memebers out by the time he got back from down under. He regrouped and won a number o fgames. Of course uo Plum is not in the same league as Rassie as a coach but perhaps he can hang in there a bit.

Of course when I mentioned all the Stormers guys out then it was labelled an excuse according to some dumboes I was posting with at the time.  A number of them were shark supporters - think Dork! Bwahahhahahahahaha

Beeno

You obviosuly missed out on what I said about my support of teams under the issueof the Kiwi psychological problems.  That should clarify the issue substantaially.

My problem is not what Steyn was two or more years ago - it is with what he produces now is  important.  He came back from France in very poor shape and that is a fact.  Since then he showed nothing in either tests or the Super 15 and in fact was a liability - rather than an asset - for both teams he played for.

In the games he played in Steyn made 36 tackles and missed 6.   He was very poor in the Kings game when during the 60 minutes on the field he went AWOL and only made 2 tackles.   For an inside center that was a bad show.  Although there were few backline movements on th part of the kings Jordaan made 5 tackles.   The thing is a bit cock-eyed simce you expect more tackles from a 12 than from a 13.   Since the Kings game his performance deteriorated badly.   He missed 3 tackles in the Brumbies game and went on and playing at full-back and only half the one game at center - he made 5 tackles and missed 3.

Saffex will never accept that - but it is a fact.   Steyn has a speed deficiency and his tackling is on the poor side.  I hope there are no problems on those two aspects of the game against the Chiefs - but am rather pessimistic about potential improvement.      

Here we have DomMike sticking his foot in it again - what a complete idiot this man is. Does he actually know anything about rugby I ask with tears in my eyes.

The only good call Plum has made is dropping the useless Franco v/d Merwe.......just a pity he has not done the same with Bosman and Ndungane.

Leaving Coetzee out for Mtembu is just plain stupid, as is Burden ahead of Cooper and McLeod ahead of Reinach.

I can see why the Sharks fans are calling for Plums head, the man is stale and has lost the plot.

At least the Sharks will have some physicality at 13 now, its just a pity the useless Bosman has been retained at 12

Saffex - Dunce of the year

You really are completely clueless - Steyn is really the one player that Plumtree was forced to play.  He was useless wherever he played for the Sharks this year and did nothing when playing for the Boks last year.   The halo you put above his head is an illusion.

Plumtree probably have given up on the idea of winning the coming game - that being the reason for most of the changes.   He is likely to drop Steyn next week - because if their is one guarantee - he will fail at 13 as he has failed at 12 and 15.   And by the way dunce - he is too slow for 12, far too slow for 13 and massively to slow for full back.  

Maybe - just maybe - there are some method in Plumtree's selection.   He is forced by injuries to use Steyn - but some of the other players were seriously under-performing.  Coetzee is one of those - so giving hm a timely  warning by letting him play off the bench would maybe alert him to the fact that he is not irreplacable.   

I think that Plumtree is bearing in mind that Reinach and Cooper are key players for the rest of the tour and is trying to protect them from injuries.   

Next week the Sharks should be strengthened by new arrivals and the worst players - like Steyn - can be dropped from the team.  He will no doubt call for a replacemnt for Jordaan.

Capice - stupid dunce. 

in my first comment on the jordan out for season thread, i mentioned that i wouldnt be surprised to see frans steyn at 13 with bosman, obviously plumtree is stalking my blogs, LMAO, o_O

but i think steyn will go well at 13, he has a lot to offer and hasnt been playing too bad, some positives for shark fans is hes miles away from his best, so he can only get better.
ive got a real good feeling about this bosman steyn combo. but theyre going to be under the pump against the most motivated chiefs outfit in 2013.

Sas there is no positive in Bosman in a side at all, the guy is useless. He brings absolutely nothing to the table with ball in hand.

They should have gone with Frans at 12 with Lindeque at 13

Saffex

Of one thing you can be sure - Plumtree knows exactly what Steyn produces and he is also aware of his ample deficiencies.   If Jordaan was not injured - chanes are that Steyn would not even have been on the bench - he is so bad.   Plumtree for the moment has nobody to fall back on - hence the selection of Steyn at 13.    When a back-up center arrives - Steyn will not even be on the bench.

I would much rather believe Plumtree - who works with Steyn and knows what he actually produces in games - than i believe you about him.  I look at all players without putting them on a pedestal like you do.   I can see the good plays of players - as well as the flops.   I also look at the consequencs of good and bad decisions and plays  by players and what they bring to the party - in other words what happens next in the seqence of plays.

You shout and scream about players you don't likre - for instance De Villiers and Bosman.   You say they are useless - but never gives any informnation to back up your statement.    However, your unending praise of Steyn is supported by nothing to show he deserves it.    You claim he has an inside step - but what positive plays  ever came about because of it.   Can he break the line - no he never does it in spite of his presence.   Are opposition players afraid of his defence - no because he misses  enough tackles.   Does he shows ball sense and read games properly to the advantage of his team - no he rourinely takes wrong decisions that kills attacking movements, because he is one-dimensional.

In the time that Bosman played at 12 - he did twice as much in positive performance than Steyn did togeether in all the matches he played for the Sharks at 12.  Plumtree follows and afterwards studies everything that happens on the field of play.   He is not influenced by presence and aura - he is influenced by what the players actually contributes to the team.   That is why he has been disappointed by Steyn.   He does not invent reasons for failures like you do - he evaluates them properly and deals with them consequently.    That is why he would not play Steyn anywhere if he could help it.

Mike you thick prick, Plum knows exactly what Frans is capable of that is why he is still in the picture despite his incorrect assertion of his player. Had he thought less of Frans, he would have axed him from the touring squad as he has done to Kankan.

But this is all beside the point. The real point is, Plum has fucked up this year. He has invetsed in poor players like Franco v/d Merwe and Bosman, played Daniel out of position at 8 and treated established Boks like Frans and Kankan poorly.

The supporters want his head as they realise he is cocking things up, no more so than his take on Frans.

The Sharks will continue to lose as Plum is making pathetic selections - like retaining the useless Bosman at 12, playing Frans at 13 when he should be at 12, playing slow coach Ndungane on the wing, playing McLeod ahead of Reinach, Mtembu ahead of Coetzee and Burden ahead of Cooper

The man has lost the plot. The Sharks side should have been: 15. Viljoen 14. Sithole 13. Fisher 12. Frans 11. Lindeque 10. Lambie 9. Reinach 1. Herbst 2. Cooper 3. Jannie 4. Bresler 5. Steph du Toit 6. Daniel 7. Deysel 8. Coetzee 

Sadeex

You continue in your normal vein - you go on about what Steyn is capable of without descrining what he is capable of.   You go on further by refusing to see what he is theorerically capable of and what he actually does in practive.   You always goes on about his presence and physicality - but what has that presence and physicality produce for the Sharks - and as a matter of fact for the Spriingboks last year?   Nothing at all in real terms.   We have a player here that never contributed one iota to attacking backline play - who often enough lose out on the defencive side as well.  

He is overweight and slow - so Plumtree is desperately trying to get him to get baclk to fitness.  When he came back from France last year - everybody (me included) thought he was a returning hero - but what happened to this hero.  It took me for instance two games to realize that there is something seriously amiss insofar as his performance is concerned.   He produced nothing in games he played in.   He made a farce of what a top center should do.    I challenge you to give one example of good play by Steyn that had any benefical affect insofar as the Springboks last year and the Sharks this year are concerned.   No theory - just give me one eample of top play by him that had a clearcut benefit for the two teams and I would accept it and look even more carefully at his performances during games and aplogize if I was wrong.    

Do you think that Plumtree ha suddenly lost the plot because he has to put up with non-performers and take action about it.   He is trying desperately to get Steyn to the stage where he lives up to his reputation - that is the problem he has to face.   The man is on a very expensive contract wiith the Sharks - and he is not produvcing the goods - so what must Plumtree do?     Keep on playoig a non-productive player?  

I am  surprised about your comments on Kankowski as well.   Ehat Kankowski is theoretically cpable of and what he produces is something completely different.   He clearly was not the player performing remotely like he did in the past.   He produced as much as Steyn did - virtually nothing of consequence.   

Plumtree was in serious trouble with all the injuries - he called up players from the Lions - and what happened?   the first game he played in Coetzee - after a very good performance got sertiously injured.    Mvovo is out - whitehead is out - Ludick is out,  If those three playes were not injured - do you really think that Steyn would be in the touring party?   The answer is NO he would not be.

Your claim about Plumtree is rubbish - the general public knows what is going oin.  They know what really is wrong and they recognize the deficiencies of players like Steyn and Kankowski.    The funny part is that you - who claim you know rugby - do not realize the real performances of the two players.   That is the long and the short of the situation.   Of all the members on this site - you are the only person who do not think Steyn was a flop at 12 - some may have been less critical than others.  but all said basically he did not produce anything worthwhile.    Matter of fact they realize where he buggered up potential attacking moves by the Sharks backline whenever he had the smallest chance to do so.   I can quote more examples -

*    kicking the ball straight into the hands of Mogg in the Brumbies game. and

*   destroying that attack within  the Cheetahs game by hogging the ball and not passing it, 

are two typical examples that both killed the attacking opportunities of the Sharks  

I am talking about facts - not about theory - so I challenge you to get down and give me some real hard facts in support of your claims.   Actual plays where he showed special skills on the field of play are required. 

Look here you fool, how many more times do I need to go through what he did in his first two games at 12 for the Sharks this S15 huh?

All I know is that what he did in those two games far surpasses the rubbish Bosman has delivered at 12 since then.

Plum is a complete fool these days and has completely messed the Sharks side up. That started with his pathetic public treatment of Frans and now he has moved onto Kankan.

Bosman is a sad excuse for a rugby player. 95% of rugby followers will agree that Frans is a far better option at 12 than useless Bosman. How many games has Bosman had at 12 now and in all those games he has been a passenger.

But you are far too thick to comprehend or recognise this.......you have absolutely no idea when it comes to rugby

I did make some rather controversial statements above about Francois Steyn's performances last year in the tests and in Super Rugby this year. This I did after repeated viewing of the matches he played in and after checking his stats in all matches - which largely corresponded with what I thought really happened. I may not be correct in my assessments - but I asked Saffex for examples of where Steyn did anything of substance in the games he played in. I called for actual examples during matches - which would allow for me to review the assessments made by me.

I think members can all help in the relevant case.   I am open to convincing to consider his performances differently - that is the reason for this request.   Your kins contributions will be sincerly apprecated.

 DomMike, why not just simplify your request.......ask all rugby followers, except that idiot Capone, as he does not qualify, who they would rather see at 12.......useless Bosman or Frans.

My answer is that I would rather have Frans with his hands tied behind his back at 12 than ever having Bosman there

Saffex

I know it is a difficult question for you to answer.  I called for practical examples where  Steyn performed well in games and you come back with a generalized statement about his performance in the first two games in Super 15.   THE QUESTION I ASK RELATES TO PRACTICAL EXAMPLES.   Did he initiate or participate constructively in any specific play which benefited the Sharks team?  

From what I can remember from that game he did not produce anything much - so I did check the info on him as well as his opponent statswise:-

I also looked at the stats of the much-maligned Jordaan and post them for your info as well:-

There really was not much of note in the above stats -  Steynyn made very little headway when he got the ball.   He did pass the ball seven times - but after making some minor headway when he ran with the ball - he crashballed 8 times.  His tackle count was below both those of Ebersihn and Jordaan and he gave away a penalty as well.   I could find no example of any really good play on his part.   Any comments on this one - other thn your nomal rantings about stats?   My summaryis that he had an average game with no real distinctive examples of good top class play.

Now lets look at the second game you say he was good in.  Again I di the same s th above and also look at the stats as well.

This match he got the ball 16 times - kicked it 4 times, passed the ball 6 times and crashballed 6 times.   His tackle count was higher than in th previous game and this tim around he did not give away penalties,   What is alarming is that from an attacking perspective a rookie like De Allende actually performed better than Steyn did.  i couldnot remember any examples of good top class play by him in this game and practical examples is what I look for - nothing else.

THE MATTER OF FACT IS THAT IN BOTH GAMES sTEYN DID NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE THAT MAKES FOR ANY EXAMPLES OF PLAY THAT REALLY DISTINGUISH HIM FROM HIS OPPONENTS.   MATTER IN FACT IN THE SECOND GAME HE WAS FROM AN ATTACKING PERSPECTIVE OUTPLAYED SUBSTNTIALLY BY DE ALLENDE.  

Saffex

Please the request really is simple - to justify your constant praiseing of Steyn - give us exampls where he proved what you say he did so well.   Really I would appreciate that very - very much.

Believe me I do not think Bosman is an ideal choice at 12 - he has serious limitations.  Equally I donot think Steyn is either - he has even more limitations than Bosman.   You would ."rather have Frans with his hands tied behind his back at 12 than ever have Bosman there", but ia that really a realistic assessment  based on fact - or is it another generalization of praise - deserved or undesrved - to Steyn as a player?

I already asked for other Board members to also contribute to the discussion and hope they will.

Fuck me DomMike you are as thick as a plank. I'll keep it short. In game 1 of the S15 this year, Frans twice beat the first defender with a step as he did last Saturday when you stupidly asserted he took the wrong option and did not go wide.

In that first game, after making that first break, Frans took contact in traffic and offloaded perfectly to the support runner - he did that twice. It was perfect for an inside centre operating in traffic. Its something Bosman can only dream of doing. Frans went on to be named in the Bok side of the week at 12 after that round of play. That was followed by him being selected at 12 in the S15 team of the week, in week two.

You get the picture yet dumbass?

Saffex

Hell - but you are thick

Thatisside step breaks went past the first defender and he was tackled by the next one three meters away and th result was a crashball.   I asked for a play that had a substantial impact for the Sharks and you came up with nothing.  Creating space for outside players and giving thm an advantage over their opponents - beating mutliple tackles with his wonderful phyiscal presence you constantly refer to - any eample like that would do.    

The off-loads I watched twice and they were absolute shit.  They actually put the recipient in a worse position than Steyn was when he made them.   The so-called off-loads also resulted in zero advantage to the Sharks.

GET IT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL - I ASKED FOR EXAMPLES WHERE STEYN'S PLAY LED TO SUBBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE TO THE SHARKS TEAM - NOT FOR CASES WHERE EVERY REASONABLE CC CENTER WOULD DO THINGS OF EQUAL VALUE.

You produced no examples at all - matter of fact it shows one thing - no real understanding wjhat consequential play entails.   PEOPLE EXPECT FROM A TOP INTERNATIONAL CENTER 100% MORE THAN IS BEING PRODUCED BY STEYN.

GET THE CORE OF MY ARGUMENT NOW DUMDASS?

DomMike you are too stupid to debate rugby with.......I give up, I cant be bothered.

Fuck me, the player makes Bok team of the week followed by S15 side of the week and this clown still maintains he was poor and that a break and offload in contact is a meaningless contribution by an inside centre operating in traffic.

Let me guess in your wonderfully enlighted rugby opinion, Bosman has added more value at 12 for the Sharks than Frans did - hey dumbass? Man oh man you are useless

Hmmm the boys are getting heated.

Look snapster has it dawned on you Plum is quite possibly not expecting to win this game due to injuries and travel. Hence he is resting some  players and giving others a chance and regrouping as it were for the next match. Its about targeting certain opposition (In other circumstancs he would have gone full out against the chiefs). Also sometimes new guys are keener and fresher.

I hope the sharkies fans will be pleasantly surprised by a reasonable performance.

Beenkop, if a coach ever had that outlook, he should not be coaching

to be objective the sharks pattern this year has not been great....and i for one dont lay the blame at one players feet as a collective the team has not gelled....it seems to me to he a rythm thing as with the constant chop and changing of players has upset the tempo of the sharks play. the sharks pattern is realiant on speed to create there space...that has grinded to a halt.

in terms of franna he has not dipped himself in glory...but in terms of talent his ablity is till there but he needs a kick up the ass as it seems there is a problem with him mentaly more than  anything else

he is overweight but his attitude does not seems where it should be...he needs to pick himself up...but a week is a long time in rugby terms so he needs to redeem himself...

Lol the two love birds at it again! ok guys as to your question who they would rather see at 12.......useless Bosman or Frans.

 On current form i'd rather a solid Bosman before i chance a Fat Frans at 12 ! However as i do respect that Vet Frans's historic skills im really praying he gets his confidence back! lets hope he can at least keep up with Bosman lol.Lets hope thats not asking too much. Strange Plums hasnt used Marius Joubert at 13 but im not sure of the old mans form.

Im with Beeno on this one. Plums is resting a few and the bench is evidence of that. I am however excited to see the new players perform . I  have my doubts wether this team can gel together after so many changes.

Saffex i like your team but without your bf Frans, he can warm the bench and be used as impact or non-impact depending on his form prob the latter. I have no clue on Fishers form either. The rest of the team looks good! I would even chance Viljoen at 10 and lambie at 13 with Frans back at 15.

It looks like the Chiefs are also gambling with 9 changes. Looks like they dont fear the sharks! 

 mrdebbs, I expected nothing less from and ignorant fool like yourself.

Incorrect re. Chiefs changing 9 so not afraid of the Sharks Mr Debbs.. Go have a look at the Chiefs team. They wielded the axe after a poor display against the Reds and all they have done now is change all those players they gave a run against the Waratahs back to a full strength team.

It sounds like they have taken us lightly by making 9 changes but they are actually restoring their "best" team they can field at this stage.

I am slightly disappointed in the Sharks selecting a team that is likely to drop this game as they are showing no confidence in themselves and just restoring the Chiefs confidence after the Aussies bashed them up. In my opinion, we should have put our biggest forwards out there and actually go for the win because Chiefs are also a team lacking confidence now. I am making my way down to the game from Auckland with 11 others (10 Sharks supporters and 1 token Chiefs man) and was hoping to see us give it a good crack. The game is likely to be another wet one for us so hopefully we have learned from last week!! Who knows, everyone has written this Sharks team off but lets hope the 15 on the park dont believe that. We may get a little surprise here!!

boklogic

I am not sure about your statement on their best team.   There is no way that Cane is not their best loosie and also that Afeaki is not their best no 3.   For the rest I am not sure about Williams - he is good - but I suppose they selected him because his speed is sufficnt tpo make Stteyn looks silly when he trie to defend against him.  Between Kahui and Williams they are going to run circles around Bosman and Steyn.   Bosman is a good defender - Steyn this year has been iffy.  

I think there is some method in the madness of Plumtree.   The Cheetahs loosies were all over the Sharks loosies and I think the present combination would be better against ateam like the Chiefs.  I was disappointed about Reinach being on the bench - but if McLeod buggers up badly - Reinach will be on early.

The injury to Jordaan threw the whole backline out of gear and I personally do not expect any real backline performance by the Sharks,  That is why i think the Chiefs would have an easy win.