Evaluation of Performance of Centers

There has been constant arguments about how well SA centers performed in the tests in 2012.   Saffex for instance said that -

*   centers like Steyn and Taute was very good; and

*  De Villiers failed and was the reason for non-performance by the backline.

Others did not agree with the assessments made and that brought on the request for inputs so as to allow for the development of a model that could be used objectively to determine performance by centers.   The argument then was what are the functions of centers and what are they expected to do.   Here again there were major differences of opinion between contributors who expected certain requirements from centers and also Saffex who claimed that present defensive strategies are so tight that what was expected from centers in the past is not applicable anymore - without being specific about what really is expected other than to refer to movement in the traffic - ie moves normally leading to crashballing.

The mattter was subsequently taken further and membes were requested to make specific inputs so as to faacilitate the development of an assessment model and some useful comments has been received - however, - despite specific requests to him  Saffex did not submit any comments whatsoever.  

The following model has now been compiled and 7 categories have been determined as Key requirements for attacking center play:-

A    Running different lines to draw defenders and create space - not just straight at defenders

B    Passing ability (long and short passes, skip passes, hanging passes, timed passes - all aimed at creating gaps in the defence of opposition)

C    Off- loading ability in tackle situations

D    Ability to break the first line of defence when it is the best option 

E    Try assists or tries scored themselves - supporting play leading to tries

F    Kicks chips, grubbers to vary play 

G   Running in the traffic - crashballing - meters gained, quick ball retention and quick recycles

Category G represents the option used most frequently by SA centers and bearing that in mind the following point allocation:-

Categories A through to F    -      2 points per category

Category G                             -      8 points

The  point allocation is based on the actual on-field performances by the players concerned as per each category as listed.    Points are allocated strictly in accordance with what options players actually followed and how successful play turned out to be.   An assessment per category from A to F can be made as follows:-

 *   A player has not undertaken an activity or failed in tryingto do so    -      0 points

*   It has happened but only on rare occassions                                     -      1 Point

*   Activity done reasonably often with success                                      -      2 Points

Based on the actual performances of the indicated centers on the field of play in the 2012 tests - the results were as follows:-

Category         De Villiers    Steyn       Taute          De Jongh

    A                          1               0              0                    0

    B                          1               1              0                    0

    C                          0               0              0                    0

    D                          1               1              1                    1

    E                          2               0              0                    0

    F                          2               1              0                    0

   G                          6               6               6                    4

Based on the above the total points per player out of 20 are as follows:-

De Villiers               14 points

Steyn                        9 points

Taute                        7 points

De Jongh                  5 points

Based on the above model - only De Villiers made the grade - but not really on a convincing basis.   Steyn failed and will have to upgrade his game subbstantially to remain in contention for selection.   Taute failed - but wants to play at full back in future.

I also tried to do an evaluation of the relevant player performances in Super 15 - but for comparison purposes added Jordaan to the mix.   The actual outcome was as follows:-

Jordaan                    16 points

De Villiers                 14 points

Steyn                        10 points

Taute                        10 points

De Jongh                   7 points

In the case of Steyn and Tautte they played only 2 and 3 games respectively at center - more game time may have influenced the results significantly.   problem was they were not really stars in the games concerned .

Based on the above model the only two centers who actually meets requirements on Super 15 level is Jordaan and to a lesser extent De Villiers.

Mike this is just bullshit for all it represents is what you think of the centres. It has stuff all to do with reality.

Shock, shock - Frans and Taute find themselves below Jean and Jordaan - its a joke

Saffex

It is tragically not a joke.   It is what the players actually produced in actual performances.   In some cases the centers only crashballed (ie running in traffic) - no off-loads, no passing - just plain nothing.   Steyn scored a charge-down try against the Argentinians - but neither he or Taute had anything ever to do with a try scored by the Springboks from backline play - De Villiers was involved in at least three tries scored by the Springboks.   

Steyn tried one grubber kick in all the games he played it and it hit th legs of an opposing player and caused majot problems for the Boks.   Taute tried no kicking at all.   Two defnesive kicks of Steyn and Taute landed us in serious trouble.   Neither of them successfully drew in any defenders and neither put any players into space in any games they played in.  
 

To be quite frank - Steyn in all the games he played in made one signifcant line break in the Dunedin test - but it led to nothing.

Problem is that Jordaan on Super level complied partially or in full with all the categories listed.   He scored tries himself and made other tries.   He drew in defenders and off-load balls, he ran at angles and created space - especially for the outside players.   He used grubber kicks as well.   He made line breaks and carried balls effectively in traffic - and you can see elements of it all in all the Super 15 ganes he played in.  As a player he is much speedier than Taute and a slippery customer to boot.   In the few super 15 games they played in Taute did more of the categories than Steyn did - but nowhere near as effectively as Jordaan operated in games he played in.

Be assured I watched the tests carefully and tried my utmost to be fair in the assessment.   I also expected that you would reject it - but thought i wanted to be really frank and 100% honest in what I deduced from the actual performances of the players themselves.   Basically you could only use actual performance in the games as a norm - nothing else. 

I obviously was disappointed by what I saw - but our backline play was largely disfunctional in 2012 and i hope it improves in 2013.   I stll think that Steyn can upgrade his performances - but since there is virtually no chance that Taute would get playing time as a center in Suer 15 - I canno foresee much of a change in his case.

To be quite frank I am disappointed in De Villiers as well - but the basis I used did give him more points than I myself thought he deserved or qualified for.   He was disappointing insofar as I am concerned. 

Well I was bored the other day and watched the Boks vs Oz test again and could not believe the crap that was written by people about Taute in his first test for the Boks.

Do me a favour and watch that test again and tell me exactly what you think Taute could have or should have done differently every time he got the ball?

When he got it he challenged the defence everytime with an inside step or swerve, creating second phase ball. He always got the ball in traffic, his defence was damn good and some twit on here, I think it was Boklogic, banged on about him not assisting with tries - well hello, nor did Jean for instance as they were not scored from structured play.

Just tell me exactly what Taute or any other centre in the world would have done differently with the ball he received in that test. Watching that test again reaffirmed my call for Taute as our Bok 13

Saffex

Before I did the assessment I spent hours watching the tests to see for myself what the centers produced.   One of the tests was the OZ test.   Taute did very well in traffic and I gave him 6 out of 8 for that component.  However, he never scored significantly in any other category since he did not do what was required in most other categories as listed above.   He was consistent in doing what he did carrying balls in traffic in all the tests he played in - his real strong point being carrying of the ball in traffic leading to crashball situations..  For the rest he did not produce any of the plays that could be leading to effective attacking backline play.

He could have tried any or at least some of the issues raised as requirments.   He could have tried passing of the ball - he could have tried off-loads - he could have tried to run at an angle to draw defenders - especially since it was one open game with ample backline moves that created opportunities for players.   He was parochial and one-dimensional in his approach and all times he handled the ball it had one end result - a maul situation.

Let me assure you - yu do not wish to recognize it - but Taute's main problem was the lack of game time as a center since 2009.    If he played there more often than he did - it may have been a different story snd he could have been really more effective.   

No Mike he did not have the opportunity to do all those other things you mention for in reality.playing for the Bok side these days, the ball very seldom gets to a 13 down the line.

When it did Taute either attacked the defender with and inside step and set up second phase ball with the support players or he passed it out wide. There is nothing more he could have done with the ball. You cannot offload when you dont have a support runner running off you. So when he attacked and made the initial step he gained forward momentum and was taken down and in the process placed the ball to set up 2nd phase. Had he tried to offload in that situation, he would have lost possession as he had no-one to offload to.

You cant run an angle in traffic, that is only possible in space, Taute was never in space expect on one occassion when he past the ball, which is good for it would be wrong for him to try something everytime he got the ball. He had already attacked the defenders on a few occassions and then correctly chose to distribute when he did receive the ball in the space he was given.

There were not backline moves that created tries, Kirchner, Louw and Habana's tries had nothing to do with structured backline play. When Goosen nearly scored after his break, had he passed inside he would have set Taute up for an easy try for Taute was there in support.

Your summation of Taute's performance is completely wrong and therefore raises serious questions about your ability to analyse a game. I am not being nasty here, I am being serious - you are asking a player to offload when there are no supporters to offload to or wanting a centre to run an angle in traffic or expecting him to try something every time he gets the ball in hand.

Sorry Mike, but I am not convinced you are up to the task of analysing centre play. Taute did everything expected of him given the limited opportunities he was given and he did it well, one-dimensional he certainly was not.

Saffex

There was one thing that both Taute and Steyn is guilty of - they only play crashball - nothing really effective other than that.   You cannot tell me that he did not get good balls in the OZ test - but the ball all died with him - no other effort made at all by him.

If you want to see what an effective outside center can do - go and watch the Red - Sharks game and see what Jordaan did  prior to him scoring that try.   He ran outside of Pietersen ay spped and made about 15 meters before making an inside pass to Pietersen - who made a further 15 meters.   Pietersen off-loaded the ball to Daniel and the next pass back to Jordaan resulted in a try under the polls.

Taute could at least have tried to do the same type of variation in play - he never did and charged straight at his opponent and was tackled by the first opponent in front of him.   Taute is like Steyn relatively slow off the mark and need space to build up speed,   That space he can get at full back - not at center.   That is why Taute wants to concentrate at playing at full back.   Taute more than anybody else realize that he is not showing up well enough as a cebter to last in that position and he is fully justified in his request to play at 15, 

You know what Mike forget it, I cant be asked debating rugby with you for you are clueless. I have just at length explained to you that Taute did not just crash it up and your conclusion is that he did, fuck me!!

Hell you even want me to compare a player at S15 level and against the useless Reds at that, against a player playing in a test match - heaven help us

I well and truely give up Mike, your rugby ignorance frustrates me beyond belief and short of being insulting, I think its best I throw in the towel.

All Taute did was the slow inside step......and that was when he managed to catch the ball.

He dropped one ball dingbat

Unlike Jean who dropped one and passed one to nobody

And how does one step inside slowly old wise one?

Look Jean took a high ball on his finger tips against NZ, carried it forward on those finger tips, brought it under control and put Habana away for a superb try. That's handling. So don't compare Jean with young butterfingers.

As for a slow step I can do it best by example. Taute is a slow step, fools nobody. De Jongh is a fast step....left Mvovo for dead.

I dont care what Jean did in another test, he dropped one against Oz and then proceeded to pass the ball to no-one - FACT. I have no issue with Jean he was a class act in his day, but his day is long gone and he should not be playing for the Boks anymore, just like Smit should not be.

As for a slow inside step what bullshit. Taute received the ball from Jean and stepped the first defender just like any other player would in traffic. Difference between Taute and wee de Jongh is that Taute was physical enough to carry forward momentum and set up second phase ball. Chances are wee de Jongh in traffic would have been posted backwards with interest. de Jongh had one mini break against minos Scotland then went hiding against England safe in the knowledge that if he hid, he would not be exposed.

Taute could never score that CC winning try de Jongh did, in a 100 matches.....not explosive and elusive enough. But it's all moot now, he's a fullback. So he will be able to wind up to full pace before meeting the tackler and will probably plow through a few of them.

The only art in de Jonghs try was the angle of his run and his hand off of Daniel. The step was nothing given Mvovo was crossing at pace.

So are you saying Taute will never play 13 again???

Saffex

When you are on the losing end of an argument - you always went into the type of thing you did earlier and start with personal attacks.   Taute was one-dimensional - inside step and carry ball in traffic and crashball - never making it more than 3 meters over the gain line.   Never passing the ball - never off-loading whilst being tackled.

And yes - he will never play at 13 again because of his performances thus far.  If he continues in present vein he will not last as a 13 at all - end of story.

I am surprised as to why De Jongh popped up here.  I did not refer to the try scored by him in the CC final - since what I did was to look at the two tests he played in against Scotland and Englans only.  He really was hopeless and the points indicated as such.

AS TO THE ISSUE OF JORDAAN - YOU REALLY WENT OFF THE RAILS THERE.   YOU APPARENTLY NEVER SAW WHAT I SAID CLEARLY AND THAT WAS THAT i COMPARED PERFORMANCES IN THAT CASE WITH WHAT STEYN AND TAUTE PRODUCED IN THE SUPER 15 GAMES THEY PLAYED IN.  I ADDED THAT IF THEY HAD MORE PLAYING TIME ON THAT LEVEL THEY MAY HAVE DONE BETTER IN THE RATINGS.   Apparently - when anybody compares Taute unfavouably with other players - you go ballistic - so please get back to reasonable discussion - and not make foolish statements that detracted from your argument by saying that I compared test match performances with Super 15 performances.   That would be idiotic and it NEVER happened.

And insofar as Jordaan is concerned - the issue was never to compare him to Taute on test level - but on Super series level and specifically to the three games he played at center in Apriil 2012 for the Lions.   The opposition was on the same level as those facing Jordaan - yet he did not perform as well as Jordaan did on Super 15 level,   And then Jordaan also made a major line break in the Super 15 final when his opposing center was SBW - so is he also a sh!t opponent?

 I really am not expecting a response from you on the latter issue at all - so we better leave it at that.

Mike dont insult me with your take on whether I am losing an argument are not, you would not know for as I have said, you clearly know stuff all, so please dont bore us with yor take on what constitutes a centre for its a load of rubbish.

If you dont like me calling someone stupid etc dont fucking read my posts its that simple and dont ever tell me I am losing an argument when a complete idiot tells me that Taute's performance against Oz was one-dimensional - how bloody ignorant is that.

Saffex

In a season of good-will lets leave out the insults.   I looked at that test to see what Taute did specifically in the Wallaby test- where there was a more than ordinary number of backline moves and Taute got the ball in good attacking situations as well.   

He ran straight at the opposition and was tackled with the ball resulting in maul situations - he even beat one tackler on one occassion and was tackled by a second defender.   Official stats indicated he made minimal progress over the gain line and did not try to off-load the ball ever - even with the full back and wings available.   The fact that the Springboks mostly manage to retain possession - there was only one penalty awarded to the Australians when Taute was hanging onto the ball after being tackled - count in favour of the team as a whole.   

Taute was not involved in any threatening backline move and in any move that led to the scoring of tries.   His defence in the said test was good - the rest of his performance (compared to other players on the field of play that day)  - can at best be described as average (that being a liberal description) and may border on inadequacy.

I think Taute will make a briliant full back - but never really succeed at center.   He is too slow off the mark and too one-dimensional to be a 13.  You will obviously contest the latter description - but I ask you with tears in my eyes - what did he do differently in the tests he played in other than to run in traffic - get tackled and crashballed without any attempted passes or off-loads?   He did it with every ball that came his way - and never tried anything else to try and create doubts in the minds of the opposition.  

Mike I am not interested in debating the art of centre play with you for you know stuff all and it bores me - I read the first few sentences of the above and chucked in the towel.

Only a complete idiot would say that Taute was one dimensional, but as a parting shot, given your rugby wisdom please enlighten us on what Taute should have done differently at the following points of the 1st half of that game:

1. Minute 1.50 - receives the ball in traffic, steps in gaining advantage in contact, setting up 2nd phase ball

2. Minute 8.30 - same as above, which results in penalty to Boks

3. Minute 11 - brave take of a high ball

4. Minute 12.40 - makes a good tackle

5. Around 13 min mark, executes a good switch pass 

6. Minute 15.40 - great tackle on Beales

7. Minute 24.35 - great support of Goosen break, had Goosen passed inside, Taute would have scored easy try as he had run into space

8. Minute 31.43  - receives ball in traffic and steps inside beating defender, setting up 2nd phase ball

9. The only other time Taute received the ball, he passed it out wide

Now in your wisdom, kindly indicate what Taute should have done differently at these points - I cant wait for your informed answers, given your expertise on modern day centre play  

You named nine examples and lets analyze them _

*   Brave take of high ball - fine he is an excellent full back - it just prove my point.

*  Point 8 is meaningless - there was a number of support players and Goosen did not pass the ball - so nothing achieved.  

*   Two good tackles made - I always said his defence was good in the test

*   In fact four crashballs - one from the kick he fielded - nothing exceptional in such cases.

*   Made two passes - but did not make any significant passes or off-loads in tackle situations.

All the examples quoted indicated a very average performance - nothing to declare him as the best center on the field of play.   If Taute did something exceptional like trying to run at an angle or draw a defender and pass the ball to another player - I would say he did well. 

The above description clearly indicates that he had a vey average game and did very little to distinguish himself - in other words he played a very simple game withoiut much success for his team.   Thanks for the summary - it confirmed my opinion that he was average at best.  

Man you are thick, I said go watch those passages of play and tell me exactly what Taute should have done differently esepcially when he stepped and crashed as you put.

Dont just lie about the situation, provide a solution as to what Taute should have done differently - its on Youtube for all to see.

Stop speaking shit, man up and answer the questions

 A basic comparison of stats shows the All Blacks play more of a passing game-of which the centres make a significant contribution to-

These stats support how I interpreted the game when I watched both matches. 

-

Take 2 games played at the end of the year vs Scotland. 

Compare the All Black stats vs the Boks stats against the same opposition(Scotland)

You could say that it was a different game and therefore it is a different context. However NewZealand test and SuperXV teams typically have much higher passing stats, metres run and clean breaks. 

A major reason for this is the offloading ability of the centers, passing skills and ability to create space.

--It would take too long to go through each game this year to make a comparision by watching each game and recording the plays. 

However these stats are like comparing night and day. It is obvious that the AllBlacks are playing a more expansive game using passing skills, rather than over using crashball

1. Scotland vs The AllBlacks

                                                                 Scotland      VS South Africa

 SouthAfrican Centre stats-

Yep Shark the AB's play it as it should be played and therefore create more opportunities than other sides. Plus they have Carter at 10, the best 10 to have played the game - it must be heaven for a centre to play outside him.

 agreed, even when the All Black forwards get beaten, the AllBlacks can still have a decent amount of possesion because they dont kick it away aimlessly. 

 Conservative coaches and Morne Steyn have alot to answer for. Meyer needs to embrace a more attacking plan and move away from the likes of Pienaar at 9 and Morne at 10.

I basically agree with you about the issue of backline play.   It is always easy to blame Morne  - even in games where he did not play in.   The real answer is -

 Its a chicken and egg situation with our backline problems. 

Sharkbok

Mike catch a wake up, if Taute received the ball in traffic, ie players already in his face when he received it, what do you expect him to do huh?

Saffex

Mike are you stupid?

Saffex

Um Mike you cant offload to a player if there is no player in support, hence he set up second phase.

Saffex

Mike you are so ignorant about centre play its laughable and you keep confirming that with the crap you post.

Saffex

Mike your rugby ignorance shines bright, you confirmed that with your non analysis of Taute's performance against Oz - that was a complete joke.

Saffex

Well Taute was certainly better than Jean that test who dropped balls, past to no-one and another certainty is that Taute was better than the Oz centres. Taute was also the best Bok 13 in 2012, for Jean was completely useless at 13 and de Jongh out of his depth.