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FORUM / RUGBY /  Erasmus Head vs Hansen Head

Erasmus Head vs Hansen Head

Started by Mozart31 REPLIES750 VIEWS· 18 Mar 2019, 19:57
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2019, 19:57
#1
18 Mar 2019, 19:57#1
Springboks Rassie’s brain worthy match for Hansen: author 2019-03-18 19:04 Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer Cape Town - It is a titanic early clash at the 2019 Rugby World Cup ... and the Springboks will have sufficient intellectual clout from head coach Rassie Erasmus to give the All Blacks, masterminded by revered counterpart Steve Hansen, a serious run for their money. That is the belief of Peter Bills, veteran international rugby scribe and recent author of All Black-geared book The Jersey: The Secrets Behind The World’s Most Successful Team. The Boks open their account at the Japanese-hosted event with a Pool B cracker against the defending champions at Yokohama on September 21. Bills was given generous access to the views of Hansen, who steps down after RWC following some seven years as All Black coach, during his research for the book. Speaking during a visit to the Cape last week, the writer said Hansen headed up a formidable brains trust, although the possibility of assistant Ian Foster fairly seamlessly assuming the reins post-World Cup might depend on New Zealand winning it for an extraordinary third time in a row. In the meantime, however, 59-year-old Hansen might have his hands full repelling the challenge this year of rivals like Erasmus, who is in just his second season as Bok coach and significantly younger at 46. “What you get with Rassie is very deep pragmatism ... you get a pride, a real demand for pride, and if you don’t show it, you won’t be in that team for too long. That’s a big (similarity) with Steve Hansen. “I think he’s (Erasmus) a guy who wants 100 percent, wants you to wear your heart on your sleeve, give everything. But all within the confines of organisation in the modern game, of course: you don’t get far on adrenaline alone and Erasmus knows that. “You won’t win a World Cup that way. You need that pragmatic, essential quality that he has prepared assiduously in every sense. He makes sure exactly what is expected of his players. “I don’t think he stands on rooftops and shouts to the media about what he wants, but he is a very shrewd coach; right choice at right time.” What did Bills learn of NZ counterpart Hansen’s character in his exclusive access to him? “He totally masks his feelings, publicly. He’s not dispassionate, though … be sure not to confuse that. A lot calmer and less animated than someone like (a Bok predecessor) Heyneke Meyer, although everyone is different and those two are still friends … talk quite often, I believe. “Hansen is a guy who I think goes straight to the point, like an arrow to the heart. If you’re failing to do something he will say ‘I want this, I don’t want that: what don’t you understand about it?’ “He is so direct; doesn’t waste energy or emotion. When you watch the All Blacks train under him it is all so business-like.” Asked whether Hansen commanded the type of aura which soccer’s Sir Alex Ferguson once enjoyed as Manchester United boss, Bills said: “I think probably that’s a very good analogy ... he is the sort not to suffer fools. “Steve reveals a certain amount but he won’t reveal everything ... to you, me or anybody else. But he did open up a bit about his family and so on. A very interesting figure. “I raise the suggestion in the book about whether he might be employed further, once he goes as All Black coach, in some sort of overlord capacity. “Whether he would want such a hands-on role down the line, I am not sure. But there must be a role somewhere for all that knowledge. I’d be surprised if he said a blanket ‘that’s it, no more rugby’. He might want a year or so’s break, but it’s in his blood.” Just as Hansen ascended to the All Black coaching throne after earning his stripes on the support-staff ladder, would Foster represent a natural progression to the role for the post-2019 national side? Bills says: “I’m pretty sure that’s what the New Zealand Rugby Union would like ... there’s a ‘but’, though. “I think that in the last 12 months the gap has narrowed between New Zealand and the rest. On a given day, several countries could knock them over in a World Cup. “South Africa could, if they get the bit between the teeth, also England, Wales, maybe Ireland, although I think they have dipped a bit this season."
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:02
#2
18 Mar 2019, 20:02#2
This is classical Houwing....pure pablum. We have a 50/50 coach being talked up....why? He should be talking about the fragility of our wings, bankruptcy of our centres, confusion about number 5 lock and imbalance in our loosies. The lack of any clear intent in the game plan.....and the horrible misuse of the bench, which lost the Loftus test against the AB. We are no more resolved than this time last year and Houwing instead of ringing the alarm bells 6 months from the WC is trying to weave a new fantasy. This is what's wrong with our rugby media.
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:14
#3
18 Mar 2019, 20:14#3

Agreed, there are some big problems to solve. What I found alarming was how quickly the Boks began to look stale. The magic worse off by the start of the EOYT. Perhaps that All Black loss hit the team a bit more than most think. The Boks have always been a particularly emotional side. 

What's also alarming is that the Stormers play very similarly to the Boks. That's good for nearly bottom at every attacking stat at super rugby level; what of test rugby? Seeing the 6 Nations sides makes me wonder, are we not in reality the 10th best team in the world? 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:29
#4
18 Mar 2019, 20:29#4
I think we are saved by a few world class players....Willie, Pollard, Faf, Marx, Etzebeth and Vermeulen. Lose those guys and we plunge deep into the second five.
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:36
#5
18 Mar 2019, 20:36#5

Willie and Faf created most of our tries. Faf isn't the most technically sound player, but he has all the intangibles, is a real competitor. Like Januarie 2.0. Interesting that Eben becomes so underappreciated. Pollard is really honing his craft nicely. 

I wonder what Rassie's plan will be this year. There was a shift in where we were moving the ball in the last few games, could that signify a change in philsophy/loss in confidence with certain individuals? Certainly, I don't think the team is built to play this pragmatic game at the highest level. To kick when we have no aerially superior players backfired. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:46
#6
18 Mar 2019, 20:46#6

Nice debate about thinking the same  But then I was delighted to hear at least about the 50:50 coach.  After having a 30:70 coach for four years followed by a 20:70 coach for 2 years  a 50:50 coach is a vast improvement.  

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
18 Mar 2019, 20:55
#7
18 Mar 2019, 20:55#7

Heyneke won 67%, Coetzee 44%. Easy numbers, Mike, easy numbers.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,252 posts
18 Mar 2019, 21:06
#8
18 Mar 2019, 21:06#8
Rassie was only around the 50 mark, but anyone can see that the team was competitive in most matches. The strongest team was not always chosen when many of our players were not available due to club commitments. 
Rassie will be exercising the IRB regulation to make players available for all test matches next year. 
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
18 Mar 2019, 21:17
#9
18 Mar 2019, 21:17#9

The attacking game regressed under Rassie. Defence improved. This is a very rigid and predictable team with a lot of issues. Where are the fresh ideas? He didn't always reward better performing players either. He was outcoached by Ledesma and Hansen, and shown up on the EOYT. He botched his greatest moment of the year. I just don't see anything to suggest the improvements haven't been mostly down to an upswing in personnel. That can only take you so far, and that was certainly the case last year. We are lagging a long way behind the rest of the top 10 nations. All that keeps us in tests is a powerful pack. This is going to be a stern test of Rassie's coaching ability. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Mar 2019, 21:19
#10
18 Mar 2019, 21:19#10

I tried to tell Dr Moz what a shrewed coach Rassie is.

Beeno getting it right yet again. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Mar 2019, 21:19
#11
18 Mar 2019, 21:19#11

I tried to tell Dr Moz what a shrewed coach Rassie is.

Beeno getting it right yet again. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2019, 21:39
#12
18 Mar 2019, 21:39#12
Pakie
Fact is all indications are that I am correct - The 30% is arrived it for lack of forward thinking applicable as is evidence about using reputation is the only criterium and forgetting totally about performance as a norm for selection.  
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
18 Mar 2019, 22:16
#13
18 Mar 2019, 22:16#13

Meyer's Boks are ahead of Rassie's Boks. Not that it was fan favourites who failed. He went to youth, expanded the player base too. How many times must I tell you these things?

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Mar 2019, 22:56
#14
18 Mar 2019, 22:56#14

Funny = funny BS again - what else is new?

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 00:13
#15
19 Mar 2019, 00:13#15
HM 67%.....Erasmus Head 50%....as for 'we can see we are more competitive', that's pure loser think.
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Mar 2019, 00:21
#16
19 Mar 2019, 00:21#16

Josè Erasmus, to be precise. He likes to park that tractor. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 01:33
#17
19 Mar 2019, 01:33#17
He likes to think great thoughts....we should have left him in that mode. A staff man to the tips of his toes.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2019, 04:11
#18
19 Mar 2019, 04:11#18

Mozart

Lets be quite frank - Meyer was a  50:50 coach until his last year as a coach and the bottom dropped out of his coaching and he became a 10:90 coach.   So voila we have him at 30:70 coach -  not a single test won in the RC and voila the Japan disaster.    .   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 05:52
#19
19 Mar 2019, 05:52#19
If that's Frank , let's stick with Henry.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2019, 05:55
#20
19 Mar 2019, 05:55#20

Thanks Mozart

A nice way to admit that I was right as per normal. LMAO

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Mar 2019, 09:10
#21
19 Mar 2019, 09:10#21

2012

12 Tests: 7-2-3 (58.3%)

Overall: 58.3%

IRB Rank: #2

2013

12 Tests: 10-0-2 (83.0 %)

Overall: 71.0%

IRB Rank: #2


2014

13 Tests: 9-0-4 (69.2%)

Overall: 70.3%

IRB Rank: #2


2015

11 Tests: 6-0-5 (55.0%)

Overall: 67.0% 

IRB Rank: #3


PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
19 Mar 2019, 09:26
#22
19 Mar 2019, 09:26#22
Fact is all indications are that I am correct - The 30% is arrived it for lack of forward thinking applicable as is evidence about using reputation is the only criterium and forgetting totally about performance as a norm for selection.
You're correct in the land of talking clouds and walking mushrooms in own head, yes. In the real world, Meyer will always be a 67/33 Bok coach.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2019, 10:55
#23
19 Mar 2019, 10:55#23

Ag Foeitog

Reality has not hit home yet.   Meyer was a real dinosaur in rugby thinking.   So excuses must be found for a disastrous history.  

The fact is that in the WC the Springboks played three poor teams (of which they lost one) and a rather medium strength Scotland.   That always distort so called averages dimwit.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Mar 2019, 11:02
#24
19 Mar 2019, 11:02#24

Meyer's brand was very similar to New Zealand. A fluid, quick developing attack. What we have now is an over-concentration of ball at 12 and 15 and lowest wing participation of all the teams I have evaluated last year - which includes England, Ireland, Wales, Australia, Argentina and New Zealand. Kicking, and a lack of space for the outside backs. Meyer better utilised Willie to free our runners. Rassie has him feeding cul-de-sacs too deep, often leaving us at the mercy of the edge defender who catches us deep, time and time again. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 16:13
#25
19 Mar 2019, 16:13#25
Only in South Africa can a 50% win rate be better than 67%.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2019, 16:43
#26
19 Mar 2019, 16:43#26

No Mozart - it depends on the level of the opponents that should be taken into account and also the competitiveness of the opposition. 

Also it must be borne in mind that Erasmus had to take action to rectify the bugger-ups of his two predecessors and he in at least three tests experimented to get a sound squad of players  for taking  the game forward 

Erasmus has not equaled Meyer with a horrendous record in Argentina away games   for years and losing the first home game against Argentina and the cherry on top was the Japan disaster in 2015, 

The other issue where Meyer was doing and that is selecting tams on performance and try to build a team structure for the future that Meyer never did - with Meyer all that counted was reputation.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 20:12
#27
19 Mar 2019, 20:12#27
Actually rugby has moved on from the sterile phase favoured by Erasmus, to the use of tactical kicking....eg the first Welsh try. HM was much closer tothat model. Erasmus improved the defence over Coetzee ....getting it back to HM levels....that's it technically. We still have Stephanie and Allende bashing it up as the preferred means of attack. What Rassie has been gifted is a sense of legitimacy....so the players don't go awol as they did under Coetzee. But much more 50/50 rugby and that too will pass.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Mar 2019, 20:33
#28
19 Mar 2019, 20:33#28

So Meyer used a model entailing kicking - but his players did not know the first thing about tactical kicking - the kicking during Meyer's coaching made more aimless kicking than anyone would ever imagine.   Fact is the kicking game was entirely BS - nothing tactical and totally predictable.

And about defense - compare the 2018 number of tries scored  and the comparable number of tries scored in 2012.   Do the same calculation and both attacking play and the defense under Meyer was shown up as deficient.

The players also went AWOL under Meyer, A typical example was De Jongh in  two tests 2012. There were other areas of the game  where the game under Meyer were seriously deficient - the prominent one was ball protection and recovery at breakdowns.   

There was no implementable game plan by Meyer and that is a fact as well.   Silly Billy tries to create one - but what he said was total delusion.

You can duck and dive as much as you like - Meyer was not a quality coach  at all.   The main reason you admired him so much was his selection of players on a reputation basis with total disregard for performance.    By the end of 2014 the system broke down comprehensively. and the WC squad ended up with a number of players not really useable.   That stopped any player development for the future in its tracks. 

                

   

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
19 Mar 2019, 20:57
#29
19 Mar 2019, 20:57#29

There isn't a solitary detail you have gotten right about any coach. You can't describe any aspect of their game plans nor can you identify anything on the field. For months and months I have seen you taken apart by several members for sloppy, lazy and deceitful twaddle. It's becoming a real bore hearing you repeat the same inane nonsense almost word for word eveh single day. When we don't talk about these old players or coaches you find some way of working the thread in that direction.

Whether it's squad development, game plan development you have always been wrong about Meyer. The funniest thing if all is that Rassie is doing every single thing you ever berated Meyer for supposedly doing. In your mind he is the anti-Meyer, but in reality Meyer is the ideal you want and Rassie is the antiquated outdated coach you loathe. 

Rassie's Boks: Aimless kicking, deep lying and slow developing attacks overly worked through three players who only offer a laboured crashball. Wings who are starved of possession, who need to kick to get behind the defence. The very opposite of the wide and speedy counter attacking game of Meyer which followed the New Zealand blueprint. 

What has Rassie done to develop the team? Well, according to you all but one new cap is a flop. In your mind Mapimpi, Andre, Am, Snyman et al were "worthless". 

What problems did Rassie inherit from Meyer? Nothing. He did inherit a bunch of core players for his team. 

I will never fully understand why you hate Meyer. You need counseling, because this is becoming more and more irrational as time goes by. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Mar 2019, 21:46
#30
19 Mar 2019, 21:46#30
Well if you can show me where I can find the 2019 tries Mike, I will compare them to 2012.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Mar 2019, 03:30
#31
20 Mar 2019, 03:30#31

Sorry Mozart 

I change the date to 2018.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Mar 2019, 03:55
#32
20 Mar 2019, 03:55#32

Silly Billy

Whenever you claim I have got things wrong, I know I have got it right.   You are totally clueless about game plans.   Problem is that whatever you describe is dreamed up drivel without any regard to fact.   If there was one member caught out regularly it was you.  No BS it is Mozart whomade a nonsense claim of a 50:50 coach and I pointed out that Erasmus is an improvement on the rubbish that preceded him  and you came up inventing  things which is non-existent.

You also came up with twaddle and utter BS claiming that you wonder why the Springboks should  not be at 10 in the World ranking - what total idiocy.   At the same time you preach the distorted  idea how poor SH rugby is compared to the NH teams.   But then you claimed the same when in 2015 none of the NH teams made the semi-finals of the WC.   

Whenever I think about Meyer and what he did I am getting more certain that he was competing with Coetzee as the most clueless coach the Springboks had over the past 29 years,  Erasmus knows his rugby  - from that perspective there is no comparison wit Meyer.  

For every aimless kick the Springboks made in 2018 - Meyers Springboks made 20.   However, it cmae out that you do not know when a kick is strategic and wen it is aimnless.   Same as you do not know what is a driving maul and how it is formed. 

I do not invent things when it comes to player selection = the players you think should eb in the team have all serious limitations which you imagine is not there,   It have been rather funny how you imagine things about player which is absent and how your pet hate players are always twice the players the ones you think should be in the team.

Problem is since you do not know rugby - you dream up non-existent BS  to try and sate it ias factual.   There is not a single player which real experts regard as top class and you claim t know better.   Problem is in reality you know near to zero about the game/        


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