Dylan Hartley eleven week ban for referee abuse

Eleven week ban for referee abuse

Dylan Hartley of Northampton Saints has been suspended for 11 weeks following an RFU Disciplinary hearing.

The hooker was sent off for abusing a match official, contrary to Law 10(4)(s) and (m) in yesterday’s Aviva Premiership final against Leicester Tigers at Twickenham Stadium.

At the hearing he pleaded not guilty but the panel found him guilty and determined that this was mid-range on the scale of seriousness. The entry point for mid-range is a suspension of twelve weeks and that was reduced by one week to reflect his good conduct at the hearing.

He is suspended fromMay 26 until July 6 and from August 17 to August 31 and free to play again on September 1.

In accordance with the Lions tour agreement, the six-week tour of Australia represents eight of the eleven weeks suspension because of the tour schedule. The remaining three weeks of the suspension cover three of Northampton Saints’ pre-season matches.

The case was heard at Epsom Downs Holiday Inn by a panel of His Honour Judge Jeff Blackett, Jeremy Summers and Peter Budge.

Judge Blackett said: “We cannot get around the fact that Wayne Barnes was certain that Mr. Hartley’s comments were directed at him. Wayne Barnes said that if he had had any doubt in his mind, then he would have given the player the benefit of the doubt.

"In terms of sanction, calling a referee a cheat is an attack on his integrity and contrary to the core values of rugby and therefore we have taken a serious view and provided a serious sanction.”

I understand protecting refs, but 11 weeks for calling a guy a cheat is pretty harsh.... He could have bit someone and probably got less.

the news is old, but im surprised at the zero comments on the matter or any related threads.

cant hel but think what a dumb prick and it serves him right, lolz. i know barnes has left a very foul taste in the mouths of many kiwis, but we need only look at our winning percentage to know the real deal and the last thing we want is to sound like some of saffa cuzzies here who bitch and moan something wicked about the so called injustice of the referees.

be that as it may, rory best has now been called into the lions squad and IMO hes should have been there from the start, i actually had him in my original squad, along with hartley too though, lolz.

this whole incident though is where the lions strength really comes through. despite losing a frontline hooker in hartley, they still get another front line hooker to repalce him in rory best, its not just a starting 15 who are all frontline players, its the entire freaking squad.

but whatevers, if i was hartley, i would have just told barnes to go F*** himself, i mean he was going to get banned anyways, LMAO, :oP

i loved that look of shock on hartleys face when he was red carded, LMAO, not really the sharpest tool in the shed is ol hartley, like a certain saffa lady we all know but only saffas love, LMAO, :oP

Sasue

You are right - Harley is a dumb prick and that blank look on his face means an open space whee there is supposed to be a brain.   One cono;ation though - in the absence of a brain he cannot ever get concussion. LOL

I am not a regular referee basher like some others on the site are.  I think referees are human and they do make mistakes.  However - some refs are rank incompetents - but they are wheeded out sooner rather than later.   And then there is one who became ref of the year in New Zealand.     Beeno will have another hissy-fit about that one LOL,

Next thing - excuse my French - but I am clueless - who is that mysterious SAFFA lady you are referring to.   Hope its not politics.  If it is - is it perhaps Winnue Madikezela Mandela - the one who snuffed out Stompie and a few others with the Mandela United Football team?   They are still discovering graves all over the show resulting from the gentle measures taken to help some of their patients to go to the Underworld.   That one is not popular at all.   LOL    

Sas, there are no comments because nothing surprises us with you kiwis anymore. Just another dumb prick off the kiwi production line and the line shows no sign of breaking down.

At the top of the line, we have kiwi blooded cheat refs. Firstly Paul Honiss. John, go talk to your boys. Ronan, tap the ball and go score unopposed. Then we have Steve "I may have missed A FEW calls" Walsh who ruined the 2007 and inaugaral super 14 final. We all know what Bryce Lawrence is and of course Glen Jackson is doing his best to go a whole career without having an SA team win under him.

Then we have your players. Just scum!! Nothing surprises.

If Barnes was more secure in his own skin, this need not have happened. These stiff disciplinarian types evoke aberrant responses. So in the heat of battle Hartley made a silly mistake and lashed out. As a result of that "massive" infraction, his whole rugby career is diminished. Seems a bit over the top, but once it gets to a hearing the officials have to enforce the rules. Refs can often diffuse this stuff if they have basic people skills....unfortunately many,  like Barnes, don't.

@boklogic,

"Sas, there are no comments because nothing surprises us with you kiwis anymore. Just another dumb prick off the kiwi production line and the line shows no sign of breaking down."

LMAO, wayne barnes isnt a kiwi u plonker, bawahahahaha, :oD

as for the rest of that grumpy rant of urs, i will leave u with this lesson in life,,,
A wise man sat in the audience & cracked a joke. Everyone laughed like crazy. After another moment, he cracked the same joke again. This time less people laughed. He cracked the same joke again & again. When there was no laughter in the crowd, he smiled & said, "you can't laugh at the same joke again & again, but why do you keep crying over the same thing over & over again?"

:o)

Please show me where I ever refer to Wayne Barnes being a Kiwi? I know exactly who Wayne Barnes is. He is the man you pin your world cup loss on. It was nearly going to be Craig Joubert in 2011 but have you guys ever considered than when there is something to play for a stakes are high, France are just better than you??

I was referring to you mentioning that there was no comments regarding this post and thats because and arrogant, outspoken, dumb kiwi does not surprise us anymore. Its to be expected ;-) I just then decided to give you a run down on a few examples of some kiwi cheating and stupidity. Your player list is endless. I refer to Dylan Hartley as being the dumb prick not the ref. The ref didnt abuse him.

You see Sas. I like you. I think you are a great poster but you need to read properly and comprehend before posting some dribble on jokes and laughing because the laughter is directed at you now.

"thats because an arrogant, outspoken, dumb kiwi does not surprise us anymore. Its to be expected ;-) "

In one... Boklogic... thanks for your concise summation.

Furthermore... the tides will turn on the ABs / kiwis with the refs and the ranting will begins - its absolutely certain to happen...why?

becasue 1 very simple fact they cant win a RWC away from home without the help of Bryce...

@boklogic,

ah i see, so u were talking about hartley,  it came across as if u were having a go at barnes given the context of ur post.

but in regards to some of ur comments,,,

"I know exactly who Wayne Barnes is. He is the man you pin your world cup loss on."
yup, i do hold him responsible, and ever since those reports came out about barnes bragging in the bar about the All Blacks 2007 demise, i have been very filthty with him, but guess what, i got over it and ive been telling many a kiwis to do the same, a lesson thats very hard to teach to saffas.


"It was nearly going to be Craig Joubert in 2011 but have you guys ever considered than when there is something to play for a stakes are high, France are just better than you??"
first of all, All Blacks have faced france in two RWC finals, both of which the All Blacks won, so no, the french arent better then the All Blacks considering theres no higher stake then the RWC grand final.
secondly that right there is what seperates the All Blacks from the rest of the world, EVERY TEST is improtant no matter the situation. that very mindset has helped the All Blacks consistently be the force they are today as we treat every test like a RWC final.

@redsneck,

oh look good to see u crawl out from under that rock u have been hiding in since u got pwned with that byatch comment, LMAO, :oP

u bleat the same kak all the time, but its u who keeps ranting on about the referees the most, if its not kaplan its bryce, same ol stuff from u, what a bore, YAWN!!!

feel free to reply on ur byatch (whatever that is thread) but im expecting u to go hiding like u do every other time, :o)

Sasue

Cannot say you were not looking for an all-out attack by the prima donnas on this site.   Enjoy the consequences.  LOL

As the only Saints Supporter on this site, I believe, I am totally in support of the ban and think that Wayne Barnes Reffed the Final perfectly well.

It wasn't his fault that my team failed to deal with their own inadequacies on the pitch, nor that our Captain is so stupid that he makes an abusive comment a couple of minutes after being warned by the Ref that he will be sent to the stands if he hears him do it again. We all saw him look directly at the Ref as he said it, so his excuse that he was levelling the comment at Tom Youngs was not a very bright one. But there you go, as one who has never wanted that boy playing for her Club, let alone Captaining it or playing for her Country and as one who has made her views on his intellect and lack of discipline very clear over the years, it was hardly a surprise and does not really need further discussion.

He has had plenty of time to grow up and has failed to do so. Now, the vast majority of the fans seemed to have become as childish as him and are acting like he is the wronged party, even making very serious and dangerous claims that the officials were totally corrupt in that final. It seems that the NZ influence at the Club has permeated down the ranks and we will blame all on a Referee. Sad when that happens, I think !!!

On a serious note, matches between us and Leicester are now getting very nasty indeed. It's worrying when an atmosphere starts to become like that. It's also pathetic that a section of the crowd are hell bent on making it impossible for Barnes to Ref any of our matches in the future. Quite frankly I'm ashamed of them.

As for Hartley, he was lucky to be picked ahead of Best in the first place, although Best's throwing has been abysmal of late and his form hasn't been the greatest. But I would still have picked him in my Squad, alongside Hibbard and Youngs.

I don't know what will happen with England. Lancaster is quite tough on players discipline and Rob Webber is back to fitness now, so maybe he will find himself out of that Squad too. And some at the Saints are asking for him not to be Captain next year.

"It's also pathetic that a section of the crowd are hell bent on making it impossible for Barnes to Ref any of our matches in the future. Quite frankly I'm ashamed of them."

Pretty much the way I feel about the countless blubbering South African crybabies who went as far as making death threats against Bryce Lawrence and effectively ended the career of one of the world's top refs.

Not sure what will make all these whiny ref-bashers happy. They're either aware of a pool of better and more qualified refs than the likes of Wayne Barnes and Bryce Lawrence or else they're stupid enough to think that 2nd tier refs will do a better job than the 1st tier refs. One thing we do know is they don't come up with any constructive ideas . . . they just stamp their little feet and demand that refs miraculously become exempt from normal human error.

Oh and before Baboon-ou jumps in here and starts grunting about bizarre stuff like refs having their banking accounts monitored or results being reversed days after the game finished, please note that I'm talking about constructive ideas, not the unintelligible ravings of a dullard with the IQ of a subnormal baboon.

The likes of Bryce Lawrence, Wayne Barnes and any other IRB sanctioned refs that the snivelling ref-bashers care to mention are as good as it gets. If they still don't like it, they should go find another sport to comment on . . . and good luck to them finding a sport with perfect umpiring, refereeing or officiating!

I agree, Rooinek.

To some extent, we have all suffered losses because of the mistakes of Referees. If they are genuine errors, so be it. They are only human and that is what makes us watch sport really. The intangible quality of it all.

Wayne Barnes really did nothing wrong. He was penalising Tongahuia for not staying straight at the engagement all match. His hips weren't straight, so he should have done something about that !!!

The incident leading up to the scrum where Hartley was sent off was our own mistake. We shouldn't have kicked out from the 22 drop out. He told us we couldn't do that, we all know we shouldn't do that, so why did we ? !! Leicester got a legitimate penalty at the scrum, Hartley had been warned after using abusive/agressive tones towards the Ref only minutes before and then said that to him. He had to go. There was nothing wrong with that decision at all and only an idiot with no knowledge of the rules or any love of the game and its values would question it.

Sometimes Refs do get it wrong. They seem to have it in for certain players but you have to try and rise above that and keep discipline no matter how hard it seems.

Oh pleeeease how naive can one get. Refs  makes mistakes they are only human.  

Hillarious stuff. Ou rooitwit rules out any chance of bias/ crookery and believes all is well. Match fixing can't happen in rugby as every ref is totally honest and competent. Sides getting the short end must just shut the hell up eh rooitwit?

What a sweat dear ou rooitwit is - so innocent in the ways of the world.  Honiss asking Smit to chat to his forwards and then allwing Ireland to score was just a mistake- this what we are asked to believe. Man how silly can one get. How hopeless,  how completely frot. 

I will remind you rooitwit that Marks an oz ref was booted out and the IRB fired that apology of a ref bryce lawrence.

If players and coaches deserve censure for bad performances so should refs and most particlularly cheating/biased refs. Away with these blights on the game. Away with ou rooitwit defender of cheating/biased refs.

Lady Becs I cannot believe you would condone cheating/bias by refs and trust you will make that clear to ou rooitwit. What a skelem ou rooitwit is!!!!

Wehe! I knew my post above would cause Baboon-ou to unravel!

Baboon-ou, the fact that a blithering idiot like you disagrees with my comments so strongly validates everything I'm saying about you pathetic ref-bashers. Thanks!

LMAO!

One forward pass and the squeals are unending. No comment about that of course from ou rootiwt or the other kiwis. Are you surprised?

At the time I blasted the decision which in my view was NOT a mistake.
 

Beeno a model of consistency.

Well it appears Barnes' reffing of the scrum was up for debate. No question Hartley had to be banned by the Epsom committee (nice golf course, which I'm sure they enjoyed after the meeting). But did it need to get that far? Hartley, as captain, was in constant communication with the ref....a little humour and patience and the reaction would probably have been avoided.

Instead the Barnes' school master approach led to a disaster. A tainted win for the champions. Millions of fans denied the satisfaction of a legitimate contest.....sponsors denied their money's worth. It's the responsibility of the ref to try to manage the volatile emotions on the rugby field, to create a positive atmosphere for the contest....not to blindly punish the guilty.

Rooinek, without fighting and silly comments, do you honestly believe Bryce Lawrence in that quarter final was not blatantly cheating? I am asking you as a question. Im not worried about Honiss, Walsh or Barnes now. Just Bryce Lawrence. Do you think he blew a fair game that day?

I know there was issues with him in the Irish Aussie pool game too. How come Bryce was in charge of what became the 2 biggest upsets of the tournament? Of course Tonga over France was huge but that was a freak display by Tonga mixed with a really bad day at the office from the French.

This is why a lot of kiwi's are avid league supporters. Personally, I have never been interested in league but one thing you wont find in league is a ref dictating the outcome. 2 refs on the field and all you hear from them is the tackle count. They let the boys get on with it and the players determine the result. In my opinion, bring back rucking. No one ever died from a bit of rucking. We dont need refs telling players to get their hands off the ball, a size 14 boot will be all the talking they need. Ref must only get involved if the ball becomes unplayable. Scrum to the team going forward or the team that took it in. Get the refs out the game! Rugby is losing popularity.

@bluebok,

"To all the Kiwis saying us Saffas complain a lot about ref's, do any of you remember the 2007 world cup and that forward pass?? Yes, the one where the French scored and sent New Zealand packing. I remember how ALL of you bitched and moaned about that for days, months, actually, still now the subject is brought up. Please stop the double standards!!!! "

yup too true, there was a lot of bitching and moaning, but nothing the likes of what u hear reagrding bryce lawerence or as my original reply mentioned, the constant moaning and bitching of referees nearly every week by saffas now, its very sad and IMO its the stereotype of what i see in most saffa fans, but hey each to their own.

Sas, u are 100% right brother. There is way too much blaming of the ref. Everytime a team loses, we get people looking at the ref and the one or two "missed" calls. It is getting ridiculous so yes, us saffas especially, in this case need to quit that shit.

I think the Bryce Lawrence debacle will die hard because this is a case of actual cheating. Wayne Barnes missed a call, Steve Walsh missed a few calls at the most crucial time, Honiss made one stupid mistake but Bryce Lawrence cheated at almost every turn in that game. I mean, the fact that he lost his job says it all. Alas, we must move on. He has been "punished" and we will never truely know what could have happened if the Boks met the AB's but history will forever say AB's won it so we must move on. Cant change history!

I want to see much less of referees in rugby. IRB needs to find a way to nullify them somewhat and let rugby be rugby!

Sas, as for your comments about Barnes bragging in the bar after the game. This is news to me?? Was this from a reliable source or just some hearsay that went around??

Well Sasu turn back the clock a few weeks, and you were telling us the penalty try against the Stormers was good. Then the reffing review showed it was a mistake. A mistake by the guy who had all the video evidence.

Bad calls happen, in a fast sport like rugby with complicated rules.  We have to accept that. But even Aussie writers decried Lawrence's performance. It was so poor that the suspicion that it was deliberate was inevitable.

The bleeding heart stuff on this string about no ref criticism is naive. This all starts in the commentaries where many of these errors are discussed and highlighted. In the case of the Stormers penalty try one of the Aussie commentators raised doubts about the whole thing.

Fans will naturally question calls that are doubtful. It's part of the passion of sports and it happens in all sports. In The Black Hawks vs Red Wings ice hockey series a perfectly good Chicago goal with two minutes to go in the deciding seventh game was negated. The Commentators were scathing about the call. Tiger Woods was assessed penalty strokes after the officials had missed an illegal drop. Hell some tennis players have even challenged Hawkeye.

Assessing the performance of the refs is part of sports ....only a fool would think it wasn't.

Repeat.  ....apologies.

 Lolz at illogical smallcock and his sanitised narrative about Barnes just missing one call (the forward pass)> Geez dumb ass, if it were just one call most Kiwis would have gotten over it but if you had actually watched the match youd know that the missed forward pass was just the most obvious of a litany of poor call Barnes made that night.  

Who can forget Luke McCallister being sin binned for running obstruction? Please post a link to another match where another player has been sin binned for a similar offence in a test match. Or what about 60 minutes without awarding the ABs a single penalty. Or maybe you might know of another match where a referee believes a missed drop goal counts as a penalty advantage. Nowadays its common to see players take a punt at a drop goal under advantage knowing that a missed attempt will mean the original penalty stands and the team will have another shot at the posts. 

Oh, and when you ask Sasu for links/evidence supporting his statement about Barnes bragging, I assume you have similar evidence documenting Byrcies alleged cheating at the RWC such as bank transfers, recordings of phone converstaions and video of him taking pay offs  or are you just regurgitating the same old trired drivel you've been suckling on for alomost 2 years now?  If not, fokk off you whinging cnut!

The saffa fanboys marathon whinge continues 2011-2013 and on and on and on and on...........

Twatlogic: yes.

rooitwit could you please cease all comments (which are always in support of  refs regardless)   until you know right from wrong - which may never happen.

Bryce lawrence was a bent ref of that there can be no question - worst I have ever seen. He ruined his career by his actions so please dont blame us kiwi bird brains. It was the IRB who fired him after all - nz ref of the year gets fired. Bwahahahhahahahha says it all.

Barnes was nowhere remotely as bad as BL. That forward pass the kiwis complain about was blatantly forward and the touch judge could not possibly have got it wrong. Honiss was bent when he made that call against the Boks, It was not a mistake.

Lets call a spade a spade.

Nuked kiwi clearly has had his lonely brain cell fried by radiation etc!!  Just accept it nuked kiwi that kiwi refs are the worlds worst. 

End of Story

One thing the kiwis should takeon the chin was that dispite winning because of that forard pass - on the rugby played the French deserved to win.

In the last WC the French were very deserving of a win. They were significantly better than the abs. Only a bad ref performance by our own Craig Joubert allowed the undeserving abs to get their grubby hands on the cup.

My own take on Joubert is that he succumbs to home town pressure at times. He needs greater inner strength.

Boklogic I also like saSUE/StormingED- he is a dear oak! 

He is a rabid poster but its the content that is the problem. I fear too much fantasy rugby is effecting his judgement.  No matter we are here to assist wherever posssible.

No Baboon-ou, Bryce Lawrence wasn't fired. He was dropped from the IRB elite panel when he made it clear that he would not referee games in South Africa in future, shortly after he received death threats from small-minded and ignorant little crybabies like you.

One would think if you're going to make one refereeing performance the basis of your postings and the foundation of you rugby "knowledge" (snigger) then you'd at least take the trouble to find out the facts regarding that performance and the consequences of the embarrassing behaviour by so many South Africans.

Lolz at beanbrain. I see you have no cogent response to my request for links to other test matches where a player has been sin binned for obstruction; a missed drop goal counts as an accrued penalty advantage and/or a match with a marathon 60 minute spell without awarding a penalty. Once again bean brain reverts to ad hominen attacks and juvenile banter in a desperate atttempt to deflect the debate away from his cavernous intellectual deficiencies.. Bean brains attempts at illustrating his rugby nous are ALWAYS restricted to long copy and pastes from other equally vapid saffa posters and sparingly altered facimiles of their paranoid conspiricies.. Oh when oh when is beanos wee brain going to formulate an ORIGINAL and well developed debate of his own?

Beanbrain, the great pretender.

 Rooinek - You are a bigger prick than I gave you credit for. Bryce Lawrence was condemned by many rugby analysts the world over and even the Aussies knew it was a hollow victory. They said as much. It was plain for all to see. You my friend are a dumb fuck! He was dropped from the 9 man elite panel to referee the rugby championship. Lynden Bray cited reasons being that he would not travel to SA. Haha read between the lines asshole. They could not give the real reason because the man probably would be behind bars!

Brainfreekiwi- I never said Sas was lying. I have just never heard that before and was genuinely asking him where he heard that info. Was it a rumour out of NZL or did that info go to press. Where is Bryce Lawrence today and where is Wayne Barnes today?? That is all the proof I need you stupid cunt. Bryce' career as a ref was shattered! It was clear to all who know rugby (so we dont expect you and rooipoes to get it) to see with the naked eye. We needed no further proof. Hell, when Aussies elite rugby men start cocking their eyebrows at an Aussie win then you know something is not right.

@mozter,

"Well Sasu turn back the clock a few weeks, and you were telling us the penalty try against the Stormers was good. Then the reffing review showed it was a mistake. A mistake by the guy who had all the video evidence."
that is some serious selective reading/memory u got there bro.
i commented on the game pretty much as soon as it finished where i said there was nothing wrong with it, epecially with all the evidence available at the time, that whole incident is playing a loop as i blog.
what the referee review said was there was only one piece of footage which CLEARLY showed the ball was knocked on, only that footage was neither shown on TV and at the time to the TMO.
lyndon bray then said he would talk to foxtel to find out why that footage wasnt available at the time.

if u remember i even posted the article here about that review. that particular footage is the only footage where it shows a clear a knock on, none of the footage shown on TV on the actual game day was conclusive as i and many here commeneted in detail about.

but not to worry bro, im sure we will get ample opportunity over the next 5 years to talk about it, :oP

Lol, no links then huh small cock re Barnes and 2007.  Let me dumb it down it down a little into manageable portions for your intellectually challenged solitary brain cell to grasp. why don't you just post a link referencing Brycie getting sacked as a direct result of his performance in the Lil Cocks V Wannabes, RWC 2011. Why bother, we both know your interpretation of events are a distorted illusion cultivated in the absence of worthwhile rugby trophies.  hehehehehe.  Oh but that's right, SA are the greatest rugby nation on earth and have the greatest player depth..........bwahahahahahaha.   BTW,  it amazing how quickly the Aussiies changed their tune after being man raped in the semis by the ABs. The general consensus in the immediate aftermath after the Bok V Wannabe match was that Brycie reffed an awesome match. Please post links where the Aussies criticised Bryce in the week following the Bok VWobbly match.

the points about barnes mistakes in that quater final mentioned by nukefreekiwi are common knowledge amongst most if not all NZ ers who watched that quater final, the main reason why u hardly hear anything outside the knock on is we dont consistently play the same tune like a broken record.

i will never cease to laugh at just how confident the saffas here seem that the Boks would have beaten the All blacks in 2011, despite only ever having doing so 3 times in the enitre professional era and zero times at eden park which is the All Blacks house of pain, never lost a game there in the professional era and have never lost to the boks there since 1936,,,or was it 37??? i cant remember, but i know it was before WWII, :oP

Twatlogic, first off you say this: "Rooinek, without fighting and silly comments, do you honestly believe Bryce Lawrence in that quarter final was not blatantly cheating?"

I answer your question with a simple "yes" and you reply with this: "Rooinek - You are a bigger prick than I gave you credit for" . . . before launching into yet another tearful ref-bashing tirade that I've heard from blubbering crybabies like you, Baboon-ou and Moffie a million times.

Tell me, Twatlogic, do you see your stinking and incredibly childish hypocrisy or do you need me to explain it to you with pictures or something?

Either way, if my perfectly reasonable, unambiguous and unprovacative answer makes you burst into tears then rather don't ask questions in future. Okay, little chap?

Even better, why don't you stick to your promise and ignore me completely as you've vowed to do so many times, Twatlogic? It's actually becoming quite pathetic the way you yap, squeal and snarl for my attention while trying to pretend you're "ignoring" me. I know you're just a pre-pubescent little zit-popper but do try to harden up a bit and stop behaving like a baby half your age. Thanks!

Boklogic ou rooitwit cant read the lines never mind between the lines.

When people of the stature of Prof Noakes ask for an investigtion of brycy etc it means it was really very bad.

Brycy was dumped like a hot potato by the IRB and rightly so.

nuked kiwi the French were better than you that day so regardless you fully deserved the loss. The abs looked like frightened dear in the headlights. They froze on the big stage and there was no ref to help them and in a rare instance they got the short end of a few decisions.

Do you realise you have only won one world Cup in all these years. We cant count the recent one as it was burgled. Hahahahahahahahahaha