Finally ... now we know what the Judas Goat had in mind.

FORWARDS - (24)

Loosehead Props - 

Steven Kitshoff, Beast Mtawarira, Oc Nche

Tighthead Props -

Thomas Du Toit, Frans Malherbe, Trevor Nyakane, Wilco Louw

Hookers -

Bismarck Du Plessis, Bongo Mbonambi, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Akker vd Merwe

Locks -

Pieter Steff Du Toit, Jason Jenkins, Franco Mostert, Marvin Orie, RG Snyman

Loosies -

Nizaam Carr, Dan Du Preez, Jean-Luc Du Preez, Seeya Kolisi, Oupa Mohoje, Sick-Humbuzo Notshe, Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen

BACKS - (19)

Scrummies -

Faf de Klerk, Embrose Papier, Iavn van Zyl, Cameron Wright

Flyhalves -

Robert du Preez, Elton Jantjies, Handré Pollard

Centers -

Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, André Esterhuizen, Jesse Kriel

Wings -

Aphiwe Dyantyi, Travis Ismaiel, Makazole Mapimpi, Sibusiso Nkosi

Full Backs -

Warrick Gelant, Willie le Roux,

Utility Back -

CC

As to some of your comments?   Have you seen how Dreyer was destroyed yesterday,   Gave away penalty after penalty against Van  Rensburg and Kitshoff and one of those was when the Stormers had 13 players on the field.    He was made to look what he always was  - never a Springbok.   

Schoeman has been out due to serious ill-discipline and Van Rooyen yesterday suffered the same fate as Dreyer did,

You did not mention the pathetic Orie at lock - as well as the idiotic Jenkins as well. 

I agree with you  about the loosies - and instead of Vermeulen I would have gonme wih Ackerman.   Fact is Mohoje, Carr and Kolisi are not up to standard.

Du Plessis with virtually no rugby this year yesterday was a better flyhalf than Jantjies.   I think Willemse at 19 years of age will be playing in the Under 20WC starting this week.  He is definitely destined for Springbok selection ahead of Jantjies and I think he will come into the mix in the Rugby Championship games.

Fat Fransie is also ready for the scrap heap.   He really is a pathetic selection.  He may get some game time - but will not last. 

I would say that Erasmus actually regards the Wales test as some sort of trial game for some of his poorer picks.   They are sending a squad of 26 players to play in that game.   If they fail - he will have reason to get rid of them.    He already said  there are 7 or 8 key players going to be in that squad.   Of the 43 players announced 26 would go to Washington to play he Welsh.  After that test the squad will be reduced to 28 players,  That means a reduction of 15 players - all will be in the Washington lot.   

We will have to see who would be in the  Washington squad and who would survive in the squad after that test - in other words who would be ultimately be in the key tests after the Washington experiment.

Judge more on the final squad. Take into account quota requirements. Place the blame where it lies - anc.

Anybody thinking Kitshoff doesn't deserve a spot is a nutter of note.

Wow, just wow...What is Fat Frans doing in the squad? Anything is better than that guy, I'd rather have Vorster or Van Rensburg (Lions). Oh well...

Also, why the hell is Jantjes still in there? If that's quotas we need, just pick Stormer's 10 Willemse, MUCH BETTER AND UNPREDICTABLE. (maybe he's still injured)

However, I like seeing Akker in the hooker position, Snyman in the locks, Kwagga in the loosies, klerk making a return and willie le roux in the back...those are probably the only positives :/

P.S. And as soon as I saw MOHOJE AND ORIE in the team, I died a little inside.

No Combrink?

Probably one of our most intelligent players, massive boot and a good reader of the game.

Feel for the guy.

He'll go abroad next year.

We have ...

Stormers = 10

Bulls = 10

Sharks = 15.

Lions = 6

Cheetahs = 2

So ... from the team that leads the SA pool ... only 6 players.

From the team that's lounging around at the bottom of the pool ... 10 players.

From the team that has more front row issues than any of the others ... including a retreaded loosehead prop at 3 ... an elderly hasbeen hooker of yesteryear, now playing abroad and a steroid abusing wannabe, that can't even make his SR run on side, as our Bok front row. That's a total of 5 of the 11 front row forwards.

It's an incredible start for the rugby god Rassie Erasmus.

That really is about as desperate an attempt at discrediting Dreyer that seen from you, Mike ... but then again we've seen the same feeble attempts at discrediting Matfield, Alberts and many other from you over the years.

Kitshoff couldn't even make the starting lineup for the Stormers. Funny ... I too would have chosen Janse van Rensburg over him. 

Jacques van Rooyen is a vastly superior loosehead to your Kitshoff. Kitshoff probably only made it because of Rassies ties to the Stormers. Why else would Bongi, Kolisi, Notshe, Carr, De Allende and Malherbe be there?

Wilco Louw is a class act. Not sure how many more times you'd like us to tell you that? The penny will drop eventually.

Yes ... I agree with you regarding Orie. One of Rassie's poorer selections. Like Jenkins. They're probably just behind the likes of Kolisi, Malherbe and De Allende if you ask me. I'm sure they'll both fit right in.

Schoeman ate another player's ear. So what? He's a much better scrummager than Kitshoff and Beast put together. A little rap on the knuckles and he's good to go.

Fat Fransie needs to be captained and managed properly. He should not be allowed free reign. I would select him over De Allende any day of the week.

CC

Dreyer had all the chances he need last year and failed badly.   He was atrocious  yesterday against Van Rensburg and worse against Kitshoff.   Not another chance for that guy sad to say.

Must say you are indeed prejudiced against some players - if they were playing for the Lions ther would not be a whisper about them from you.

As to De Allende - he thoroughly disgraced Fat Fransie when they were playing opposite e ach other in 2015 and he also disgraced Sonny Bill Williams recently,   So your preference for Fat Fransie is telling again  of prejudice.

I would not have picked Malherbe either.   He was out with a serious neck injury for nine months and had to limited bench appearances recently - for me he should have had more game time to be selected.   

Quacky

I agree with you about the crabbing sideways Jantjies,   However,  Willemse is very young still and he is playing in the Under 20WC  next month.   That I assume was decided upon to give him more international exposure.  

He is bound to be in the RC squad - so the departure of Jantjies is going to be evitable.   

I agree with you about Fat Fransie Steyn -  I would rather have Vorster than that useless fatso.

I think Combrinck will be back too.  Probably in the RC as well    . 

Malherbe has never been up to the task of test match rugby. He too had his chances and sadly disappointed at every encounter. He spent most of his time face down in the dirt giving penalties away. That to me doesn't make for a quality tighthead prop. Once again the poor dear finds himself on crutches. Why don't they just book him into the ICU unit and leave him there? 

Feel free to give him all the time you want, Useless is useless ... no matter how much time you grant them. He is and has always just been a penalty waiting to happen.

I'm not sure which match you were watching yesterday but at no time did Janse van Rensburg get the upper hand against Dreyer. I think you need you eyes checked, Mike. Then again, the way you watch matches, I can't help but wonder if you were tuned into the right channel. There is a difference between basket ball and rugby you know?

Make sure you have the right channel on the telly the next time. If you're not sure, ask the nurse to help you.    

De Allende doesn't have a brain ... he is selfish ... a glory seeker ... doesn't know anything about tackling ... nor anything about getting his outside man through the gap. That to me is reason enough to disqualify him from national duty.

Three ... as in 3 ... years have passed since 2015. You do know that it's 2018 now, right?

De Allende had his best season back then. Sadly that too has passed and all we have left is this braindead freight trainer who has nothing else to offer. No thank you.

Odendaal and Rohan Janse van Rensburg are both his betters. Even Francois Venter would have been a better choice at 12. Hopefully Rassie will at least select Esterhuizen for the test matches. Then again, anyone who selects Thomas Du Toit ahead of Dreyer is undoubtedly as clueless about the sport as you are.

"De Allende doesn't have a brain ... he is selfish ... a glory seeker ... doesn't know anything about tackling ... nor anything about getting his outside man through the gap. That to me is reason enough to disqualify him from national duty."

Says the entire nation and anybody who ever saw de Allende play.

The only head one has to fear for is yours - empty as it is insofar as rugby is concerned.   

Well the hated De Allende played the fool with SBW recently and the problem is that Van Rensburg is really senseless when it comes to rugby.

Unfortunately players have to earn their place in the squad -  all of Fat Fransie, Vorster and Van Rensburg failed in that regard.     I would grant you one thing - Vorster is a better player than Fatso.

Van Rensburg had games where he did not start in at 12 - Vorster has had a better record than him I that regard.    

De Allende is a good player, just low on form at the moment. What worries me is the presence of Am and Steyn, those 2 are clearly panic selections. My starting pair would be Allende+Kriel...by the way, where is Serfontein? He was one of our most consistent players in the past!

Also, Vorster hits some good lines, is big hitter and coordinates well the defense...but when you have someone as mediocre as Jantjes feeding you the ball, even the best centre in the world will look like a buffoon. Elton has to go, the Springboks won't move forward while he's in the starting XV, only sideways (or backwards)!

But in the end, all of the selected centres will have nightmares after the game.

CC 

Dreyer was penalized 6 times yesterday for poor scrumming.   In the case of three of those the Stormers selected to take another scrum with the same result/   

By the way Malherbe was never penalized for poor scrumming as many times as  Freyer ws ;ast year.      

How many is that now?

Is it three years that Elton has been our most successful 10?

One struggles to discount that.

Pity we can't see how Willemse or Pollard would do at the Lions.

Plum ... I know you like Jantjies and if we were honest with ourselves we would have no choice but to agree with you that he has been the stand out 10 these last few years.

It was enough to get him into the Bok 10 jersey ... but you have to ask yourself if that was because he was so brilliant ... or was it rather that there wasn't anyone else?

Has he stepped up and secured his position with the Boks or are we still looking around for other options?

Did he impress at any time during a test match ... or did we see his panic stricken face and how that body language lead to a complete collapse?

From where I'm sitting, he hasn't been able to play with the same confidence at test level. He looked like a fish out of water ... uncomfortable ... afraid ... nervous ... without any self belief.

Feel free to defend him ... in fact I welcome it. You see something in him that I do not. Please tell me why you rate him as our only Bok 10. 

@CC

Pollard has been better than Jantjies as far as overall individual performances go...maybe.

I think one has look at some of the Lions winning margins this year which have been a lot smaller than last year where they regularly put fifty or sixty points past opposition.

Off the top of my head, and I'm literally just talking from memory so could easily be wrong, there have been about four maybe five games where without the tries Jantjies had set up, the Lions would have lost.

We've become all too familiar with his chips, inside balls and quick spreads and possibly don't notice them as much as we would had Pollard, Dups or Willemse done them.

Without his contribution the Lions would be middle of the pack at best. His operating behind a pack that is a shadow of it's 2016 and 2017 self also needs taking into consideration. 

He also has a new 9 and his inside half changes relatively regularly too. 

I'm a fan of Dups, but the Sharks have been doing well up front this year, yet Dups hasn't been able to turn that into points. The same goes for the Bulls to some degree.

Without him, or at least without similar contribution from another 10, the Lions would be mid table at best.

Not saying he is the Lions MVP or anything, since Marx, Mostert and few others lead the pack for that title, but he's invaluable nonetheless.

My point is that the above us hard to ignore. 

Especially in light of the fact that the Sharks, Bulls and Stormers seasons would be looking a lot different if they had a similar contribution from the guys we are calling for to have a Bok spot ahead of Jantjies.

I still stand by the fact that the last two years have seen only a small amount of Bok players looking like they belong there. From memory, only Eben has emerged from Coetzee's time with any semblance of perceived pedigree.

Faf being a perfect example of Toetie's time. Started well against Ireland, who were a better team than we realised at the time, and then just like everybody else got worse and worse as Coetzee's lack of a game plan took hold. 

Until he was eventually dropped and replaced with the pedestrian Cronje that was never gonna win games, had less flair and who only had a slightly better pass than Faf. Cronje himself not having any more success than Faf and failing to make the impact that Faf did despite having more appearances.

Faf who is now in the top 3 in the world as far as 9s go. In my opinion anyway.

For me, Jantjies is the best out of hand kicker and play making 10 we have right now...still.

The combination of Faf and Jantjies might be the deciding factor. 

I understand that the majority of players cut it at SR but stepping up to test level is only for the rare few. 

I reckon one must remember that it's a one way street.

You may cut it at SR and never at test level but you'll never make it at Test level if you couldn't do it at SR.

It's probably also worth taking into account the winning streak over SA opposition that Jantjies has overseen. Does anyone know if it's a record yet? Surely it must be.

That's why I said it would be nice to see Pollard or Willemse at the Lions.

TLDR; Dups ,Willemse and Pollard are looking the part but until they win games for their SR franchises one struggles to put them ahead of Jantjies.

Also we seem to have forgotten about Du Plessis.

He was on fire before his injury and had a very good game this weekend. Possibly our most intelligent 10.

Not saying Jantjies is our only ten. Just that he's a) got an excellent win record and b) that winning feeling might be valuable in the WC.

Pollard may have had a few good matches but in all honesty hasn't blown me away as I had hoped he would. I expected much more from him under Mitch. He's an average Joe, going about his business as average Joe's do.

Is he the answer to our woes at 10?

I don't think so. He's definitely no world beater.

Would I replace Jantjies at the Lions with Pollard? Definitely not. Jantjies has played an important part in our success over the last few seasons. He has much more flair than Pollard and can turn a match on it's head at any time. He is a talented player and can be very unpredictable.

He is by far the most accurate kicker out of hand and has turned a defensive situation into an attacking one many times.

Then for some inexplicable reason he changes his entire approach when donning the green jersey. He is not the same player ... AT ALL. His confidence and self belief is gone. He's robotic. I wish he'd just relax and play his normal game. He's another Gaffie Du Toit ... struggling with confidence issues and I can't see that changing and day soon ... which forces us to look around for another option. 

All i can day is i would be super worried if the Crusaders or All Blacks relied on Jantjies on running the back line.

Guy falls to pieces under pressure

@ CC

Indeed man!

It is a conundrum of note!

And it's exasperated by the fact that his most recent national coach was the same guy who almost ruined him at the Stormers.

Also, same as Faf he started the first few games against Ireland well and was a major f actor in the series win...then it went downhill. 

So he did cut it at test level, then Coetzee's influence came to the fore.

@ Saderfan

Who, of our slim pickings would you most like to see in the Bok 10 jersey? 

Haha, wait, wait, wait wait!!! 

Who would you, as an AB fan, least like to see in the Bok 10 Jersey?

Jantjies is no international flyhalf - never was and never will be.  The coach is not to blame for him falling apart when under pressure,  He has a long history of that.    

Although Pollard has a history of defensive problems - Jantjies defensive laspses is much worse.   Sad to say - the only real flyhalf coming through is Willemse.

If we want to lose matches because of flyhalf frailty we must keep playing Jantjies.  He was even outplayed by Du Plessis on Saturday when he was playing in a team playing against a  weakened Stormers team.   That was not a good show by a flyhalf who folded constantly when und er pressure.

Plum - the NZ spectators loved Morne at flyhalf because he could be trusted to foul up and since 2012 always did.   So their  suggestions would be a serious source of amusement.       

Plum

Jantjies recent problem has been his crabbing sideways before passing - that put the recipients under serious pressure and neither Vortser or Van Rensburg was in fact really effective this year.

Do not know why if happened recently - but I think the teams have become used to is antics and decided to shut him down which they did with relative ease.   e is not physical enough to do anything about that.  

So ... we're back to Willemse now.

How many times does that make?

I thought he wasn't ready for test match rugby. I thought he was having a poor season? I thought he was too young?

I thought Pollard was the answer.

I suppose we can expect Johan Goosen's name to appear one of these days ... right?

What a clueless clown you are, Mike.

Yeah right! The Morne debate. "Atrocious since 2012" - yeah right. His record for 2012 until being dropped in 2014...

Compared to the Springbok record since 2015...

Clearly we are doing much "better" without him...Where better = More mediocre.

Similar to anything touched by an ANC hand. Glad to see you still subscribe to the mediocrity is best philosophy for SA.

@ Mike

How has that shutting down of Jantjies turned out for our other teams?

Just in more losses as far as I can tell.

You mentioned a weakened Stormers team...how about a Lions team missing Whitely, Kriel and Marx? And that's not to mention the players that left last season in Faf, Akkers, Akkerman. These are/were their best players. 

Regardless, Jantjies continues to battle and his team keeps winning.

How can you place no value on that?

Cumon Mike.

For now Willemse is a prospect, nothing more. Sorry man.

Duplicate

The Troof Fairy

Why did Meyer drop Steyn from the team in 2012 after he buggered up constantly I test matches.   Why did he drop Steyn in 2014 after the June tests against Wales where - especially in the second test Morne was atrocious.  He brought him back in the Perth test - where Morne on his own caused the loss of the test.  After that Morne had 10 minutes playing time in the RWC in 2015 and was a disaster last year when Coetzee used him in two tests.

Record since 2012 - Steyn was poor - end of story.

The worst flyhalf we h ad in the past 25 years - because he never attacked the gain line - could not read games and make strategic kicks  and his defense was a disaster. 

Plum

If Jantjies is the Springbok flyhalf we will keep losing the way we did in 2017 and that would be  disastrous for rugby in SA.   Lets say - The Lions keep on winning despite Jantjies - not because of him.  

Unfortunately i dont see enough of SA games to have an opinion but even we have a shortage of class in that position. Thankfully we have Mounga coming through but daylight back to dmac then nothing much at all. 

Mike ... you must honestly make up your mind on Meyer.

First you regard him as a chump ... and now it seems you value his judgement on Steyn so much so that you actually applaud his actions.

Best thing for you is to decide on one story or another regarding Meyer and stick to it.

SaderFan ... Mounga is a class act ... far better than anything we have here.

I don't really rate DMac as a 10, but would have no issues slipping the Bok 10 jersey over his head.

We would love to have your "shortages" at 10.

Morne was Meyer's friend and even that could not save him.   Steyn was too poor for even Meyer to retain him.   We all know what Meyer knew about backline play - ie near to zero - but even that could nt save Morne from being dropped.  Morne was useless - so was Meyer.     

Morne was Meyer's friend and even that could not save him.   Steyn was too poor for even Meyer to retain him.   We all know what Meyer knew about backline play - ie near to zero - but even that could nt save Morne from being dropped.  Morne was useless - so was Meyer.     

"Lets say - The Lions keep on winning despite Jantjies - not because of him."

Mike that is pure opinion.

How many games this year have his contributions been the difference between winning and losing?

Thus you can re-substitute "despite" with "because of" and your statement would be more correct.

Again, sorry.

I'd slip the 10 jumper over the head of AB De Villiers.

Now that's an excellent idea.

I wonder what he's doing this weekend?