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FORUM / RUGBY /  End of the Road for Habana & JP

End of the Road for Habana & JP

Started by sharkbok49 REPLIES1,076 VIEWS· 24 May 2017, 12:51
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sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,260 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,260 posts
24 May 2017, 12:51
#1
24 May 2017, 12:51#1
Probably the best wing combination of the professional era. But it appears they are now both done.  Neither has been selected for the Boks- so looks like it is the end of the line for both of them.
Habana is 33, with Pieterson still only 30. 
It is time to move on from pensioner Habana who is still a lethal finisher- but his pace and step is almost gone. JP's lazy running style gets lazier by the day. 
Neither will be contenders for 2019, so their only real value is passing on tips to the younger players.
At the end of the each world cup, there needs to be a routine clear out of players that will never reach the next world cup. 
Some of these players can stay on for one extra season after the world cup- in order to pass on the baton to the next batch of players. But teams work on 4-year cycles and need to peak for the world cup. 

Meyers team peaked before the world cup- and were lucky to get to the semi-final. The embarrassment to Argentina, and then Japan. Had the world cup been one or two years earlier, the Boks may have won it.
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
24 May 2017, 13:19
#2
24 May 2017, 13:19#2
Still young... both of them  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2017, 16:22
#3
24 May 2017, 16:22#3
 The slower they go the more likely it would be that they will beat the paceless Pietersen. 
Both were in the Springbok squad last year and both failed badly.  Not international players anymore.
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
24 May 2017, 23:13
#4
24 May 2017, 23:13#4
 Both young my arse DA. Habana is my favourite back after Carel, but he's time has passed. JP too. There are better backs around. Move on.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,260 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,260 posts
24 May 2017, 23:33
#5
24 May 2017, 23:33#5
I just realised that Willie Leroux is not in the team. While his chip kicks are a total liability- he is a very effective play maker and finisher.
I would have considered putting him back on the wing where he could roam from the blindside, and play at first receiver when there is quick ball.
WA
Wardad
Pro6,663 posts
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
25 May 2017, 00:08
#6
25 May 2017, 00:08#6
 Sad to see his career end ,a fine player by any s tandard.
AG
AgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
25 May 2017, 00:19
#7
25 May 2017, 00:19#7
 Often wonder how many tries Habana would have got for the ABs, luckily we never found out but he must have got at least 20/30 more
DA
Devil's Advocate
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DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 07:45
#8
25 May 2017, 07:45#8
DbDraad

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5574 RE: End of the Road for Habana & JP
May 24, 2017, 23:13:13

 Both young my arse DA. Habana is my favourite back after Carel, but he's time has passed. JP too. There are better backs around. Move on

 

LMAO


So.... 33 and 30 is now considered over the hill and too old to play this game.


Ok




DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 08:00
#9
25 May 2017, 08:00#9

For the record, I am not at all against dropping Springbok players due to form


I am however, against people here, using age as a measuring stick for how good a player is or could still be.


Some examples:

 

Danie Gerber 34 years, 214 days

Naas Botha 34 years, 261 days

Boy Morkel 36 years, 258 days

Deon Lotter 35 years, 307 days

Lofty Nel 35 years, 32 days

Frik du Preez 35 years, 252 days

Johan Ackerman 37 years, 34 days

Willie Meyer 35 years, 3 days

Willie Kahts 35 years, 42 days

Os du Randt 35 years, 42 days


 

CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 May 2017, 08:06
#10
25 May 2017, 08:06#10
 
Fraid so. The only thing they have at that age is experience ... but sadly the body no longer wants to co-operate.

JP hasn't been up to it for the last 5 years.

Man's age old quest .... eternal youth.

Combrinck is the new man on the block ... even though Quota Coetzee clearly doesn't think so.

Viva Les France.   




DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 08:07
#11
25 May 2017, 08:07#11

Some All Black's players ages


Again, I am not considering form here, just this general statement that 33 is now "old" in this game


                                  Age          Last Game

         

1.

Ned Hughes

40 years 123 days

 

27 August 1921

 South Africa

2.

Brad Thorn

36 years 262 days

 

23 October 2011

 France

3.

Keven Mealamu

36 years 225 days

 

31 October 2015

 Australia

4.

Frank Bunce

35 years 305 days

 

6 December 1997

 England

5.

John Ashworth

35 years 287 days

 

29 June 1985

 Australia

6.

Richard Loe

35 years 226 days

 

18 November 1995

 France

7.

Tane Norton

35 years 136 days

 

13 August 1977

British and Irish Lions

8.

Andrew Hore

35 years 72 days

 

24 November 2013

 Ireland

Colin Meads

35 years 72 days

 

14 August 1971

British and Irish Lions

10.

Charles Sonntag

35 years 51 days

 

27 July 1929


CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 May 2017, 08:11
#12
25 May 2017, 08:11#12
 
Well in that case we should bring Victor snd Bakkies back.

I wonder what Naas' doing in three weeks time?



DA
Devil's Advocate
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DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 09:25
#13
25 May 2017, 09:25#13

Ok......


So CC, just so I understand your take on this issue


You categorically maintain that a player that reaches 33 is too old to play this game anymore?


Yes or No 


Not maybe...... not "Oh, not if it was this player".... or not "Oh ,not if it was this position"


Is 33 years of age,  too old to continue playing as a professional rugby player, Yes or No


That is my point I am making, and that is the question I would like an answer to

RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
25 May 2017, 09:35
#14
25 May 2017, 09:35#14
Uh oh . . . the tone of Dumb Ass's post suggests the hand is already on the hip and the foot is starting to stamp.

Prepare for an explosion of self-righteous indignation!
PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
25 May 2017, 09:58
#15
25 May 2017, 09:58#15
 DA no age is too old. 
The determining factor is how 34 year old you compares to 25 year old you.
Both Habana and JP are mere shadows of their former selves.
Many players peak at 30. I'm a :JP fan, but obviously he peaked at 25. Sad, but it is what is.
Showing that Akkers or Matfield retired at x age proves or disproved nothing. 
So it's tough to have a discussion around misguided question. 
Not trying to be a dicck man. It's just how I see it.

DA
Devil's Advocate
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DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 10:04
#16
25 May 2017, 10:04#16
Rooinek

Status: Rugby Legend
Posts: 5390 RE: End of the Road for Habana & JP
May 25, 2017, 09:35:39

Uh oh . . . the tone of Dumb Ass's post suggests the hand is already on the hip and the foot is starting to stamp.

Prepare for an explosion of self-righteous indignation!

 

You are hilarious....


This post..... from the same moron who ran away from this board and told everyone on here to Fcuk Off..... because they didn't agree with him.


ROTFLMFAO !!

DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 10:10
#17
25 May 2017, 10:10#17
Plum

Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1474 RE: End of the Road for Habana & JP
May 25, 2017, 09:58:23

 DA no age is too old. 


The determining factor is how 34 year old you compares to 25 year old you.
Both Habana and JP are mere shadows of their former selves.
Many players peak at 30. I'm a :JP fan, but obviously he peaked at 25. Sad, but it is what is.
Showing that Akkers or Matfield retired at x age proves or disproved nothing. 
So it's tough to have a discussion around misguided question. 
Not trying to be a dicck man. It's just how I see it.


My point exactly Plum


How can you discount what those 20 players listed above, did after the age of 33.


How many of them changed the game on that day, from a loss to a win with their contribution and experience in those games at age 35 and 36.


I said already, I was not talking about form, just the fact that some on here believe that 33 is too old.


Besides that, I don't care what anybody here says, in a very tight situation in a world cup game, I would take experience over youth any day, and for the idiots that might twist that statement to suit their own stupidity, no, I do not mean a 40 year old player.

 

PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
25 May 2017, 10:46
#18
25 May 2017, 10:46#18
This is just my opinion but...
 In the case of JP and Habana its case closed. They are both much slower and I don't think their experience means outweigh what some of the younger more exciting wingers in SA offer.
Also, one would have to say that the position a player plays in, to some degree is has an age limit on it. I'd say that 12 and 13 and possibly 15 have an extended shelf life because a) fitness is such a massive prerequisite and b) reading the game which is helped by experience is an advantage in those positions.
As for the forwards. One flanker and on lock maybe could play until 35? A mix of youth and experience I guess.
I do however believe that provided a young guy is not demolished or outsmarted at scrum time, a team benefits from having a younger front row. They just get around the park better.
Just my take on it.
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 May 2017, 12:40
#19
25 May 2017, 12:40#19
 
YES!!!!!!!!!!

He's too damn old!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as I'm concerned 30 is pushing the limit.

Happy now??

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 13:38
#20
25 May 2017, 13:38#20
 I do not believe that age is a determining factor - the real issue is PERFORMANCE.   Some players peak at an early age and go dour at an earlier age than others.   There are two examples I can quote - Fat Fransie  Steyn and dead slow JP Pietersen.
Performance last year showed that Habana is not up to standard anymore.
In general players peak performance age is between 25 and 30 years of age.   After that the deterioration sets in - with some players it is more noticeable than in other cases.   For instance at the age of 31 Jea n de Villiers was still fine - at the age of 34 he was not anymore.   He should have retired before 2015.  

KI
kingcorn
Pro3,695 posts
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
25 May 2017, 14:06
#21
25 May 2017, 14:06#21
The good old question about what the right age is. I think that the older you get and especially when you hit your thirties your recovery time takes much longer. Given that JP, Havana and Bismark just came off an exhausting season so I don't think that they would add any Value, but I would have at least keep JP and Bismark in the Mix as he could add more recently value than Bongi and Rallepelle. On the age front, the all Blacks never had a decent hooked for many years after Fitzpattrict retirement. So Kevin was the best they had and same could be said of Brad thorn. No other lock in NZ could meet his physicality. But if I draw a comparison between the NZ and Sa is that holding on to long to players leaves a massive void for the next batch. Bismark should have replaced John Smith back in 2011 and I think Malcolm Marx is getting there but would been great to see the 2 battle it out. I would still pick Bismark over Bongi or rallepelle but they serve well as window dressing. It is pity JP had been such a plodder as we could really do in having a big wing like him to counter the likes of North, Ndollo, savea
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,260 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,260 posts
25 May 2017, 14:11
#22
25 May 2017, 14:11#22
It is not just a factor of age. 10+ years of professional rugby is going to wear and tear most players bodies. Especially players that get knee and leg injuries.
A player like Frans Steyn only has one knee due to injuries- so he no longer has a step or acceleration off the mark. This also effects his defensive play. 
By the time Christian Cullen was 25 he was already passed it- because he never really recovered properly from a knee injury. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2017, 14:48
#23
25 May 2017, 14:48#23
This age thing is mostly nonsense. I watched Gatlin at age 35 torch all the young sprinters in a Chinese meet last week. Boxers, weight lifters, sprinters are all extending their careers well into their 30s. Michael Phelps at 31 torched the much younger Chad le Toss at the Olympics ... The real issue with our older players is they are embedded in our traditional game....can they change enough to give new rugby a fair test? Maybe not. But whether new rugby will work is also unclear.
BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
25 May 2017, 15:06
#24
25 May 2017, 15:06#24
Age is relative. Some people at 65 years old are bent and broken and simply cannot work anymore, while others are still fit as a fiddle. Still 65 is considered old enough to retire. Rugby is exactly the same, some players older than 33 are still able to perform at the highest level, but for most players at that age, they are already some way past their best. There is a very simple way to decide, if you are better than your younger replacement, you stay on. If not, take a hike. In other words, it is about performance and not age, buuuuut, being over 33, chances are, you probably aren't at your physical best anymore. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 15:11
#25
25 May 2017, 15:11#25
 The normal BS is clear again - the normal attack n Le Clos.   How many world records in short course swimming does Phelps still hold and how many does Le Clos holds - here reference is to be to the butterfly events only?
Le Clos was clearly affected in the last Olympics by the family situation insofar as his parents cancer problems are concerned.   He has since won virtually everything he participated in and has set a new world record in short course racing.
I have to respond to BS attacks - but remain with my statement namely that age is not a norm in selection - performance is,   If that is the norm as a rule in a normal society - and SA is not one - it would be the best performing teams that will be selected.      
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2017, 15:25
#26
25 May 2017, 15:25#26
Poor old Pervert leaps to defend one of his 'seuntjies' surprise, surprise. Listen you old Fruit the whole world laughed at le Toss' tough guy act in front of Phelps, who responded the right way...sinking him in the pool.....so now you have responded, feel better?
BL
bluebok
Pro3,977 posts
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
25 May 2017, 15:25
#27
25 May 2017, 15:25#27
I agree regarding age Mike. However, comparing Le Clos to Phelps is just silly. Phelps is arguably the best athlete ever, Le Clos is just another top class swimmer. In other words, Phelps would be better than basically any other athlete regardless of the sport they played. So basically all sportsmen would pale in comparison with him. The age argument simply has no relevance when comparing the two. 
RO
Rooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
25 May 2017, 15:32
#28
25 May 2017, 15:32#28
"Fine Tokkie and goodbye, have a nice rest of your life. You simply aren't worth the effort.."

Wehe, that lasted what . . . 3 days?

LMAO!
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 15:33
#29
25 May 2017, 15:33#29
I never made  a comparison and never said Phelps was not the best swimmer ever in world swimming.  I merely responded to the normal BS attacks on Le Clos by Mozart.  
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 15:33
#30
25 May 2017, 15:33#30
I never made  a comparison and never said Phelps was not the best swimmer ever in world swimming.  I merely responded to the normal BS attacks on Le Clos by Mozart.  
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 15:36
#31
25 May 2017, 15:36#31

Precisely..... so I will reiterate my point that I made earlier


I said that age cannot be used as a measuring stick for how good a player is currently, or could still be, and from the replies here, it seems a lot of people agree.


Some however, seem to have missed my point entirely.





 

DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 May 2017, 15:37
#32
25 May 2017, 15:37#32

As for the resident board runner.... Piss Mint.... well he misses everything


Especially his dop  

DE
Denny
Captain12,893 posts
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
25 May 2017, 15:43
#33
25 May 2017, 15:43#33
 

As for the resident board runner.... Piss Mint.... well he misses everything


Especially his dop 


CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 May 2017, 16:12
#34
25 May 2017, 16:12#34
 
Habana at 25 was a lot better than Habana at 33.

That is not my opinion ... that is fact.

Combrinck as he currently is is much better than Habana right now. That too is fact.

Conclusion ... Habana can indeed still play rugby ... just not test match rugby ... he can no longer compete with the youngsters. That too is a fact.

So I repeat ... YES ... 30+ is waaaaaaaaaaaay past their best. It is better they go play rugby in Japan. Leave test rugby to the young and the strong.

I hope I never have to see a Bakkies running flatout with the ball again while Willie jogs beside him calling for it.



sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,260 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,260 posts
25 May 2017, 16:21
#35
25 May 2017, 16:21#35
If players were wrapped in cotton wool until they were 30 years old, they would still have some good years in them. Most rugby players pick up injuries over playing time which make them less effective. Fat Alberts was a prime example at the 2015 World Cup. Injuries caught up with him before age, and he was no longer an enforcer. The Boks lacked the physical edge they had in the Nort hern hemisphere- years prior to the world cup. 
PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
25 May 2017, 19:20
#36
25 May 2017, 19:20#36
 I agree with most of the comments on here regarding age. 
Moz I thought you made an interesting point about old dogs and new tricks. 
For example, would Bizmark, as good a player as he is, be able to emulate Marx's offloading game? Probably not. So it's not just about how one compares to your younger self. Since requirements may have changed during the interim.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2017, 21:58
#37
25 May 2017, 21:58#37
Precisely Plum.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 22:09
#38
25 May 2017, 22:09#38
Mozart 
I thought you never could stop nastiness and name-calling since whenever somebody disagree with you the nastiness is your only resource.
Despite that I thought we had an agreement that we may differ about issues without getting personal about it.  I did not start the latest perverse statements like you do.  So do you want to return to your normal style and revoke another agreement we reached barely a month ago?
 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 May 2017, 22:09
#39
25 May 2017, 22:09#39
Mozart 
I thought you never could stop nastiness and name-calling since whenever somebody disagree with you the nastiness is your only resource.
Despite that I thought we had an agreement that we may differ about issues without getting personal about it.  I did not start the latest perverse statements like you do.  So do you want to return to your normal style and revoke another agreement we reached barely a month ago?
 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 May 2017, 22:35
#40
25 May 2017, 22:35#40
Troll through your own posts before you start whining......I'll give you one example: ... ' So Fat Fransie is the cover at flyhalf according to Coetzee - a position he was even more disastrous than at center. I note Mozart has gone quiet on Fat Fransie since his 2014 stats were exposed how wickedly poor he really was.' ... Post after trolling post I have ignored....about Frans, Vic, Morne.....not a peep in response from me. And then I make an absolutely factual post about Le Toss and you have the temerity to throw a hissy fit? And then when you get snotklapped you are wounded. ... Try to stop being a gadfly, and a know it all.....your performance in Make Believe Rugby, that you obsess over, demonstrates you don't know much.
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