Disecting the AB training squad

  Looking at the wider AB training squad i was wondering how Hansen was going to make up his mind with so much talent available to choose from.

Given Hansens Canterbury roots my guess the region will be heavily represented which makes Andy Ellis's ommision surprising not to mention fellow Crusader Ryan Crotty 's.

 No more surprising though than Cantab Matt Todd especially with Richie Mccaw on holiday and Sam Cane needing covering and Ardie Savea not even considered .  Tanerau Latimer should be considered IMHO as he is one of the best flankers in the country according to Dave Rennie - Sam Cane being the other one . Obvious correlation there of course between the Chiefs awesome flankers and their table top position..

One of the great advantages the ABs have though is versatility in the backs.

Carter plays first or second five eighth..

Barret  -Flyhalf or Fullback

Rene Ranger – covers the backline and a dangerous and explosive player, great utility player off the bench and kicking reserve

Tim Nanai Williams Fullback, Wing and Centre

Ben Smith Wing, Fullback, Midfield

Savea can play either wing

...Kiwis feel free to add the players i've inadvertently missed to my draft list...

1 Loosehead prop Tony Woodcock/ Owen Franks / Wyatt Crocket

2. Hooker Dane Coles / Andrew Hore / Ben Afeaki

3. Tighthead prop Ben Franks / Owen Franks/ Jeff Toomaga Allen

4. Lock Brody Retallic /Luke Romano /Dominic Bird

5. Lock Jeremy Thrush ./ Craig Clarke

6. Blindside flanker Steven Luatua / Victor Vito / Brad Shields

7. Open side flank Sam Cane /Ardie Savea. /Matt Todd

8. Kieran Read. /Victor Vito / Liam Messam

9.  Halfback TJ Perenara./  Aaron Smith / Tawera Kerr Barlow

10. Standoff Aaron Cruden /Dan Carter / Beauden Barret

11. Left Wing Julian Savea./ Tim Nanai Williams / Charles Piutau

12. 2nd 5/8 Dan Carter / Tom Taylor / Francis Saili, Nonu

13. Centre Conrad Smith /  Renee Ranger

14. Right Wing Ben Smith / Julian Savea / Hosea Gear

15. Full back Israel Dagg / Charles Piutau / Beauden Barret

..My bad i may have embellised the squad with a few extra Chiefs that weren't chosen but will join the extended squad soon. You might spot them but i could easily add Chiefs  Robbie Robinson, Tanerau Latimer and Ben Tameifuna. Ok my world beating Presidents XV team of non selected fringe palyers coming up...

1 Loosehead prop Tony Woodcock/ Owen Franks / Wyatt Crocket

2. Hooker Dane Coles / Andrew Hore / Ben Afeaki

3. Tighthead prop Ben Franks / Owen Franks/ Jeff Toomaga Allen

4. Lock Brody Retallic /Luke Romano /Dominic Bird

5. Lock Jeremy Thrush ./ Craig Clarke

6. Blindside flanker Steven Luatua / Victor Vito / Brad Shields

7. Open side flank Sam Cane /Ardie Savea. /Matt Todd

8. Kieran Read. /Victor Vito / Liam Messam

9.  Halfback TJ Perenara./  Aaron Smith / Tawera Kerr Barlow

10. Standoff Aaron Cruden /Dan Carter / Beauden Barret

11. Left Wing Julian Savea./ Tim Nanai Williams / Charles Piutau

12. 2nd 5/8 Dan Carter / Tom Taylor / Francis Saili

13. Centre Conrad Smith /  Renee Ranger

14. Right Wing Ben Smith / Julian Savea / Hosea Gear

15. Full back Israel Dagg / Charles Piutau / Beauden Barret

sir brycy I have highlighted some players who are looking long in the tooth?

The strength in the team lies in the backs but please note Lord Beeno's insightful observation as to how backlines are being shut down. Look how even a second team Stormers shut team shut down the Reds backs and won the match.

sir brycy the kiwi refs have a big job on their hands come test time but dont dispair judging by their super 15 performances they could well be up to the task.

Bean Brain Conrad Smith is the best centre in the world and DC is world class even if Aaron Cruden is out classing him like a good Chief. Thats why i put DC at inside centre and Aaron Cruden #1 AB fly half

You re right in that Hore, Woodcock and Gear particularly are playing for their lives against the frogs but they're not the only ones and early days yet before they finalise any AB team  - competition for positions is healthy though encouraging inspired performances or else yr AB history...

Brycy

Unfortunately the form of a number of players mentioned by you is poor and problematic.   You cannot play players on reputation and some of them are ridiculously poor.  

If I have to select a team from your list on current form in the Super 15 - it would be the following:-

15  Charles Piutau

14  Ben Smith  (the form of Gear and Savea is ridiculously poor)

13  Rene Ranger

11  Toss a coin up in the air and whatsoever comes down - pick him

10  Aaron Cruden

  9   TJ Perenera

  8   Kieran Read

  7   Sam Cane

  6   Steven Luatua

  5   Luke Romano/Craig Clarke

  4   Same Whitelock (Retallick is ridiculously poor in line-outs and Thrust a joke)

  3   Ben Afeaki - the rest are useless

  2  Toss a coin up in the air and whatsoever comes down - pick him  

  1   Wyat Crocket (poor form - but the rest are even worse)

The All Blacks will have serious problems at 11, 2 and amongst the props.   There really is no depth there if the present Super 15 form is anything to go by. - the All Blacks have some problems.   You can pick some players on reputation - but that is also dangerous - since reputation can be affected by the age-factor as well.

This is likely to be the weakest team the All Blacks have had for years - but I do think they would have no problems with the French - should beat them with ease.

the All Black squad/wider training camp which are gathering on the 28th is as follows,,,

Blues
Frank Halai, Steven Luatua, Keven Mealamu, Charles Piutau, Rene Ranger, Francis Saili and Piri Weepu.

Chiefs
Ben Afeaki, Sam Cane, Aaron Cruden, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Liam Messam and Brodie Retallick.

Hurricanes
Beauden Barrett, Dane Coles, Ben Franks, TJ Perenara, Julian Savea, Brad Shields, Conrad Smith, Jeremy Thrush, and Victor Vito.

Crusaders
Dominic Bird, Daniel Carter, Wyatt Crockett, Israel Dagg, Owen Franks, Kieran Read, Luke Romano, Tom Taylor and Samuel Whitelock.

Highlanders
Hosea Gear, Andrew Hore, Ma'a Nonu, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith and Tony Woodcock.

the main thing seen time and time again with selections is that for some players, form is not a preresquite, so im always baffaled to see teams picked solely on form.
when was the last time we havent seen the All blacks dominate the rugby world??? some rough patches here and there, but all and all a record that is the envy of everyone and when u look at those All Blacs teams, vchange within happened, but not at a wholesale rate and this current crop will be no different.

thats not to say i like some of the selections, IMO kev, woody, snake & hore need to be shown the door by the end of the year. kev and hore still have value in that the next batch of hookers need that experince to help guide them through, but at the end of the day nothing gets u ready like gametime.
on that note i cant wait for ged robinson to return to NZ next year, hes going to add some real depth to our hookers.

for now i dont mind nonu, he has been well below par, but as a hurricanes supporter, i dont think ive ever seen nonu have a good super rugby season, just moments and flashes of brilliance every now and then.
but once he puts on the All Blacks jersey, he has proven to be one of our most consistent players and his partnership with snake is the most succesful midfield pairing in rugby history.
i cant see him lasting till the RWC, but i dont like our options at 12 the moment, francis saili is too hot and cold, very blues like. tom taylor was great at 12, but i dont like small 12s, i prefer somebody whose more physically up to the challenge of crashballing at will, but still have the necessaryy skills to create & distribute.
after alls been said and done, nonu is still the best option.

carter, i wouldnt move him from the No10 period, cruden got one over hin in the weekend, but every game carter has played in 2013 has been very carteresque and while crudens been good, i havent sen anything which warrants hi getting the No10.
cruden on the bench is where he is best suited at the moment, but i am expecting pecking order to change come 2015, just dont know if carter will be physically up to the challenge.

bird will get a good chance to press his claims for the june test series now that whitelock has been ruled out and i cant wait to see him start more often in the crusaders camp.

all in all i love our All Black squad, we continue to bleed new talent and in  particular dominic bird, ben afeaki and steven luatua, but it is also about giving those newbies from last year a chance to further cement their place and get valuable experince.
as long as we dont do what the Boks and wallabies did, were looking at another good chance to be even better then last year, even against a stiffer opposition in the wild card thron frnechies and the dangerous looking wallabies, everything else the All Blacks should easily dispose of, even england who im looking forward to the most.

my All Blacks vs les bleu,,,
1 t woodcock, 2 d coles, 3 o franks, 4 l romano, 5 b retallick, 6 s luatua, 7 s cane, 8 k read, 9 p weepu, 10 d carter, 11 ranger, 12 m nonu, 13 c smith, 14 b smith, 15 i dagg
16 a hore, 17 w crockett, 18 b afeaki, 19 d bird, 20 v vito, 21 a smith, 22 a cruden, 23 t taylor

Sasue

Sorry if I upset you - but I looked specifically at Super 15 form when making my picks.   However , there are remarkable similarities between som of the picks.

There are some differences though and I have serious reervations about them.  Dagg's form was really a joke this year - I expected much more from him.  I like Piutau and Ben Smith though.  I pick Piatau ahead of Dagg and hope to see Ben Smith on the wing.

I am sad to say - but I think both Smith and Nonu are past it.   Smith in the past was excellent on attack and somewhat questionable on defence.   The attacking ability has deteriorated badly and so has his defence.   Nonu destroyed the potentially good Highlanders backline - by crashballing with every ball that came his way - he has never this season made one clean break and was to my mind nothing better than Francois Steyn - and you know what I think about that one.   He also did not create space on the outside of him - or for that matter for any other player.   Past tense is written all over him.

I would rather see Carter at 12 than Nonu. 

Weepu started off brilliantly this year and in recent games was a joke.  I prefer Aaron Smith - who was poor all season to him - but think Perenera as signs of the X-Factor coming through.

Retallick maybe - but only if he can improve his line-out jumping - players take the throw-in-balls of him to easily.  His other problem is that he plays dangerously near to the penalty level and card level.   Not clever.  I would defnitely prefer Bird to him.  Extra coaching as to how to catch balls in line-outs might come in handy though.

Owen Franks is a penalty machine and Woodcock to my mind is on the verge of retirement - should actually ave gone already.   As to Cole - yes he could do - but Hore brings nothing to the game anymore.

Mind you - I do realise that in a better environment with stronger and better players around them there could be vast improvement in performances - but some players were so poor in Super 15 that one really wonder whether the changed environment would help.  

Maybe my fantasy league participation and disappointment in some players are influencing me - but I get the horrors when I look at what some of them has done to my fantasy team selections. LOL

@mikey,
lolz, all good rbo, i wasnt upset, i just strongly disagee with any comments that use form as the be all end all. its improtant, but no the only preresquite to what makes a balanced team.

i dont agree with some of ur comments regarding weepu though, IMO hes been in great form all year, easily the best halfback of the comp with his ability to control the ball at the back of the breakdown no matter the pressure.
he hasnt had perfect games every game, but hes been a huge part of the blues revival this season and i would make him the All Blacks incumbent halfback without skipping a beat.
aaron smiths been good the last few games, but his season started of shocking, i would rate barlow over smith too, but the time already invested in smith gives him a leg up on barlow.
i wouldnt mind seein barlow get more games against the likes of argentina and maybe on the bench against france in the 3rd test proviede we won the first two of course.
i dont like tj perenara for the All blacks, hes just not smart enough and makes some serious rookie errors which can be frustrating like a mofo.

right now owen franks experience in the All blacks and his recent form has him the incumbent tighthead easy. the way the crusaders scrum has been operating the last month has been undreal, easily the mos dominant scrum at the moment, the made the brumbies look like children and their pack is world class.

im very happy with retalicks form this year, the only tight 5 loosefrward in the top 20 tacklers list, the rest are all looseforwards, and hes the only one who can match them from the lock, very similar to last year too.
his work around the field never goes unnoticed by me either, loves the tight stuff and im more surprised to see a ruck or maul that hes not involved in then one that he is.
saffas dont rate him very highly, but luckily the critics in NZ both armcahir and professional are all on the smae page with lurch.

its always hard to pick a team, i dont think a form team against the french are the way to go, it needs to be a more balanced out fit, if the All blacks had fixtures similar to the Boks, then i would have no problems playing a form only team, but against the french who have been our thorn in the All blacks backside, the wallabies, Boks and england, we need a more balanced team.
piutaus been in great form, but hes doing in one season what dagg did in three seasons staright, and dagg was more consistent at it, add to that test level is a whole differnt kettle of fish from spXV level and dagg whose a proven test player, trumps piutau easy.
IMO piutaus time will come, but no need to thrwo him in the deepend, thats how All blacks lose matches.

another way to look at it is this,,,

form team
1 wyat crocektt, 2 c flynn, 3 o franks, 4 l romano, 5 b retallick, 6 s luatua, 7 l braid, 8 v vito, 9 p weepu, 10 d carter, 11 b smith, 12 r crotty, 13 r rnager, 14 f halai, 15 c piutau
16 g parson, 17 b franks, 18 b afeaki, 19 c retlalick, 20 m todd, 21 a smith, 22 a cruden, 23 t marshall

thats still a very good team, but it dosent fill me with the level of confidence against teams like france, Boks, wallabies and england. the team i mentioned in the above post, is one i wouldnt think twice about getting the job done against anyone, even the wallabies who IMO are the biggest threat to the All Blacks this year.

Sasue the latest team you posted look much better to me and if I was an All Black supporter I would be happier with that one than I was with your previous one.

The Crusaders the strongest scrummagers in the world - not so sure about that one though.  LOL.   O yes - I constantly get mixed up with the Frank brothers - the real disaster is Ben Franks of the Hurricanes - the other one is OK. 

Sasu.. the first team you posted looks predictably like Hansens squad except can't see newbie Luatua and Ranger in the starting line up and i'm guessin Vito and  Savea to start in those positions and the forementioned maybe coming off the bench as impact players ...

Brycy

Savea ahead of Ranger - you must be kidding.  I rate Ranger and think Savea tries to use his bulk with no sense of the game,  This year under high balls he was critically poor.   Another one that should be out of contention for any team of substance.  

i cant see luatua or ranger cracking the starting lineup either, but they both should.

ranger IMO has done enough to usurp the 13 from snake, im a big fan of snake, but looking into the future, ranger has got the 13 all but wrapped up and now needs to be about phasing ranger in and phasing snake not necessarily out, but 2nd on the 13 pecking order.

messams been strong the last month, but his whole season has been very ordinary and hes been missing in large patches, the story of most his career.
so really i got no problems with vito, but luatua has been one of NZs best period.

not so clever mike we can only but speculate what Hansen will do but we can only imagine if they have been chosen for the squad they are serious contenders.

I would'nt even go past putting Piutau on one wing , the more players equally capable of playing fullback the stronger our backline defence perhaps  - then Ben Smith another fullback on the other wing and Dagg at the back..

Solid as in theory...and great runners with the ball to boot....

Great to see you finally rating Aaron Cruden though so i may not be able to call you not so clever mike for much longer by the looks.

...and BTW Craig Clark is'nt even part of the squad but you selecting him tells me i may make a Mighty Chiefs supporter out of you yet......

Brycy that old boys side will get pumped. Second side approved of by Mike is better.

Too many chiefies in the squad of course. Always remember brycy the wee chiefies got pumped by depleted Stormers side - has to mean something.

Sasu...With fourteen Saders picked already in the wider AB training squad as opposed to six from the Chiefs (and nine from the Canes and Blues squad.)

Hansen must have been agonising on who to leave out so his Canterbury bias was'nt so obvious ...

and Cory Flynn became one of those casualties along with Ryan Crotty, Andy Ellis and Matt Todd..

It would be easy to form a AB 2nd XV that would be world beaters incorporating the players that just missed out of AB selectiom -  theres a dollar in that too i'm sure and might stop so much AB talent going elsewhere

Sasue

I have a really good reason for inclusion of Luatua in the team - and that is his contribution in line-outs - in a way similar to Labuschagne in the Cheetahs team.   The line-outs for the Blues was a disaster for the Blues this past round  and like the Reds said last week - the fact that Labuschagne did not play int the Hurricanes game - made a major contribution to the loss of the team.   Same can be said about the Blues latest loss.

As it is the All Blacks is not all that strong in line-outs - and Retallick is in fact disappointing.   Whitelock is their best line-out player and with him missing they are going to lose balls they should win.   If Luatua is there - it would cancel out some of the negatives in line-out play.

@brycy,
in 2012 there were two picks in particular which iused as argemuents about hansens one eyed cantab flaw, sam cane over matt todd and piri weepu over ellis.
matt todd had been the standout 7 for NZ the last two years, yet cane who couldnt even crack the team god the nod ahead of him and then their was ellsi who was the form halfback of the comp getting overlooked for weepu whose 2012 crapness came in size XXXL.

the likes of romano, whitelock, read, dagg, franks, dagg, carter are not biased selections IMO, they are more then warranted. but selections like bird (who i rate big time) crockett and taylor have a lot of logic to them.

@mikey,
thats one of the many reasons i want him in the starting XV too, it would give yhe All Blacks 4 solid targets in the lineouts with the two locks and read as well.

in that hurricanes game, it wasnt labuschange not playing that caused the cheetahs the most problems against the hurricanes, it was dumb rugby from their part, running the ball in their 22 only to turn it over, or shuffling the ball from side to side only to knock it on, when there was ample opportunity to clear the ball. turning down shots at goal also proved costly.

this is a common phenomenon in teams that a very attacking orientated, its like they almost get into a tunnel vision of sorts they cant break, ive seen it time and time again in the NZ teams, and the only ones who have shown mental strength to break that pattern have been the crusaders and chiefs, the others have struggled to break that cylce when trapped in it.

Sasu am not particularly worried if the ABs are loaded with Cantabs as the Chiefs can rest their players-was just pointing out Hansen could have potentially chosen 18 of them -   hopefully the Boks are loaded with Bulls too and the Samoans can soften them up for us too before the finals...

The Chiefs are looking good though and with Maa Nonu losing favour do you think Bundee Aki could possibly be the future answer to our AB inside centre woes or do you think he's too small.?

Now, stepping into the No 12 jersey vacated by Sonny Bill Williams, he's building a future in the game that will surely eventually include international rugby.

Aki, at 92kg, isn't big for a second-five (he was a halfback at Manurewa High School), but the 23-year-old produced two match-changing moments on Friday night against the resurgent Crusaders.

One was when he furiously wrestled with Kieran Read after Read had crossed the Chiefs line. Somehow, Aki managed to stop him grounding the ball. The other came when, after Aki had been judged to have obstructed a Crusaders defender and a try to Charlie Ngatai was disallowed, he ran a hard, perfect line, to score near the posts and seal the game for the Chiefs.

@brycy,

im not completely sold that nonu has lost favour with the All Blacks, when hansen called a meeting for the leadership only group, nonu was one of the guys called, the strongest indication of where hansens midfiled mindset is at. nonu was just as bad last year as he is at the moment, & once SBW left the scene, it was the nonu show once more.

i like aki, but i do think hes to small, so if they roll that the dice and choose somebody of that physique, im thinking carter, taylor and even crotty would be picked ahead of bundee.
bundee on the wing would be a decent option, but our depth in the outside backs means that prob wont happen.

francis saili is anohter option, but hes way too green and still finding his feet in super rugby, i think maybe both aki and saili need another season of spXV under their belt, right now i would be surprised if both make the EOYT.
but if akis progress should continue the way it has, then who knows, though by that time i think SBW will be back and mark my words SBW will be back for the RWC, given his addiction to the spotlight.

one option i do like for 12 is rene the power ranger, hes not as big as SBW or nonu, but he is bigger then carter, aki and taylor, but as we have seen time and time again, rangers more then capable of meeting the physical requirements on defence and to crash it forward, but the added bonus of the other weapons in his arsenal.

Sasu good answer. Like you say a lot of players that with another season under their belt may qualify for the wider squad next year and if you were going to put a team together now of those players what do you think it might look like?

Who do you reckon just missed out of the wider training squad or are future ABs in the making / on the fringes / wildcards..?

Will Zac be coming back?..

 ..here i bracketed Andre Taylor and James Marshall hoping you could tell me whats happening with the Hurricanes?...is their season over yet?

.. for stars like Taylor to get dropped and dunno much about James Marshall except that you can't have too many Hurricane fullbacks in the backline as they're safe as houses..it's like a tradition dating back to Christian Cullen.... the legend..

It's reassuring to know that we have so much talent to choose from and we can easily name another quality team or two on top of the two or three we've already named..A positive sign for NZ rugby.

Brycy's NZ Presidents XV 2013

1 Toby Smith

2 Corey Flynn

3 Ben Tameifuna

4 Culum Retallick

5 Craig Clarke

6 Luke Braid

7 Tanerau Latimer

8  Matt Todd

9 Andy Ellis

10 Chris Noakes / Gareth Anscombe / Baden Kerr

11 Tim Nanai Williams

12 Bundee Aki

13 Ryan Crotty

14 Leila Masaga

15  Tom Marshall

16  Ardie Savea

17 Blade Thomson

18 Hika Elliot

19 James Parsons

20 Robbie Robinson

21 Tamati Ellison

22 Andre Taylor / James Marshall