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FORUM / RUGBY /  England have the best bowling attack.

England have the best bowling attack.

Started by Ek17 REPLIES314 VIEWS· 10 May 2012, 02:00
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EK
EkPro1,464 posts
10 May 2012, 12:07
#1
10 May 2012, 12:07#1

A refreshing insight on Michael Vaughn's statements in the media that England have the best Bowling attack:

Spoirt24 Blogger TruvanPunt

http://blogs.sport24.co.za/Looseball/vaughan-and-englands-fear-for-proteas-dates-back-to-2008

Months before the Proteas toured England in 2003 Nasser Hussain was an ambitious man. He told the media that he intended to beat Michael Atherton's record of 54 tests as captain; that he would captain England to more victories than the 20 achieved by Peter May; and that he would play at least 100 tests.

 

 

 

On day one of the first test at Edgbaston, a weeping Hussain informed journalists that he would resign as captain after the test.

 

 

 

His mind was made up by the flamboyant South African opening duo, Herschelle Gibbs and Graeme Smith. On that sad day in the life of Nasser, the two scored 338 for the first wicket.

 

 

 

Hussain did not achieve any of the said goals; and after 12 more tests, in his 96th, he bowed out on 20 May 2004. He was never the best batter or captain, but after his encounter with Messrs Gibbs and Smith, his tank was empty.

 

 

 

That is what the Proteas can do and that is exactly what they did when they returned to England in 2008.

 

 

 

Five years after Hussain’s captaincy ending encounter with the South Africans, the Proteas took care of another England captain, Hussain’s successor, Michael Vaughan.

 

 

 

When England lost the third test with 5 wickets, they also lost the series and their captain.

 

 

 

It was a painful and decisive blow for Vaughan who retired immediately; leaving England with the dilemma to find a captain for the last test.

 

 

 

Vaughan told reporters he had to resign to restore family ties. It was a smokescreen; the real reason for his drastic action was the rampant Proteas.

 

 

 

Vaughan did not play in the last test; in fact he never played test cricket again.

 

 

 

Vaughan’s recent comments about the next series between the two countries must be analysed against the background of his own traumatic encounter with the Proteas.

 

 

 

He is clearly optimistic about the English bowlers but in failing to say anything about the batters, he made it clear where England’s Achilles Heel is. He did not want to do so openly, but he did, very diplomatically, sent a message to the batters.

 

 

 

With his comments Vaughan intended to remind the current England bunch to brace themselves for the toughest test series of their lives. Vaughan is aware that the Proteas are at their best when they tour and they have a great record against the English in England.

 

 

 

Currently the two teams share the top test spots with 116 points each.

 

 

 

If England defeats the Windies 3-0, they will move to 118. If they win 2-0, they will progress to 117. If they lose any of the tests or win 1-0, they will remain on 116.

 

 

 

Whatever the points are when the tour starts, the team who wins the series will be the World Champion and it is not likely to change soon afterwards. In many respects this is the series of the champions; which makes it extremely exciting and important; enough so for Vaughan to start the war of words and the psychological warfare. We can expect more of this from former players of both countries as the time for the series approaches.

 

 

 

The English batters failed dismally against the ordinary bowling of Pakistan and Sri-Lanka and after being dominated in that aspect of the game, they should fear the worst against the best pace attack in the world.

 

 

 

Regardless of what Vaughan says; Dale Steyn, Vernon Philander, Morne Morkel, Marchant de Lange, Wayne Parnell and Lonwabo Tsotsobe, poses much bigger threats than Stuart Broad, James Anderson and their colleagues.

 

 

 

Graeme Swann is a good spinner, but he will be bowling at the best players of spin in the world. Chances of him dominating the likes of Jacques Kallis, Graeme Smith, Hashim Amla, AB DE VILLIERS and Jacques Rudolph, are almost zero.

 

 

 

With the English batters incompetent against spin, they will fear Imran Tahir and subsequently the pitches will not favour spin or Swann.

 

 

 

It is going to be a cracker, but the Proteas is much better than in 2008.

 

 

The Proteas will arrive on the Island as the outright favourites and they are likely to leave as the world champions.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 May 2012, 13:08
#2
10 May 2012, 13:08#2

Ek, the Proteas will have to fall away to lose to the Poms.

I must say though that Swann to me is  a better spinner than Tahir who has yet to really upset top order batsmen to the degree that Swann does. Swann is a top flight off spinner.

Of big momnt for us is how Dale Steyn goes. If he starts to swing the ball late England will be under huge threat.

 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
10 May 2012, 15:28
#3
10 May 2012, 15:28#3

Agree with you, but i also see the the nic little banter from ex players has started with Michael Vaughn's salvo. Curiosly though he left out the form of the English batsmen. I think the only English batesman currently in good form is KP. England however have one over us, they will play some test against the WI to warm up we have to play short format games against zim.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 May 2012, 16:15
#4
10 May 2012, 16:15#4

Are we playing any counties first-  haven't seen an iternary. That would be enough I guess.

I see Kevin Petersen is sick and tired of explaining why he plays IPL. Why anybody asks him is amazing. Its the money broer the loot! 

Willoughby I saw took 4 wickets in 5 overs in a county match. That guy is a real good swing bowler. England conditions probably suit him.

I aways love watching our sides at Lords etc. So rich in tradition. The poms are superb at that and royalty etc. I recently saw the film the Young Victoria. The visual aspect were stunning - just seeing the dining tables and palaces, pomp and ceremony etc.

 

 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
10 May 2012, 16:40
#5
10 May 2012, 16:40#5

Our Schedule:

Wed Jun 20 1st T20 - Zimbabwe v South Africa
Harare Sports Club       Thu Jun 21 2nd T20 - Zimbabwe v South Africa
Harare Sports Club       Fri Jun 22 3rd T20 - Zimbabwe v South Africa
Harare Sports Club       Sat Jun 23 4th T20 - Zimbabwe v South Africa
Harare Sports Club       Sun Jun 24 5th T20 - Zimbabwe v South Africa
Harare Sports Club       Mon Jul 9 - Tue Jul 10
10:00 local | 09:00 GMT
11:00 CEST Somerset v South Africans
County Ground, Taunton       Fri Jul 13 - Sun Jul 15
11:00 local | 10:00 GMT
12:00 CEST Kent v South Africans
St Lawrence Ground, Canterbury       Thu Jul 19 - Mon Jul 23
11:00 local | 10:00 GMT
12:00 CEST 1st Test - England v South Africa
Kennington Oval, London

As you can see only T20's against Zim and then Somerset and Kent before the first test. This should be enough against Kent and Somerset. However, I feel the England will be better prepared with the WI before us.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 May 2012, 17:27
#6
10 May 2012, 17:27#6

Many thanks EK, the count y matches ae of ver yshort duration - Somerset match only two days. I agree it looks thin. Also 20/20 is bad preparation!  Guys will need to knuckle in for the first test.

Would be better to play SA A side than Zim but mad bob loves his cricket!

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
10 May 2012, 17:50
#7
10 May 2012, 17:50#7

Now that i think of it, the majority of the test squad won't actually be playing in the T20's. So the main prep will only be the 2 2 day games against kent and Somerset. While England will be comeing off a series with WI. hmm looks even worse now. At least Philander will be well prepared, as he is playing county cricket now.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 May 2012, 11:01
#8
11 May 2012, 11:01#8

Excellent preparation for Philander as long as they dont bowl him into the ground!

I heard there was a big whinge from the Poms that all this was helping the Proteas and cutting their own throats. How is he shaping in English conditions?

Philander is a very skillful bowler. Leaned his trade well before steppinh up. Just hope his amazing run continues.

 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
11 May 2012, 15:26
#9
11 May 2012, 15:26#9

Honestly Beeno I'd be lying if i told you how he was doing as i have no idea, haven't been keeping tabs. What i like about him though is the fact that there i nothing fancy. Just good line and length, much like Mgrath used to be in some way. So it's not really a case of batsmen working him out, he is worked out. he is just executing very well.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 May 2012, 16:39
#10
11 May 2012, 16:39#10

Its good line and length and moving the ball both ways. A miraculaous start to his career at test level - isn't he the fastest bowler to 50 wickets ever? Amazing really. 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
11 May 2012, 16:58
#11
11 May 2012, 16:58#11

Technically he is second/third as the record is measured in tests played.

First on the list is CTB Turner for Australia achieved it in 6 tests in 1887

Second is T richardson for England achieved it in 7 tests in 1893

Third on the list is Philander who achieved it in 7 tests in 2012.

However, If you take it in balls bowled, he wins as Nr 1.

If you take it in number of days he is second, the winner there is Rodney Hogg from Australia, took him 113 days in 1978

It took philander 135 days. 

But yes it is still an increddible achievement and definitely the fastest in the modern era.

About bowling records though, one of the most incredible one's was Dennis Lelee's record for amount of matches to 250 wickets. Dale Steyn nearly broke that. he missed it with one test. It took Dennis Lillee 48 test to take 250 test wickets and it took Steyn 49 tests. 

Adding Morne Morkel, Kallis as a holding bowler and a leg spinner to that mix, This is probably the best test bowling attack South Africa has ever had. Bowling side. Most probably the best in the world. Some people have comapared it to the Great West Indian attack from the 70's. So from there the little sting in Michael Vaughn's statements. as none of the English bowlers come close to that.

Even if they do have a good bowling side, probably the second best in the world. :)

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 May 2012, 17:15
#12
11 May 2012, 17:15#12

Very impressve stuff.

I do have  a concern as to whether Dale is still firing. I know in nz he hada pretty bad toe. He is devastating when he gets the ball to swing away late at pace. We don't see as much of that these days?

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
11 May 2012, 17:25
#13
11 May 2012, 17:25#13

Actually Dale has been bowling well, sometimes you just need some luck to get  wicket as you don't get them no matter how good you put it on the pitch, It happens. Yes his toe was nigly, but he was goin at express putting it in the right places etc. Sometimes creating wickets for Philander as well. I won't be too bothered about him.

What does bother me about him is the way the captain uses him in the ODI side. Dale is firstly a rythm bowler, the longer he bowls, the better he gets. Secondly he uses the new ball well, and struggles a bit more with the old ball.

So as a tip to AB don't use him at the death and don't bowl him in short spells. If he can get that balance right with Dale, then Dale will either create alot of wickets for his bowling partner or take them.

His test bowling has been top notch even though it is only the odd wicket here and there, he is still the top test bowler in the world i should thing with the amount of sustained pressure and opportunities he creates for those around him as well.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 May 2012, 17:43
#14
11 May 2012, 17:43#14

One thing about dale that is unusual is hat he seems to bowl better as the day goes on  - the rythm you speak of but also the inherent stamina.

I think in a test Morkel MUST have the new ball to assist with that extra bounce he gets. Dale bowls a well with the ball old. Maybe Philander and Morket to start?

 

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
11 May 2012, 17:50
#15
11 May 2012, 17:50#15

I don't agree, i feel Dale bowls better with the new ball than the old one.

I'll open with Dale and Vern.  Use Dale in long spells, and Vern and Morkel in shorter spells. Then use Kallis as a holding bowler to let Dale rest. Then as soon as the pitch starts to break up use Tahir and Duminy in combination with Morkel and Vern. I won't use the 2 spinners at the same time as i like tha variety that the combo of a pace and spin bring on a pitch that breaks up.

Dale is an intricate part of this and in the opening spells of the day i will use him, but not with Morkel, As Dale and Vern do brilliantly as a partnership they just make a good team. then  you have the bounce and pace of morkel to play around. But that is my choice there are numerious other combo's to use none of them really wrong that is the beauty of having such an attack.

Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
12 May 2012, 01:53
#16
12 May 2012, 01:53#16

Let me join the mix here...

 

Im a big fan of "horses for courses".

 

If the wicket has a bit of extra bounce, throw Dale and Morne the new ball with Philly as 1st change.

If its a bit of a seamer or a tad flat.... send it Dale and Philanders way with Morne coming on at 1st change.

Either way, we are blessed!

 

I hope Tahir starts firing a bit more. He needs to back up the hype that surrounded him a year ago.

 

Its also good to see "Waleed" Parnell getting some of his good form back in India. If he gets back to his old self, I'd love to see a 4 pronged pace attack in some tests.

Each one of Dale, Morne, Phil and Parnell bring something different to the fray.

 

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 May 2012, 10:56
#17
14 May 2012, 10:56#17

Sound thinking Flash that is the way to go.

On eforgets that Wayne Parnell is still a youngster. Just get him to bring the ball back to the right handera bi tbetter nad he is in business for sure.

Tahir seems to lck the accuracy needed at test level. Too many realese ball. But he can take wickets and the tail do not like facing him. That leaves u swith the issue of having a bolwer to dry up the runs. Kallis is helping in that respect.

No the biggest concern is that Kallis will no be there for much longer - he is simply irreplaceable.

EK
EkPro1,464 posts
14 May 2012, 11:40
#18
14 May 2012, 11:40#18

Yeah Kallis is irreplaceable, and if you want to replace him you ahve to replace him with 2 players.

Flash you have a valid argument there, as i said alot of things we can do with this attack.

— END OF THREAD —

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