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FORUM / RUGBY /  England crash out of the Football World Cup with one measly Point

England crash out of the Football World Cup with one measly Point

Started by sharkbok40 REPLIES500 VIEWS· 24 Jun 2014, 22:02
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sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
24 Jun 2014, 22:02
#1
24 Jun 2014, 22:02#1
On another day it might have all been different. NOT! Just listening to the England Manager Hodgson talking up a performance where they got a draw, and 2 losses.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Jun 2014, 22:13
#2
24 Jun 2014, 22:13#2
 And still the FA has confirmed their support for old Woy. Uncle 'arry must be having a giggle.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Jun 2014, 22:24
#3
24 Jun 2014, 22:24#3
 Sharkbok
It was not only England crashing out - Spaiin, Croatia and Italy is on the same flight back.  The other European countries are mostly in doldrums as well - those include Bosnia. Greece. Portugal and possibly also Russia.
It looks more and more that the only countries who has a chance to survive into the next round is the Netherlands, Belgium. France and Germany.
The South and Central American countries are ruling the roost this year, with Costa Rica, Mexico. Colombia, Chili. Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay all in the potential next round line-up.
It looks more and more like a di saster for European Soccer - especially England.  The deficient development of local talent is largely to blame for it.    
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Jun 2014, 23:21
#4
24 Jun 2014, 23:21#4
 Uruguay could have serious trouble. They are built around Suarez, who has been in the shit last year for biting. The same Suarez who did a Maradonna against Ghana in the 2010 semi-finals and the same Suarez who was in the shit for biting last year and some time ago before. Guess what he did against Italy? Yep. He fucking bit a player again. Idiot. Apparently the ref didn't see it.
OI
oimatey
Pro1,870 posts
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
24 Jun 2014, 23:48
#5
24 Jun 2014, 23:48#5
He has to wear this the rest of the World Cup

sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
24 Jun 2014, 23:55
#6
24 Jun 2014, 23:55#6
Uncle 'arry R  Hednap just woke up, Drank a 2 pints and fell asleep again.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 01:01
#7
25 Jun 2014, 01:01#7
 Nope, SB. Uncle 'arry is busy fixing up QPR. He is dedicated to get them on track again.
BO
bobbok...
Captain10,129 posts
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
25 Jun 2014, 01:44
#8
25 Jun 2014, 01:44#8
Rio Ferdinand has signed for the mighty QPR & hopefully Lampard can join his uncle 'arry as well .

England's defenc e was surprisingly poor .
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 01:55
#9
25 Jun 2014, 01:55#9
 Blob, do you really want ol' CleverTrevor to get a fit, saying that they need a bunch of "old ballies"to  rescue QPR?

I actually watched a  video  clip,  a few days ago, of the day back in 1996 when Harry took a lot of flak when in the media because he signed his you nephew for Westham. They were taking the piss at him, and he told him that Frank will go all the way to the top. This is it.




MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2014, 02:03
#10
25 Jun 2014, 02:03#10
 Classic Matey. As the US host said...a Hannibal Lecter moment.
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
25 Jun 2014, 03:24
#11
25 Jun 2014, 03:24#11
 Whatever anyone says, at least we do not resort to such acts on the field as the likes of Suarez yet again. He is a disgrace.

And I am sorry but whatever any if you say, it is the lack of young English players in our Clubs and the ridiculous wages paid by Clubs owned by people with no desire other than to make money for their "brand" that is causing the downfall of the national game. It has long been said and it is right.
It is our country and we should want the best for it. That is not happening at present and has not been the case for many a year. 
So something needs to change or this will be what the fans will have to look forward to from here on in. 

And god help us if the domesday scenario permeates into Rugby. Some Clubs have already started to fill full of non English players. It can't be allowed to happen, just to try and chase a modicum of success. 

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2014, 10:11
#12
25 Jun 2014, 10:11#12
 becs
I think I said previously exactly what you are saying now and even hinted at it in my comments under this thread.   
You find it hard to find enough English players in rugby clubs - lots from Wales, Scotland and other countries.   In France it is an epidemic.  In the Heineken Cup final there were apparently 14 SA players in the squads of the two finalist teams out of 46 players,  If you add in the Aussies,, New Zealanders. Argentinians and others - foreign players were nearly half of the players.
That is just not good enough from a local player development perspective and I remain convinced that the situation is going to impact negatively more and more on the national teams of the countries concerned.    
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 11:51
#13
25 Jun 2014, 11:51#13
 There is nothing wrong with the available talent in England. There problem lies in their coaching set-up. In the 2010 world cup they had Fabio Capello who was a clown. He has since moved on to Russia, and guess what happened? They bombed out early as well. This time around they appointed Roy Hodgon who dumped all his experienced defending players. Apart from that, they were very unlucky to have a lot of injuries to key players. Many of the teams who are shining at this tournament are also built around a few key individual players and guess what? By far the most of them play for European clubs and many of them play in the English Premier League.

Take Suarez, who is playing for Liverpool, out of the Uruguayan team and they are stuffed. Take Messi, who is playing for Barcelona, out of the Argentinian team and they will suffer. Take Gervinho, who used to play for Arsenal and now plays for and now plays for Rome, as well as Didier Drogba, who used to play for Chelsea, out of the Ivory Coast team and they will suffer. They only teams who are well balanced and do not rely on a few key players only are Holland and Germany.

Had England players like Theo Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain available and had Hodgson played his reliable, but older, defenders like Terry, etc it could well have been a completely different story.

As for foreigners taking up places, I am still not convinced. There was a long argument about how Argentina, etc should be allowed  to play in the S15 because SANZAR has an obligation towards other countries. Many of the African countries, for instance, would not have very experienced and well developed players had it not been  for the EPL, etc playing them in the league. In any case, if you look at the numbers, you will see that there are plenty of opportunity for English players to make it to the top. There are 20 Premier  League clubs and each of them have a first team squad of around 30 players. That comes down to 600 players,playing in the league. If  only 20% of them are English, it amounts to 120 top class players to choose a national side from. If you cannot select a strong 25 man national  aquad from that, then I don't know.


CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Jun 2014, 12:09
#14
25 Jun 2014, 12:09#14
Ceradyne 
Really?   England has a very good Under 20 team - but how many of those players will end up in the so-called 20 Premier Laague Clubs.   I thought there were only 12 teams participating in the Aviva competition - and the other clubs play a second string role.
Be it is at may - they may have 120 candidates - but how much competition is there for the 15 various positions in the team?   Break that down and you will find that in some positions the team is not as strong as it should be.
However, England is digging there own grave but you apparently live in a dreamland as to wider issues affecting rugby and soccer.   But what can one expect from a Bulls supporter - you really should join the Bulls Dumb Supporter's Club.  You apparently does not realize - when players are past their best or not performing - so that says it all. 
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
25 Jun 2014, 12:24
#15
25 Jun 2014, 12:24#15
 No Ceradyne, you are incorrect and that has become blindingly obvious to every man and his dog during this WC, a fact that has been discussed since the 1950's when things started to change in the world of football.
One if the papers, the Times, I think, showed which team provided most players for this tournament. Big surprise, it was Man U and they provided players for almost every team in the damned WC ! Ridiculous. 
Foreign owners want a brand, to make money or use them as a tax break. They do not want to provide the English National side with enough players of any quality to win a WC and that is a fact. 
I am afraid the fans are culpable in the respect that they want their team to win at all costs and they are sucked into the thinking that no player from these shores is in any way comparable to those from foreign shores. So no-one gets the chance, they are left kicking their heels. Those that do, get to become bloated, overpaid wasters who have ideas above their stations and there is something very rotten in the world of Football

A true fan should actually support their local side, should they not ? First and foremost. Instead of latching on to the biggest, most successful club in the world/country ? 


And a player like Suarez, talented as he is, has no place on a football field anywhere in the world. But I see excuses are being made for him and he will no doubt continue in his overpaid, bloated lifestyle, going around committing assault......just because he can kick a football. 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 12:44
#16
25 Jun 2014, 12:44#16
 Uhmmm what has the 12 Premiership (rugby) to do English Premier League (EPL) which is a football league?

It is also not a "so-called" Premier League. It is actually the name of the competition you fucking moron. 

You have no clue what you are talking about. I have actually, in the mean time checked the actual numbers. There are a total of 546 players currently in the EPL. That is with the transfer window still open until the end of August (IIRC). The total number of English players is actually 207. There are 11 players in a football team , not 15. I guess you are still confused between the England Premier League and the Premiership. In any case, let's compare two situations. We have five S15 franchises. Each of them have a squad of about 35, which comes to a total of 175 players. We can select a Bok squad of 35 out of 175 players, yet you are trying to convince me that you cannot select a top class 25 man football squad out of 207 players?

To take matters a bit further. In the S15, the top players get most of the game time, followed by the bench players who get a bit more and the fringe players hardly getting any game time. That make the selection and player management process even more complicated.

In the England Premier League, the players gets rotated and get ample game time to showcase themselves because they are rotated. They have to be rotated because there is no way that you would get through a season if only the top players play game after game. The teams play a hell of a lot more games than what their rugby counterparts play. They play, to start off with, 38 rounds of Premier League games. Then they also play the FA Cup competition and the Football  League Cup. Those that qualify also play in either the UEFA Champions League or the European Cup. In between that, they also have international windows during the season.

What is also important is the fact that a player does not need to be in one of the top clubs to get opportunities and exposure. Even the players in the clubs at the bottom of the league get the opportunity to play against the some of the best players in the world. A 18year old player form, let's say Queens Park Rangers, can easily get to play against a Luis Suarez or a Mario Balotelli (who will in a ll probability return to the EPL in the new season) or a Robin van Persie. Those who are lucky can even get to play next to them in the same team. That was what happened when Jack Wilshere, as a 16 year old, got to play next to Robin van Persie (Holland) and Cesc Fabregas (Spain) in the same team.

Once again, there is no way that you are going to tell me that there is not enough opportunity for football players in the UK.
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 12:55
#17
25 Jun 2014, 12:55#17
 "One if the papers, the Times, I think, showed which team provided most players for this tournament. Big surprise, it was Man U and they provided players for almost every team in the damned WC ! Ridiculous. "

No. It is not. You fail  to see the positive in the situation. It means that many of the top players in the world are scattered all over the England Premiership  and the English players get to play with and against them on a regular basis. What better can a player ask for? The SA rugby players in the CC play, who are not involved in the S15 play against the same South African Players four times a year. What I am trying to say is, for instance, the Blue Bulls players play the same WP players four times a year. Twice in teh Vodacom Cup and twice in the CC. Those who play in the S15 play the same SA teams twice in the S15 as well and then a few games against some of the Aus and NZ franchises. Under the new proposals, most of them will get even less game time against Aus and NZ and will be up against Arg and probably some Asian teams and they will have to travel all over the world for that. The England football players have the opportunity to compete against the best on the world on a weekly basis right here in their own back yards, or just across the English channel in the EUFA or the European Cup.

sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
25 Jun 2014, 14:09
#18
25 Jun 2014, 14:09#18
If Manchester provided the most players to the World Cup than any other club, then why are their non -english players performing at the World Cup?
Why do foreign players who play for English Clubs perform at the world cup, or in general better than English players (at club level and international level) if they are playing in exactly the same tournament- the premiership.
If playing in the premiership is so bad, surely it would effect both national and international players. It is the same conditions after all.


BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Jun 2014, 14:24
#19
25 Jun 2014, 14:24#19
 Ou windpomp is obviously totally confused. The simple truth is if more English players were playing in premier comps it would benefit the national side. 
If we had more to class pla yers to choose from we would likely have a better Bok side. Less talent overlooked, more depth etc.
France are likewise shooting themsleves in the foot big time with all their rugby imports.
Thanks Becs for putting windpomp right. 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 15:03
#20
25 Jun 2014, 15:03#20
 "If we had more to class players to choose from we would likely have a better Bok side. Less talent overlooked, more depth etc."

Hahahaha. Now that is a contradiction, if ever I saw one. We have been hearing for ages how stupid HM is for selecting overseas talent when we have such a wealth of raw talent right there under his nose in SA.

Nice try ou Beenbal. Nice try. If we can select a national 35 man rugby squad out of an available 175, and still stay at no 2 in the world, why should England have difficulty selecting a 25  man squad out if 207 players who are playing against some of the very best in the world almost on a weekly basis? Just explain that to me.

Another conundrum for you. SA are 2nd out of 102 rugby playing nations. We are 65th out of 207 football playing nations. We have rugby players playing in Europe and Japan and competing in the SANZAR competitions. Who do our football club players compete against on a regular basis? Their own tjommies in SA, and that is it. That is one of the main problems with our football. Why don't we just get internationalplayers to strengthen our local football competitions then? For the same reasons we cannot lure top class international players to play in our local competitions and, of course, for the same reason why we are loosing rugby players to sides in England, France and Japan. Bugger all to do with HM like so many would  like to believe.
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
25 Jun 2014, 15:13
#21
25 Jun 2014, 15:13#21
 Firstly Ceradyne, I keep seeing you talking about " Westham ". As I once said before, and you obviously missed, the team is West Ham.

For the record, Opta State of the Game Study 2013.English Footballers account for LESS than a third of all minutes played in the Premier League. The figure for home country players, 32.26% is was down from 35.43% in 2007/8
It is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than all other major European Leagues. 
A few quotes from those who know better than I, and all pre Brazil.Chris Waddle ( England ,85-91, 62 Caps ) " Prem is a great product to sell around the world but for the national team it does a lot of damage.All this money flying around in the Premier League, and grassroots is going backwards "Former FA Chairman Lord Triesman said it was an " acute problem and getting worse " Former Northern Ireland International Billy Hamilton said that the figures painted a " bleak future " for his country. " Well, if the Premier League don't introduce a cap on foreign players to four or five in a team I can tell you the English will never win another tournament "FA Chairman Greg Dyke spoke of the " frightening trend " in the reduction in the number of English players playing regularly in the Prem.Against the backdrop of a growing foreign influence in the League, Dyke warned England might not be able to compete seriously on the world stage without changes to the domestic game.Alan Shearer ( 63 Caps, 1992-2000 ) said " it makes it harder for England, there's no doubt about it " 

But of course, none of the above has any relevance whatsoever on the decline in football in my country and they are all talking nonsense. Because you all say so and you all know best.
Maybe you should concentrate on football in your countries and let us sort our own out ? Perhaps that might be an idea ? Because our game is what is important to us and some of us don't care whether you want to watch a bunch of overpaid foreign imports clogging up our teams at the expense of our youngsters and our national side. We've had enough.
Ok ? 
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
25 Jun 2014, 15:31
#22
25 Jun 2014, 15:31#22

Why all the tense postings

 

Relax all you peeps, DA's back  

CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 15:48
#23
25 Jun 2014, 15:48#23
 
" Firstly Ceradyne, I keep seeing you talking about " Westham ". As I once said before, and you obviously missed, the team is West Ham."



Yes, it may be true that English players account for less than a third of game time, but true to  the nature of any stats, the figures  alone doesn't tell  the true story.
 You can not get away from the fact that the players are exposed to top class competition on a regular basis. The problem with the England football side is in their management and has nothing to do with the EPL competition or the international players in the sides. If anything, it should motivate the youngsters to get those top spots in the top sides.

One of the biggest problems is the attitude of many Brits, and don't tell me that I don't know because I am not British. I have been in this country long enough to see what is going on. Many have an attitude of "somebody has to look after me and give me handouts". My wife is the Housekeeping Manager at a hotel and the staff members who give her the most problems are British. They are too lazy just too lazy to work. She has foreigners who  have been working under her for  a few years now. None of the British housekeepers last longer than a few months. She has two British persons who have been with them  for  more than two years. It is standard procedure on Saturday and Sunday mornings to get a phone call and be told that this, that and the other has phoned in and cannot come to work. Nine times out of ten it is a British person. That is of course apart from the fact that they cannot work longer than 20 hours per week because they will loose their precious "handouts" (benefits).

It is the same  for the football players. They should just pull out their fingers ans improve to get those top spots. Instead they want top money for nothing. Whenever they have an issue, they throw their toys and get their behinds licked. How many times has Rooney not done that?

Alan Shearer is correct. It does make it hard but is it wrong to have to work extra hard to get something? I don't think so.

Introducing a cap on foreign players is not solving a problem. It is nursing one of the symptoms.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
25 Jun 2014, 17:00
#24
25 Jun 2014, 17:00#24
 Their could be a national football pub championship in England where all 100 players are English, 
or their could be the premiership where only 25% are English, but this 25% is 150 players.
Which batch of players would you rather select from?

CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 17:41
#26
25 Jun 2014, 17:41#26
 Those are two interesting articles, DA. The first one for the comments at the bottom of the article. Those reflect what the public think about the remarks by the outgoing this, and former that, etc has to say. Some of the comments:

Truth Hurts, London, 1 year ago

Yea that's the problem old man, not the fact the FA is stuffed full of yesterday-people like YOU!

kalsavik, milton keynes, United Kingdom, 1 year ago

Spain, Germany, Japan, even Korea are now starting to play decent football. And yet, the English game still does'nt change. With the media quick to overhype players, and the Premier League focused on greed, isn't it time to change our myopic viewpoint and push for a radical overhaul of our football? Or shall we be bemoaning yet another English Team thats failed to qualify / win a tournament in 20yrs time?

leon tee, Harare, Zimbabwe, 1 year ago

English players are simply not good enough

Simon James, England, United Kingdom, 1 year ago

I am sick of listening to idiots like Bernstein, Bevington, Brooking, Sheepshanks, Southgate, Hodgson and the rest of them that have failed English football with their inept management. We have had fifty years of failure...we are further behind in world football than we have ever been. We commission statues to be built of Walter Winterbottom (Brooking's mate) who was nothing more than an average manager and ignore the man that actually won the world cup for us!!!!!!! We gullibly gawp at Spain, France, Germany or any country that wins a match wondering how they develop players!!! We spend over £100 million pounds on St. George's Park and pay hundreds of coaches, trainers cooks and bottle-washers to molly-coddled our over-paid pampered footballers who can't even turm up for an under 21's tournament. It is a national disgrace of breathtaking proportions. Clueless suits that are there for the privileged life-style and freeloading world travel.

Jimosai, Canada, 1 year ago

The problem is the big clubs want to be able to compete in Europe, so putting players in the side that aren't good enough is not an option. Is it really about money? Are Chelsea and the Manchester clubs really concerned with how much money they make? Tottenham and Arsenal are concerned with balancing the books but not with turning a profit, and it looks like Arsenal will be joining the ranks of the big spenders soon. I think its likely they are chasing success in the best way they know how. The problem is the youth system and I remember reading an article on Talksport.co.uk that was an interview with Les Ferdinand complaining about how difficult it was to get your coaching license in England and it was comparing the number of FIFA a coaches in England versus the like of Germany, Spain and Italy. Germany, Spain and Italy had 35000, 30000, and 25000 respectively, whereas England had less than 6000. Thats the problem right there. Courses need to be cheaper and more accessible.

franwal857, Manila, 1 year ago

Money and greed by the suits has and always will be the problem. Plus FIFA's willingness to allow the four local national FA's to exist. Until the sense of reason descends on the UK footballing fraternity the UK islands will never see another winning World Cup side. When average players who havent won anything either at club or international level are proclaimed experts by the TV and sports media, the UK has no chance of winning anything.

Daniel, Manchester, 1 year ago

Start sticking the money into grass roots football then.... Help out coaches with better training, help out the little clubs who miss 1/2 their season because their pitches are waterlogged after half an hour of rain... Really how can they complain? I don't see the FA do anything for the junior teams round here, and when you put in so little, you can only expect to get the same out of it.

Ken, London, 1 year ago

I 100% agree with their comments, Action needs taken NOW

NedKelly, Blackwood, United Kingdom, 1 year ago

And how long has it taken to realise this then? He'll be telling us ticket prices are too high next


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2346658/David-Bernstein-Andy-Burnham-blast-Premier-League-failing-English-players.html#ixzz35eoqQLV8
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


The telling one, though, is the ESPN article. It seems that it addresses some of the things that I have said above.

So the first point to make about the failure of the 2014 campaign is that progress into the last 16 would probably have necessitated one of England's most impressive World Cup results, a win over either Uruguay or Italy in the group stage, two teams they have never beaten in the finals of any tournament. And as nobody believed that we were going to Brazil with one of England's most impressive teams, it was baffling to listen to the "realists" predicting exit in the quarterfinals. How were we supposed to get even that far?

The other thing to note is that many of the reasons given for England's failure are built around the notion of long, sad, national decline. This is a myth: We have, with the glorious exception of 1966, always failed. The foreign players, all of whom arrived in the 1990s, can't help us with the desperate inadequacy of the 1970s; Mrs. Thatcher and wage inflation do not illuminate the hopelessness of the 1950s, when there were playing fields for everyone, and Stanley Matthews was paid peanuts. Dutch kids have access to video games and junk food, and yet that tiny, Northern European country, with a population two-thirds smaller than ours, consistently produces world-class players.

Whatever is wrong with English football now has always been wrong, ever since we began playing the game at international level.

If England are ever to play in a World Cup final again, you can bet that the team will not include anyone who is now playing professional football. We need to begin with our 8-year-olds, and we need to start telling them that technique and intelligence, not strength and the will to win, are the qualities they need most.


sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
25 Jun 2014, 17:51
#27
25 Jun 2014, 17:51#27
 "This much seems clear: Whatever is wrong with English football now has always been wrong, ever since we began playing the game at international level. "
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,295 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,295 posts
25 Jun 2014, 17:57
#28
25 Jun 2014, 17:57#28
 England, and Europe for that matter are older countries than many of the other continents which were still agricultural. It means jack shit who invented something ages ago. Are we still going to hear in 1000 thousands years that England who are still a weak football team that they invented the game. 

Also I have also heard that the ancient greeks used to play a game much like football, and also rugby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Greece


Ancient Greek football player balancing the ball. Depiction on an AtticLekythos.
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
25 Jun 2014, 18:09
#29
25 Jun 2014, 18:09#29
What are you blathering on about ? 
Our League is full of foreign imports with owners who care not a jot about the national game and why should they ? Now that is the reality. Time for change.

Whether you like it or not, that is what is happening and what many have been saying for years. Just because some of you have left your homeland and gone abroad to live and work yourselves and feel defensive about this, that is not my problem. It is still a fact pertaining to sport. So, now is the time for change. Will it happen ? I doubt it. Should it happen ? Yes. 

And nothing you say will change that so you might as well shut up going on about it and making your idiotic claims about Greece and agricultural societies or maybe the teams they were talking about on the Opta study all having a "leave your English players at home day " or something when the stats counting took place. Or maybe they were all playing for Westham at the time !!!!!!!   
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 18:38
#30
25 Jun 2014, 18:38#30
 Way to go becs.....


MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Jun 2014, 18:55
#31
25 Jun 2014, 18:55#31

So how do we explain Italy's exit. Many of the top stars in Italian football are Italian...and yet the Italian team exited just like the Poms. I think the truth is, young British boys who haven't been very good at team games for the last 100 years, are even worse today with the distractions of comfortable middle class life. 

 

And in case the Stupidissimo set havent noticed....every European team is running out of gas in the last 20 minutes....it's the climate stupid.

MD
Monkey D Luffy
Pro6,277 posts
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
25 Jun 2014, 19:02
#32
25 Jun 2014, 19:02#32
i like soccer and yes i call it soccer cos it annoys the F out of my scottish bros at work,

but unlike my vast rugby knowledge which i always use to educate my slightly slow in the brain saffa cuzzies, i really dont F all about soccer.

i know i like the red devils, and that the el calssico is always worth watching, and that theres a ton of stars who i really enjoy watching (albeit 99.9% on replay highlights), but ive found the posts here really enjoyable, especially from ceradyne.

and i agree, please keep the nazi grammar police away, i wouldnt want brother beeno to be hauled to a timeout center,
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
25 Jun 2014, 19:14
#33
25 Jun 2014, 19:14#33
School sports have been eroded over many years, that is a given. But many talented young lads are chucked by the wayside before they reach their true pinnacle because players from overseas are shipped in.That is a fact and has been so for a very long time.
And yes, the climate is not great for us, but deal with it. Others have struggled too. 
As far as I am concerned, Brazil should not have a WC until it can sort out its abject poverty and social ills. Do not tell me this will help. It will not. The rich will still get richer. It is profane.
I could not care a jot about Italy and their woes. That is their issue and one for them to deal with.
We need to start to deal with our own for once. 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
25 Jun 2014, 20:51
#34
25 Jun 2014, 20:51#34
 

becs

Status: Squad member
Posts: 535 RE: England crash out of the Football World Cup with one measly Point
June 25, 2014, 17:14:24 School sports have been eroded over many years, that is a given. But many talented young lads are chucked by the wayside before they reach their true pinnacle because players from overseas are shipped in.That is a fact and has been so for a very long time.
And yes, the climate is not great for us, but deal with it. Others have struggled too. 
As far as I am concerned, Brazil should not have a WC until it can sort out its abject poverty and social ills. Do not tell me this will help. It will not. The rich will still get richer. It is profane.
I could not care a jot about Italy and their woes. That is their issue and one for them to deal with.
We need to start to deal with our own for once. 



Becs, if they lose out to foreign players, it is because they are not good  enough to challenge the foreign players. Easy as that. when I calculated those numbers of English players v total squads I noticed something interesting. The "lower" clubs have more English players than the "top" clubs but the squads of the lower clubs  are in some cases bigger. I still have the spread sheet. I can give you a few examples.

Arsenal have 5 English players in their squad of only 29 players.
Chelsea have a big squad of 37 players with only 7 English players.
West Ham (happy with the spelling? ) have a squad of 26 but they have 13 English players.
Recently promoted QPR have a squad of 30 players with 15 English players. Newcastle United have 11 English out of 35 players. What is also interesting is that Manchester United, who you mentioned earlier as big suppliers of WC players to other countries also have a fairly large contingent of English players, i.e. 12 out of a 29 man squad.

I have actually just doubble checked and discovered that I made small mistake. I had their total squad at 18 instead of 29. That brings the total  number of EPL players to 557 and not 546. That does not change the ratio of English players by much. The English players still make up just more than 37% of the total.

If you say that Brazil should not have a WC until they have sorted out their socio-economic issues, then SA should also not have had the 2010 one, either but that is a debate for another day. The only ones scoring out of the WCs are Blatter and co. It remind me of this cartoon by SA cartoonist, Zapiro:





What cannot be denied is the fact that the youth football in England has all to do with the FA suits and their management, or lack thereof, and nothing with the top EPL clubs. The clubs only go for improving their squads to win, which is paramount. Why would  they "import" expensive players if they have better local ones on their doorstep. There are not a lot of clubs that do not invest a lot in their youth academies. What does the FA offer as far as a  proper competition and marketing /promotion thereof is concerned? How many people know, without going to Google, who the finalists in the 2013/14 FA youth cup were? And that is a competition that has been running since 1953.

How much coverage is their for the U/21 Premier League? Who, without Google, won the U/21 Premier League? Half of Chelsea's winning professional U/21 side of 16 players were English players.

Who won the U/18 Premier League? Did you know that the winners, Everton, had 10 English players out of their squad of 14 players. The rest were two Welshmen, one Irishman and one Pole.

Nope. It is wrong, IMO, to put the blame for the state of English football squarely on the shoulders of the number of foreign players at the top clubs.


BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
26 Jun 2014, 16:19
#35
26 Jun 2014, 16:19#35
Squad's mean squat......it is game time given over to those players and, as a man that loves his stats, you have been provided with the facts.....English players are not on the field of play for any amount of time whatsoever. And that figure is dropping year on year. Take into account what matches the players were playing in to get that game time figure and actually, it might just have been a handful of players that created the figures anyway. So no, I am sorry. In this case, the stats say it all.And in England, our teams should have English players above all others.It is pathetic. 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jun 2014, 17:03
#36
26 Jun 2014, 17:03#36
 Becs, everybody is looking at the English players in the top clubs and extrapolate from there. They use averages at the wrong time, etc. There are clubs with 50% English players. Those players are exposed to much more game time  than the English players at the clubs with few English players. The numbers of English players v foreign players is not the problem. The problem. If you have a club that is running on business principles then you have to have the best available  within your financial limitations. The fact is that if it was possible for the top  clubs to field squads with 80% English players and still be in contention, I can guarantee you that that would be the way that they would  go. There just aren't that many English players of the quality that they need available.

That is why they have youth and development sides to try and develop those players but they are getting zero support from the FA and the men in the suits. Fact is that they only get criticism from a bunch of farts who wants to sit around and voice there opinions, in case somebody forget about their existence. That one article is 100% correct. The English international football side has always been crap. Long before the arrival of all  the foreign  players. If anything, they have at least lifted the standard of the Premier League. Not that it was a sub standard league, in any case. What I mean, and I have mentioned it a few times now, is that the presence of the foreigners make for a tougher competition and provides excellent exposure to top class opposition. I ask you again. What more can an English youngster ask for than to play next to or against a Robin van Persie, Cesc Fanregas, Oscar, Juan Mata, Nani, Yaya Toure, etc?
BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
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becsPro4,378 posts
26 Jun 2014, 17:11
#37
26 Jun 2014, 17:11#37
No, Ceradyne. The rot has set in and set in badly.
There are too many imports, grassroots is dead and buried with the constraints put on them and the fact that this Govt is intent on building all over this once green and pleasant land......we don't have enough houses, you see. Because of our population explosion. Not that we have exploded it ourselves, of course....... 

English Football is in terminal decline and the heart of the matter is the issue of foreign imports and club owners. That is what all the studies have now proven and what many fans have said all along, but we're not listened to. 
God help us when Rugby and the obsession with furthering the "brand" sends it the same way. 
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jun 2014, 17:49
#38
26 Jun 2014, 17:49#38

becs

Status: Squad member
Posts: 541 RE: England crash out of the Football World Cup with one measly Point
June 26, 2014, 15:11:14 No, Ceradyne. The rot has set in and set in badly.
There are too many imports, grassroots is dead and buried with the constraints put on them and the fact that this Govt is intent on building all over this once green and pleasant land......we don't have enough houses, you see. Because of our population explosion. Not that we have exploded it ourselves, of course....... 

English Football is in terminal decline and the heart of the matter is the issue of foreign imports and club owners. That is what all the studies have now proven and what many fans have said all along, but we're not listened to. 
God help us when Rugby and the obsession with furthering the "brand" sends it the same way. 



You are correct that the rot has set in, but it started long ago. Long before the arrival of the "hoardes" of foreigners. Look, I am  by no means saying that it is great that clubs are in a position that the have to import players to have the best, but they surely are not to blame for things going wrong at grass root.

You also have to distinguish which part of English football is in decline. If you say that it is the national sides, then I have to agree.If you say that it is the Premier League, then we will have to agree to disagree. Remember that the real culprits are a handful of Premier League clubs, and sadly for me, the club that I support is one of them. Having said that, Wenger has changed his stance in recent years though. Arsenal are definitely moved towards building the club around a core of English players, like Wenger has promised. We seem to forget that the Premier League is not the only league that is responsible for the development of English players. The EPL is actually the pinnacle and by right they should be feeding of players being identified and developed in the lower leagues as well. The EPL is the tip of the iceberg.

What I would agree,though, is that the EPL clubs probably do not pay enough attention to players in the leagues, I don't know. Then again, there are only so many spots open in the development sides and there are 1000s of players playing all over the show.

I might leave myself open to a lot of stone throwing from my fellow countrymen but t you should be glad that things haven't gone down like it has in SA though. I do not see English rugby going backwards within the structures that they have over here. I will obviously be reminded about SA's position at the top end of the world rankings, etc, etc but that is beside the point. There is hardly any scope for the average rugby player to get somewhere, unless he has made it to SA Schools level, etc. There are not many 23 -25 year old rugby players, who haven't been involved in the top junior teams, who have any chance of making it into the top provincial teams, let alone the Super Rugby Franchises. There is no proper club league system in SA. (club rugby in SA would be amateur rugby). I am not sure how it has progressed in the last 7 years but when I was last involved with a rugby club, in 2007, it was non-existent and in a rapid decline.

Over here they have proper leagues all over the show and the clubs compete and there are people looking out for talent. Even at the lowest leagues. I have often had a look at the league tables.

My son used to play for a club in Reading and it was anywhere near the top tiers of the league. He was playing for the third team. He was already 32 at the time and he only started playing again, after about five years, a year or two earlier. One day, during a game, I saw someone with a clipboard and a video camera. I started chatting to him and discovered that he was a talent scout and that somebody told him  about a youngster in one of the teams and he wanted to have a look at him.

I think a  lot of fans are disheartened by the performance of the national sides and are looking for scapegoats. I might be 100% wrong, but I do not see how the foreign players alone could be the problem.

BE
becs
Pro4,378 posts
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
26 Jun 2014, 19:14
#39
26 Jun 2014, 19:14#39
You look at it from a different viewpoint because you have not lived here and grown up with football fans, your Grandparents and their friends for example, who used to play themselves and who saw this coming way back when. Who saw the foreign influx and the money take over and their worst fears have become reality. That is why you will never understand.  
CE
Ceradyne
Pro9,374 posts
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Jun 2014, 19:32
#40
26 Jun 2014, 19:32#40
 Ahh, the old "you are not British" argument...

The major influx, from what I understand started, started in the 90s. The rot, again from what I understand, started long before that. 2+2=4.
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