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FORUM / RUGBY /  Erasmus talks about rugby Development

Erasmus talks about rugby Development

Started by clevermike10 REPLIES803 VIEWS· 29 Jan 2020, 15:10
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jan 2020, 15:10
#1
29 Jan 2020, 15:10#1

The following from Rugby365:-


The South African Rugby Union’s Director of Rugby Rassie Erasmus has always been a ‘glass half full’ type of guy.


That is why he feels the national teams of England and France are being negatively impacted by the huge influx of foreign players in the Premiership and Top 14.


In contrast, South Africa now has the best of both worlds – a pipeline to produce quality replacements for the world-class Springboks abroad, while those players remain available.


Erasmus believes that the Six Nations teams – like England and France – suffer the consequences of so many foreigners taking up spaces of domestic players in their top-tier competitions.


Players like Francois de Klerk, Cobus Reinach, Willie Le Roux, Handre Pollard and Eben Etzebeth – to name but a few – are taking up key positions at Premiership and Top 14 clubs.


Erasmus had seven Euro-based players in his matchday squad that beat Eddie Jones’ England 32-12 in the World Cup Final in November.


He suggested England and France should look at giving more opportunities to local players in the Premiership and Top 14.


“If you compare our system with the English system, the New Zealand system and the difference in the French system – you see what [England coach] Eddie Jones is currently confronted with,” the SA Rugby boss said.


“They [England] have a wonderful system where the elite player pathway is fantastic.


“England is very competitive at the junior World Cup, but when they get to the Premiership, clubs are owned by wealthy businessmen and 70 percent of the players are foreigners.


“We [South Africa] have 400-odd players playing abroad.


“For example, of the 12 premiership clubs, seven scrumhalves are not even English qualified.


“There are also flyhalves that aren’t English qualified.


“You’ve got the French who are currently doing very well at junior level, but the French top league [Top 14] is filled with South Africans and New Zealanders.


“So for the French national team to do really well it is extremely tough,” Erasmus added.


He does not share the view that the large number of South African players abroad is a massive negative.   “In contrast, we only have three or four foreign players playing in our domestic competitions.”


He pointed out that the domestic conveyor belt keeps pushing through talented young players who get opportunities in Super Rugby and Currie Cup competitions.


“You can see it as a negative, but I see it as a positive,” he said of the massive number of SA players plying their trade abroad.

He pointed to players like Aphelele Fassi, Curwin Bosch, Manie Libbok and Sanele Nohamba as examples of success stories on the domestic scene.


“We have a wonderful pipeline and the youngsters are coming through,” Erasmus said.


“The players that are playing there [Premiership and Top 14] are taking up space from players that could play for their national team.”


That is also the reason why Erasmus created a special and unique post for Irishman Felix Jones, who has a new role as a European-based coaching consultant.


“Currently there are more than 400 South Africans playing overseas,” Erasmus said.


“Realistically there are only about 10 or 20 performing at Test-match level.


“He [Jones] will be based in Dublin and part of his job description is to service those [Euro-based] players for us.  So when those [Euro-based] players come into camp, they will be fully on board on what our plan is, what their conditioning is.”


I have always said that the Test teams of especially England and France are weakened by the large number of SH players playing in  their Premiership and Top 14 competition and it stifles their juniors to come through clubs to test level.


An interesting comment is about the 10 to 20 SA players that are already test level players or potential test level players playing for foreign clubs, coupled  to the rolls Jones plays in the situation relaying to SA players.         

 




sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,240 posts
29 Jan 2020, 17:46
#2
29 Jan 2020, 17:46#2
I disagree with this. 
Imagine South Africa had 15 teams in the Currie Cup. There is no way there is enough depth to have 15 teams that are competitive. The Currie Cup semis are usually the same 4 teams. And it is often the team with the least Springboks that wins it. It is barely even a contest.  
However, if only 40-50% of the players were from South Africa and the rest were top quality players from all over the world it would raise the standard of Currie Cup rugby. Young SA players could get exposed to backline play from some of the best All Black players (e.g. Dan Carter, Umaga etc- who all played in France), or the likes of Matt Giteau, Jonny Wilkinson etc who all played in France. Less crash ball and more thinking rugby. 
The Currie Cup could then potentially become the best domestic competition in world rugby. This product could be sold around the world as a revenue generator.  By including international players it means a higher amount of competitive teams.
There would still be places for South Africa's top 6-7 players in each position, while also bringing in top quality players in each position from all round the world. There is only so much depth a country will have in each position at any given time. Why have 15 Scrumhalfs from SA in the Currie Cup, when someone of them is barely even of a professional standard? Rather have 6-7, with the rest top quality test players from other countries.
If there were only 4 teams (like in SuperRugby) - and 50% were foreigners it would be a different story. The foreigners would be taken spots from the third best and fourth-best players from South Africa. Who cares about the 15th best player in each position that will never be a Bok contender.
The French and English national tournaments are good as a product as they contain lots of competitive teams. This is a product sold to people all around the world -much better than watching say Griquas vs the Pumas, or worse. 
A national league with 10-15 teams gives opportunities for the best local players to be exposed to a very competitive tournament with quality from all around the world.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jan 2020, 18:30
#3
29 Jan 2020, 18:30#3

Then why don't they win the WC?  

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,240 posts
29 Jan 2020, 18:35
#4
29 Jan 2020, 18:35#4

 England was in the final. 

On the day, the Boks were better. Rotation of the Rassie pack was seen by many as a reason the Boks were dominating the collisions

Ireland, Wales and England have been in the top IRB 5 ranked teams for most of the last 4 years. The first time this has happened. 

Why is Superrugby now garbage and more fans around the world watching European rugby.

European football consists of the best players from around the world, and it is sold as a product to people all round the world 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jan 2020, 19:57
#5
29 Jan 2020, 19:57#5

SB

I was merely sarcastic, but there is a point made and that is that too few of the excellent Under 20 players England and France produce  year after tear get into the test team because they cannot get into Club teams.   Fact is the quality of rugby played in the Southern Hemisphere in the Super Rugby competition is higher than what is played in England and France, even by the top teams in those competitions  -  despite the large influx of SH players,   

The issue has very little to do with club rugby - but the fact that there are obstacles in the way of younger players coming through from ground level to play the game on test  level.  A further question is - how many players in the English WC squad last year was not even borne in England, 

All in all the system i s not healthy and does not contribute  to rugby development oin a wirkd wide basis.          

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
29 Jan 2020, 19:57
#6
29 Jan 2020, 19:57#6

Duplication


sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,240 posts
29 Jan 2020, 21:33
#7
29 Jan 2020, 21:33#7
If England and France took all of their foreign players out their national tournaments, they would only be able to field about 4 teams with any chance of winning the annual tournament. 
No country could field 15 teams of quality just with their local players. That would leave them with 2 options. 
1. Reduce the number of teams playing in A-Division. (Less opportunity for local players)2. Keep 15 teams, but the best teams will always win- and field B-team players most of the time. Except for finals or an important game when they can unwrap top-level players who will destroy the b-division pretenders. This is why there is a B-Division. The top performers at this level will get poached by the richer clubs. 
England would not be able to have 15 teams in their domestic tournament of a competitive standard - so there would be fewer opportunities for players anyway in the first division rugby. If they did have 15 teams, most would be of a B-division standard. So when the crap teams play the good teams, the best teams would just rest their top players. This would turn the tournament into a B-division. 
This is what happens in Pro14, the likes of Leinster of Ireland field their b-team players in Pro14 allot of the time)- and keep them in cotton wool for the important Pro14 matches, the European tournament- and even test rugby. 
The Currie Cup has experimented with strength vs strength or turning itself into a B-division tournament. Neither option is great. There is constant change as the format shows both options are not working. 
If England has 12-15 teams, and around 50% of them are reserved for English eligible players, this is ample opportunity for local players. If a player is not in the top 6-7 in their position - they are a b-division player. Basically a semi-professional player that will get exposed at the higher levels of the game in most cases. They will have fatal flaws that are more noticeable in higher levels of the game. 
And having a national tournament with test experienced players from all-round the world is a better environment to learn, than a local 15 pub-team of local players. 
SuperRugby tried to expand into more teams, but the reality is that some teams are not up to standard. (The Kings had one good season, otherwise were pathetic). SA does not have the backline depth. 
If SuperRugby had expanded and taken the best Northern Hemisphere players - it could have had more teams while retaining the high standard- and keeping the same amount of A-division opportunity for local players. (more teams, 50% of them for local players).B-team players could be tested when injuries happen, but most will be exposed as pretenders. 

SuperRugby is no longer Super, as it has b-division players to cover injuries and even some first-choice players are piss poor. Journeymen such as Dan Kriel who could be given a million opportunities to prove they are not A-team standard. 
It is debatable if Dan Kriel is even a professional rugby player, other than he gets paid money to be useless. Some of the SA backline players can barely catch or pass. A player like Leon Zas is hardly an A-division type of player.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,240 posts
29 Jan 2020, 22:07
#8
29 Jan 2020, 22:07#8
If under-20 players cant make the step up, it is because they are crap and belong in the B-division of open rugby. The answer is not to turn the A-division into the B-division to give amateurs opportunity. 
An age group is limited to players in about 1-2 years age difference. Lots of Junior Boks disappear too, many cant even make a starting SuperXV team. 
The open division fields players aged from 18-38 (20 years) - which is a much larger player pool and therefore more competitive. 
Weaknesses get exposed quickly, and players that look good in lower levels of the game are suddenly piss poor due to less time, space and more physicality. Stars in the making hit the men's division and suddenly they don't even have a pot to piss in. 
A player like Timo Swiel was great in age group, but he did not make the step up to open division. Even in England, I am not sure he is even a first choice starting player for an average UK team - is it Harlequins? 
Everyone raved about his skills in the junior level - but with less time and space & more physicality  - he was average Joe. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Jan 2020, 11:14
#9
30 Jan 2020, 11:14#9

So the great rugby played by English clubs is mostly BS - I see their games frequently and I look out for anything of substance and rarely sees anything.   That is why the English team was shut out of anything in the WC final.  All that resulted from that was a further raid on SA players - how the hell does that help test teams in England and France.  Keep it up you yet have to prove that you know more about rugby than Erasmus.     

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
30 Jan 2020, 13:55
#10
30 Jan 2020, 13:55#10

You can debate the influence on the national team. What is definite is our Super Rugby sides have been decimated. You can never build a side. Each season there are serious loses. 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,240 posts
30 Jan 2020, 14:19
#11
30 Jan 2020, 14:19#11
CleverWanker, if/when the European teams start playing in summer instead of winter - these teams will play a better brand of rugby. It is a mudbath in winter. 
You are thinking like an ANC bureaucrat that foreigners are stealing jobs. You can't understand that with more quality players from around the world, this means more teams of quality can be created while still giving the same amount of oppertunity to local players.

I disagree with Rassie on this one point. However, it may also be a context thing, rather than disagree. I am sure that he would agree that having a national tournament with 10 teams that are competitive and contain international from around the world would be better than the Currie Cup which is a joke in bad taste. 
The Cheetas did ok in SuperRugby, but they have only had one good season in Pro14. They are the 5th best team in SA. The Cheetas b-team can even challenge for Currie Cup success. 



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