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FORUM / RUGBY /  Disaster.......outplayed by the Bargies

Disaster.......outplayed by the Bargies

Started by Mozart45 REPLIES926 VIEWS· 27 Aug 2016, 23:56
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2016, 23:56
#1
27 Aug 2016, 23:56#1
Eleven clean breaks to four....476 metres to 342....53% possession to 47%. And we were lucky to be that close. Just as we were very lucky to even win one match in this series...having been consistently outplayed.
We have lost any sense of the team. The core is gone....and now we just have a rabble, coached by incompetents.

So we got a little better after Jantjies, who just confuses the hell out of everybody was yanked. At least without Jantjies our backs could run clean lines at pace instead of trotting up waiting for the surprise offload....but we are so inept:
A fullback who can't catch....he turned the ball over 5 damaging times.
The worst centre pairing in the RC, with Allende missing 4 of his 5 tackles and Mapoe a complete passenger.

The front row looked good while the Beast was on, surprisingly Kitshoff did little against the faltering Herrera.
Lomp was a non event
And who is money in our back row. Mahoje destroyed Hernandez with a dangerous head butt tackle and was high throughout. Louw quiet apart from his brilliant offload. Kriel perhaps a bit better and Whiteley showed again he is not a test player.

This was always on the cards when our 10 year dynasty ended. But those howling for its termination shouldn't complain....they got what they asked for. This is BiltongBek's, Dave's, and Mike's brave new world....a team chosen from lists. Enjoy!

The lesson is the one White drilled into us 10 years ago.....find a team, build it incrementally. Never throw all the balls in the air.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
28 Aug 2016, 00:31
#2
28 Aug 2016, 00:31#2
 My commiserations to you and other Bok fans Moz [ with one exception ] .Along with the Wallies the Boks appear rudderless ATM .Steyne cops a lot of unwarranted criticism in my book and Moz what is this 10 year Dynasty ?
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Aug 2016, 01:56
#3
28 Aug 2016, 01:56#3
 I'm dreading having to read Ashdik's player ratings
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
28 Aug 2016, 02:02
#4
28 Aug 2016, 02:02#4
 Big mistake Morne going for the droppy near the end. From what I saw of the last 20 mins the Argies were tiring and with a mounting injury toll as well, the Boks were looking like scoring whenever they entered the 22.Should have kept ball in hand and ground them down until the inevitable try came.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
28 Aug 2016, 03:07
#5
28 Aug 2016, 03:07#5

 ...SA fans nerves must be shot to pieces after the last two tests - so close..




MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Aug 2016, 03:54
#6
28 Aug 2016, 03:54#6
WD I'm referring to the team that carried us from 2004 to 2014. A team that brought us a WC and a TN. Not as good as NZ, but much better than the rest.
By 2015 we were already changing....centres like Allende and Kriel, Lomp at lock, Malherbe at tighthead. Some of the changes were forced by injuries, others forced by sentiment.

But now  it's the new day so many wanted...and unless I'm mistaken it will all be Coetzee's fault. Not that he isn't totally clueless....but he shares that distinction with so many flavour of the day players.

We latch onto such small things. Kriel made a difference they say....5 tackles, 1 metre in 2 carries, no turnovers made. Really? NZ are fine tuning excellence and we can't even make an honest assessment of our own players.....and I  include almost every SA rugby journalist in that criticism.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Aug 2016, 04:04
#7
28 Aug 2016, 04:04#7
  OPINION | SECOND PHASE Player ratings: Not again Sat, 27 Aug 2016 22:38

OPINION: A brave second half fight back was not enough to rescue the Springboks from suffering an historic 24-26 defeat at the hands of Argentina in Salta.

South Africa trailed by 10 points at half time and managed to outscore their opponents in the final 40 minutes, however, they had left their comeback too late to suffer the loss.

The Springboks picked up where they left off in the opening Rugby Championship round and will have plenty of questions to answer after two below average performances.

Tauriq Ebrahim rates the Springboks!

15 Johan Goosen
Looked good when he joined the line as he found some space and made some crucial tackles.
5/10

14 Ruan Combrinck
No real chances to run the ball but came good against his bigger counterpart on defence.
5/10

13 Lionel Mapoe
Another quiet game in attack as he saw very little ball while his defence work rate needs to be increased.
4/10

12 Damian de Allende
The 'head down and run straight' worked a bit but he remains a one-dimensional player.
3/10

11 Bryan Habana
It took him some time to get into the game and showed glimpses of his former self on attack.
4/10

10 Elton Jantjies
The time has come for him to be moved to the bench after another below average game.
3/10

9 Francois de Klerk
A bit of a mixed bag as some good moments were erased by some sloppy play and poor decision making.
4/10

8 Warren Whiteley
Another tireless performance on defence as he ensured a clean record.
6/10

7 Teboho Mohoje
Just when we thought he was back to his best, he took a few steps back.
3/10

6 Francois Louw
Despite a second half improvement, questions still remain about his inclusion in the team.
4/10

5 Lodewyk de Jager
Got stuck into his opposition as he looked to dominate them physically.
6/10

4 Eben Etzebeth
He set the tone defensively in the opening exchanges but offered little else in other departments.
4/10

3 Vincent Koch
While he was decent at scrum time, he leaked way too many penalties on defence - including coming off his line which led to Tuculet's try.
3/10

2 Adriaan Strauss (captain)
In no way is he a leader as he once again hid when the chips were down.
1/10

1 Tendai Mtawarira
Had he not been involved in the scrums, you would not have noticed him on the field.
2/10

Replacements:

16 Bongi Mbonambi
Not used.

17 Steven Kitshoff (on for Mtawarira, 46th min)
Made an immediate impact at scrum time and got stuck into some Argentinian players on defence.
6/10

18 Lourens Adriaanse (on for Kock, 46th min)
Helped to stabilise the scrums but offered little elsewhere.
4/10

19 Pieter-Steph du Toit (on for de Jager, 46th min)
Imposed himself physically when he got on and showed real strength to get over for a try.
6/10

20 Jaco Kriel (on for Louw, 55th min)
Another massive impact off the bench and surely has to start ahead of Louw.
7/10

21 Rudy Paige (on for de Klerk, 74th min)
Not enough to be rated...again

22 Morne Steyn (on for Jantjies, 4th min)
Brought a different dimension to the game but his decision making left much to be desired.
4/10

23 Jesse Kriel (on for Combrinck, 33rd min)
A mixed bag on defence but looked dangerous with ball-in-hand.
5/10



Which gives us an average rating of 3.5


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
28 Aug 2016, 04:05
#8
28 Aug 2016, 04:05#8
 Brycy, which one is Beeno?
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
28 Aug 2016, 04:20
#9
28 Aug 2016, 04:20#9
 Indeed Moz what happened to the team that produced that scintillating game against the ABs in 2013 ?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Aug 2016, 06:19
#10
28 Aug 2016, 06:19#10
Mozart

The following extract from Mozart is a classic:-

This was always on the cards when our 10 year dynasty ended. But those howling for its termination shouldn't complain....they got what they asked for. This is BiltongBek's, Dave's, and Mike's brave new world....a team chosen from lists. Enjoy!”

The team as well as the coaching is a joke and that is a fact – but to make the above statement is as ridiculous a statement I have ever seen on this site.   This new team is doing better than Mozart’s  old favourites did in 2014 and 2015.   The Irish in 2014 wiped the floor with the Springboks and so did  Argentina in the Durban test last year.   On top of that we had  the  Japanese disaster to consider as well.

So the team problem identification is weird – but the test yesterday confirmed what I identified as the poor links in the set-up and those weak links are mostly the players of the past – ie the older players in the team.   Those included –

     Morne Steyn, Francois Louw, Tendai Mtawarire and Adriaan Strauss.

Of the newer players the following were disasters as well:-

     Jantjies, Mapoe and Mohoje

Most of the other players can do better and I would have chosen a different team altogether.  

15 Jesse  Kriel, 14 Combrink, 13 De Allende, 12 Van Rensburg, 11 Habana, 10 Goosen, 9 De Klerk, 8 Whiteley, 7 Labuschagne, 6 Kriel, 5 Du Toit, 4 Etzebeth, 3 Koch, 2 Marx, 1 Kitshof

Coetzee and his coaching team is slightly poorer than was the one of the poor Meyer and his  goats.  Both tries to instil the same rubbish rugby – but with equally poor results.     

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Aug 2016, 06:19
#11
28 Aug 2016, 06:19#11
Duplication


BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Aug 2016, 07:06
#12
28 Aug 2016, 07:06#12
 OuMaaik, isn't it a waste of time picking a virtual all-white team ? As it is Coetzee's probably in the poo for not only failing to progress the transformation charter but effectively lowering the number of  previously disadvantaged oaks selected in his teams .
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
28 Aug 2016, 07:46
#13
28 Aug 2016, 07:46#13
The Whiteley bubble was always going to burst. I said as much after his first three tests. Mohoje, Lood, Strauss, Jantjies, De Allende, Mapoe, Goosen. All dead weight. That's half your team not contributing positively. How on earth do you presume to play test rugby?
We are trying to play test rugby without an effective loose trio, without a contributing hooker, an iffy front row, without a captain, without a flyhalf, without an effective midfield, without a fullback. 
And never mind the coaching, just as big a problem is that we don't have solutions in many of those positions. Where we do, we leave Rohan JvR, the only Lions player who made an impact under playoff pressure in SR at home and continue to pick the ever bumbling De Allende. Bok rugby is hardly worth commenting on anymore.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
28 Aug 2016, 08:58
#14
28 Aug 2016, 08:58#14
Bok ratings: Kitshoff upstages sickly starters 2016-08-28 07:16 share this Steven Kitshoff (Gallo) Related Links

Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer

Cape Town – Allister Coetzee needs to act swiftly and decisively to revive his now-tottering Springboks, victims of a first ever away defeat to Argentina in Salta on Saturday.

They were justly beaten 26-24 by a Pumas side unfortunate to have come off second-best in the opening Castle Rugby Championship clash last weekend, so this latest setback only amplified the sense of fragility around once-proud Bok rugby at present.

On a day when his starting line-up produced a first-half horror show, one ray of light was the zest he got in several cases off the bench, which he raided quite liberally early in the second period.

By the Sport24 performance sheet, flame-haired bench front-ranker Steven Kitshoff, now of Bordeaux, eclipsed all other Boks to top honours, even if he was only ousting a pretty humdrum bunch of colleagues …

Here’s how I rated the Boks out of 10 at Salta:

Johan Goosen: 5.5

Mixed bag last Saturday, mixed bag again. Handling let him down once or twice. Perhaps warrants further chances to settle at No 15; did punch one or two holes. Great heart, late on, to make vital track-back tackle soon after receiving painful blow.

Ruan Combrinck: 4

Looked badly impeded by a knock from early on; really ought to have come off well before 32nd minute.

Lionel Mapoe: 5

Sneaks a 50 percent tally primarily due to one determined, try-saving tackle over the line on Manuel Montero, the lanky Pumas left wing. Otherwise, simply couldn’t impose himself … again. Penalised once for not rolling away.

Damian de Allende: 4.5

Saved from lower rating by a few demonstrations of powerful leg strength -- one nearly led to own try, but he frustratingly lost control of ball inches from line. Creative game still way below last year’s levels, and had shoddy moments in the tackle.

Bryan Habana: 5.5

Among seniors who tried valiantly to light a fire in second half; some determined surges, and tidy finish for 45th-minute try. Alert on cover defence too.

Elton Jantjies: 4  

Still having terrible troubling merging his Lions instincts with Bok template (whatever it’s meant to be). Again too jittery, error-prone and imprecise, including costly, erratic place-kicking. Some early mettle on defence.

Faf de Klerk: 5

Albeit presumably to plan, frittered away some ball with often fruitless box-kicks. Far less of a menace to Pumas than last week, and still not an ideal “controller” at No 9. Made one really daft decision at advanced stage to take quick tap when situation cried out for simple shot at posts; luckily Boks retained their penalty.  

Warren Whiteley: 5.5

Got around the park, and did some useful cleaning-up when others around him were lax on defence. Involved in occasional ball-in-hand offensives. Still to produce a real Test-level cracker, though …

Oupa Mohoje: 5.5

Not as prominent as at Mbombela, but still one of the better Bok pack members. Got through tons of rugged tackling work, even if some were high and fortunate to escape censure. Lineout skills again evident.

Francois Louw: 4.5

Hard to see him surviving in XV to play Australia in fortnight. Another sub-standard outing as fetcher, including wretched first half when Bok breakdown work was broadly pitiful. In fairness, thunderous few minutes after break, including brilliant little back-flip to tee up Habana try … but then yanked off.

Lood de Jager: 5.5

Reasonable, though on Saturday’s showing (curtailed to 44 minutes before substitution), Pieter-Steph du Toit may well reclaim hotly-contested No 5 jersey.

Eben Etzebeth: 6

One regular who did put in an honest shift. Lineout banker, and made two critical defensive interventions, including pushing a flying Matias Orlando into touch when try otherwise beckoned. Striking stamina levels.

Vincent Koch: 4.5

Failed to build on last week’s promise. One or two sturdy enough scrums, but lacked the explosive power seen in Nelspruit, and shown up on defence.

Adriaan Strauss: 4

Captaincy under raging scrutiny now. It would so help his cause if own playing levels were suitably decent. Frankly, they just aren’t this year. Outdone by Agustin Creevy for pure mongrel, and poor at breakdowns where he should be a key helper to the cause.

Tendai Mtawarira: 4

Sorry, but the likeable “Beast” – even on the occasion of equalling Os du Randt for most prop caps – gave another comfort-zone performance, something that has become too habitual. Anonymous outside set-piece. Shakeup needed at No 1 … now see below.

Standout substitute:

Steven Kitshoff: 7   

Du Toit and Jaco Kriel also provided tangible, fresh gusto in the second half, but barrelling loosehead prop Kitshoff made enough impact both at scrum-time and in general play over some 36 minutes to bag top marks overall on a bleak day for the Boks. Did miss one tackle badly.

Sport24 on Twitter
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 Aug 2016, 09:22
#15
28 Aug 2016, 09:22#15
 Mozart's got his head up his bum again.
Very poor analysis by the foolish man ... filled with prejudice, bias and the absurd promotion of the tired and old. 
As expected ... Morne was useless and should never have been called up for national duty. A clear sign of desperation from Coetzee.
Beast was shown up as a weed when Kitshoff came on. Like night and day. Why isn't Kitshoff starting?
Mohojo was all over the place and I was rather impressed with his work rate. Needs to bring his tackles down a tad. He's physical and has a lot of pace. I think I've changed my mind about him.  
PSDT showed the useless Lood how to play at 5. Why isn't he starting?
Flo was as ineffective as always. I know Mozart will hale him as a god now that he did that little behind the back flip ... but that was the sum of his outing. Simply taking up a space in the team that belongs to another.
Jantjies was friggin AWFULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. Why is he still in the team? 
USELESS, USELESS, USELESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!
Whiteley is not test material. De Allende is not test material. Mapoe should be replaced with Venter ... or by my favourite ... Vorster. Why isn't Janse van Rensburg a Bok yet?
Strauss as a hooker and captain is way off the pace. Why is he still there? Where the hell is Marx and Marutllule?
Habana .... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaaaa!!! Fat and lazy. 
Goosen ... told you so!!!!
A shameful performance by a shameful team and their shameful quota coaches.
Long may it continue while race is a factor. 





 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
28 Aug 2016, 09:30
#16
28 Aug 2016, 09:30#16
 Crikey that red hair alone should scare up 7 points !
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Aug 2016, 15:24
#17
28 Aug 2016, 15:24#17
Pakie spot on.....I agree with every word.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
28 Aug 2016, 15:47
#18
28 Aug 2016, 15:47#18
 Mozart and Pakie is a pair of idiots supreme.  When Meyer was buggering up and his dolts played disaster after disaster over the 2014 and 2015 test series they never blamed any players b ar a few of the newbies - not a word about the rugby geriatrics.   Who are they to come out with criticism now?   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Aug 2016, 16:10
#19
28 Aug 2016, 16:10#19
 I told you OOm that things would go pear shaped this year.....you assured me vehemently that wasn't true. Nice going domkop.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
28 Aug 2016, 16:44
#20
28 Aug 2016, 16:44#20
 "Idiot Supremes " ? , are they black ladies who sing outta tune Mikey ?That Biltongbek bloke reckons all you need to do to fix SA rugby is just play Currie cup and a couple of tests a year .Am I right in thinking that didnt help SA rugby back in the bad old days either ?
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
28 Aug 2016, 18:51
#21
28 Aug 2016, 18:51#21
Back in the bad old days, the only thing that kept South African rugby going was the Currie Cup. 
The world's oldest domestic rugby competition with a rich history and tradition. I wish it was still treated with the respect it deserves.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 Aug 2016, 19:38
#22
28 Aug 2016, 19:38#22
 Um ... Mozart ... it's all very nice that you agree with Pakie's post ... I think we all do ... but the one thing he didn't speak of is bringing back the tired and the elderly. 
Some how I doubt he was pointing to their return. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Aug 2016, 20:05
#23
28 Aug 2016, 20:05#23
 Nor did I if you can follow the bouncing ball CC, I'm simply bemoaning all the pressure to drop them last year, which made for stupid choices like Kriel at centre. It's a new day....worst luck.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
28 Aug 2016, 20:33
#24
28 Aug 2016, 20:33#24
 Wasn't it your favourite coach who brought Kriel in at center? 
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he also try his luck with Gurthro, Fourie, Bakkies and Victor?
All failures. 
And yes you are trying to convince us that retaining the elderly is the way forward ... unless you've had a sudden change of heart.


 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
28 Aug 2016, 21:03
#25
28 Aug 2016, 21:03#25
But not Maakniks or Mostert and Mapoe?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Aug 2016, 04:44
#26
29 Aug 2016, 04:44#26
Mozart =   When things went pear-shaped in 2014 and 2015 you were told that there is a major problem and you denied it.   Lets not forget the last RC test against Argentina in 2015 in Durban and the 2014 test against Ireland when both countries wiped the floor with Meyer's team.   Then  according to you nothing was amiss and Meyer and his team were  acceptable.    We have another dud coach and a set of poor players in the team - none poorer than some of the Meyer hangovers like Strauss, Beast and Louw.   So things are wrong - but there is at least some signs of improvement when there was none under Meyer.      
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Aug 2016, 04:44
#27
29 Aug 2016, 04:44#27
Duplication      
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Aug 2016, 04:44
#28
29 Aug 2016, 04:44#28
Duplication

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Aug 2016, 05:05
#29
29 Aug 2016, 05:05#29
Oh please. We beat the ABs and Wallabies in 2014.....fat chance this new team will pull that off. If you see signs of improvement please enlighten us, to most I'm guessing we look just as bad as in the first Irish test.

You asked for it....enjoy.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Aug 2016, 05:31
#30
29 Aug 2016, 05:31#30
 And we lost against virtually everyone else and that included Japan in 2015.  There  was no real team building under Meyer (only a recycling of tired has-beens) and now we have a replacement dud - what do you expect under the circumstances.  When thinking members on this site pointed out to you that Coetzee is the worst potential choice as coach you defended him = what now? 
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Aug 2016, 05:45
#31
29 Aug 2016, 05:45#31
Nope I said Coetzee was the best of the politically possible choices, but that it was a shame we couldn't get a world class coach....I see your absence hasn't improved your truthfulness.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Aug 2016, 12:14
#32
29 Aug 2016, 12:14#32
 Nope - the truth is ou did not add what you wrote now - nice escape mechanism used now does not take away your support of Coetzee at the time.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Aug 2016, 12:55
#33
29 Aug 2016, 12:55#33
 Stop arguing about selections and take note of Beeno's defining savvy selection post.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Aug 2016, 22:45
#34
29 Aug 2016, 22:45#34
 Eat your crow Tokkie
RE: It's blindingly obvious....we will never make it with Coetzee
June 30, 2016, 16:31:48

Considering the political alternatives Coetzee had the best credentials of those with a chance. This posting isn't so much a consideration of what is possible....but what should be possible.  


We should be able to field a coach who is able to take on Eddie Jones tactically....our rugby deserves this.
So far Coetzee has fielded poorly prepared, demotivated teams....he has been considerably worse than I thought. But very politically correct. He is the Bok rugby equivalent of Roy Hodgson and his results will be no better. 


Edit post
    3K
    3ku1Pro2,580 posts
    30 Aug 2016, 05:48
    #35
    30 Aug 2016, 05:48#35
     So basically your bench should be starting. 
    Kitsoff should be starting, and kriel is your best blindside. 
    MO
    MozartCaptain49,914 posts
    30 Aug 2016, 06:12
    #36
    30 Aug 2016, 06:12#36
    Kriel is not a blindside, the debate is whether he is the best open side. As for Kitshoff he is a force, but our scrums did no better when he was on......deck chairs. What's wrong is the team.....its leaders, it's confused tactics, it's fighting spirit and its ability to function as a unit.
    Under Rudolph Straueli we elevated the individual over the team and crashed. White set that right, but no solution is ever permanent....by 2013 HM was choosing flavour of the day Boks, which lasted right through the WC and into Coetzee's tenure.

    We need a team, a strategy, leaders and smarts.
    CL
    CleanCutPro9,905 posts
    30 Aug 2016, 09:03
    #37
    30 Aug 2016, 09:03#37
     Yes you're right, Mozart ... it's Louw that's the blindsider ... and not a very good one at that.
    We have better on both sides of the scrum and that leaves us all puzzled as to why he's even there. 
    Then again ... Coetzee started his term off with one mistake after another. At prop, hooker, lock, blind side flank, fly half, inside center, full back and an assortment of blunders on the bench ... and seems determined to carry on doing much of the same ... so why not select one as feeble as Louw to match the rest of the sub standard players in the team.
    It gives the side balance.





    GE
    generaltitPro3,164 posts
    30 Aug 2016, 09:13
    #38
    30 Aug 2016, 09:13#38
    Hasn't it a familiar ring...seemed to heard this all before...now't will change until Johan Ackerman is finally given the reigns....

    Hey Mozart haven't heard this classic and awesome masterpiece before...

    https://youtu.be/k-NwzozflCQ


    MO
    MozartCaptain49,914 posts
    30 Aug 2016, 15:53
    #39
    30 Aug 2016, 15:53#39
     Perhaps Ackerman would do better.....but he was whopped twice by the Canes, and flopped with the A team against England. The Lions success is a confluence of factors, of which Ackerman was only one.
    3K
    3ku1Pro2,580 posts
    31 Aug 2016, 11:47
    #40
    31 Aug 2016, 11:47#40
     Blindside is 6 over here. IS Blindside 7 over their. I mean Kriel should be starting at 6. I agree I think the Boks are trying to play like the Lions. They should be using their big men, too lateral. Go forward is their strength. They lack leadership too. I still expect the Boks to be the Abs toughest test, when we play you guys over their, per yearly. 
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