One couldnt but notice how flat the Bok backline was lying in the test against Scotland.
I know this is done so as not to be caught behind the advantage line but it does appear that other problems are created.
The opposition backs are up on you more quickly, Intercepts are more likely, ones own backs dont get up a head of steam and getting the ball wide gets a little bit more difficult.
Boks were lying too flat perhaps?
Morne Steyn don't play flat. Don't even think the Bulls know what flat is.
No we are not laying flat. We are predictable. Every move in the game should involve hiding and holding players. Holding players run strong decoy lines to commit defenders and stop them sliding off. Hiding players look like they are not interested, run as if they aren’t getting the ball then strike like a Cobra
Spoony you are right re Morne. It was an impression I got. So often our players were getting ball and man. I would have to go back and check this impression but I deleted the tape and dont like going over it all again in any event. Also there were some near intercepts by the Scots.
How to please everybody. Ou Maaik have us believe that Steyn is too deep..............
Intercepts usually come when players take the ball to the line then passes. Teams will use the blitz a lot against us cause our players can't think on their feet as quick as the Kiwi's and Aussies do.
Morne Steyn has the courage and the coordination to run straight and use his hands. But his home unionn never taught him to play flat. Look at Peter Grant. Not like by many cause he is not the conventional SA flyhalf. He stands deep on slow ball flat on attack. Against all principles of SA rugby and fly half play.
Hi there windpomp. What was your impression?
Spoony they appeared to be so flat it seemed the opposition were on them in a flash. No room to move.
Grants approach is more sensible. However he is not a great flyhalf just a solid one.
You can actually go from a flat to deep alignment simply by letting the man on your inside depart first – presto, you are now deep. It might appear that way but look how the defense rushes up.
No room to move cause we were predictable. They knew exactly where the ball was going so it looked like we had no room. But you got create space first. We don't do that.
Grant is a good fly half BUT his tactical kicking is not great. Born in the wrong country or wrong era in SA. We believe in Kickbot 3000's
Flat backlines dont work in modern rugby. Boks played quite flat in the loss to australia but it didnt work. its too easy to cut you off from your outside backs and end your attack. you need to engage the defence but you cant play flat. morne has success with the bulls playing a variety of depths depending on field position and other things. cheetahs are also more varied but they have different attack patterns so itsa not the same. if a defence comes up hard and fast inside you cant pass outside because defenders can get in between the attackers. the solution is to engage the defence inside so that you can CREATE space out wide. if you try to move it wide like the sharks then the drift kills you every time. not so easy. but no internation or super side has been successfuyl with the flat attack in the modern era. its just the way it is. results speak for themselves. morne is the best of south africas 10s but the centres are a load of shit. i dont think you guys have one quality centre! new zealand produce loads odf quality centres in every generation, sort of like how you guys propduce loosies. you cant attack if you cant get good centres, they create that space and make any depth possible. also new zealand like to play deeper so they can use their fast wings to beat you. australia traditionally play flattter but they can create space in their centres, but its still not really worked for them since 99/00, maybe 01. coaches dont really advocate flat attack today.
Hi there ihi and welcome to the board. Where are you from? Are you a kiwi?
I would agree with variation and also Morne is still our best flyhalf this year. Surely its the flyhalfs job to get the backline alignment right. Centers follow the flyhalf lead.
That said so often there are some dummy front runners and backs running in a wave behind them.
Dont agree re centers. Jean has been very good over the years. Also think that we have a good one in Jan Serfontein who is about ready to make his mark. JJ also is very promising - fastest 13 in the game.
What? I already explained how to go from flat to deep by simply by letting the man on your inside depart first. Fly half is deep. Kiw flyhalves do this. I think you miss the ball in how they create space. Let me help you out. Lets take the Kiwi's banker pattern for instance. the one they would use to establish a foothold early in games or to get back on track if things had become a little messy.
It is designed to attack the opposition fly half with a power centre (Ma’a Nonu). Nonu will have support from the blindside winger (Cory Jane).
He can receive the ball before the line or Nonu may offload to him through the line. If Nonu takes the tackle, Jane will act as a cleaner at the ruck.
In an ideal world the Kiwi's will make a bust from the the strike play but in case they have not done so they now go into a 31 pattern.
The pattern requires two more ball carries from power runners before they set up their strike shape from the sideline NZ will use guys like Jerome Kaino and Conrad Smith as the second and third carriers because they are effective at producing quality front foot ball.
Once they get to the edge (sideline), the rest of the team have formed a shape that is designed to threaten oppositions tiring defense.
From the wide ruck, the fly half has one support player on his inside and three on his outside.
He will also have four wide players that he can pass or kick to. At this point he needs to make a decision based on what the defence looks like.
If the defence line is tight he may choose to go wide but if the defense is spread out he may choose to take on the line with his support runners. It effective because it grinds down the defending team and allows the fly half (usually Dan Carter) to look for weaknesses in a tiring defensive line.
Yes that is the class of the man. Kiwi's have used that pattern in every world cup game. Go have a look.
bok backlines are generally flat but they dont tend to run onto the ball. our rucks was a mess so the ball generated was rubbish as the scots layed on the wrong side ala kiwi style to disrupt our ruck speed.
in terms of turnstile steyn he has never layed the line out as he does not have the handspeed and speed of pass to sit his outside backs in space. JDV ext crouches closer to him to lessen the passing distance but that does not offer much on attack. the AB players dont stand so close to each other and run more towards the ball so if there ball carrier does go to ground the other players can assist the cleanouts better.
the type of pattern that they guys are playing now and the type of ruck speed we got against the pizza boys is a huge step up so we have to wait and see how it goes. its at least a step in the right direction but for that pattern the work 100% meyer needs to change his stance on brussouw skills on the dirt. louw is not a better fetcher than brussouw and meyers in ablity to understand that might very well be the difference between him winning and losing his job. kolisi had a huge game but lacks the skillset to be a opensider. its a instinct thing and one cant just switch on like a light bulb when it comes to fetching a ball. brussouw has that nack and is the man in my books to take us forward.
the skills at the breakdown has sharpend up this tournament but its not par and for the backliine to function we need the ruck recycling speed to take a massive step up.
in terms of the backline lining up that is the flyhalf and 12's call to do the lining but as i said the speed of pass and width in those 2 channels for the boks are way to slow lacks penetration to be effective. they can manipulate the defence tier much more but its not a impossible thing to sort out.
willie le roux's off the ball running and decision making has really added a lot more options of the ball for the boks backline and i hope he gets the nod above the robotic zane. willie is still learning but one can already see his running lines and decision making is making a big difference. lets hope meyer can stick his conservative cap in his backside and persist with willie.
one can see chean roux influence in some of the backline options. i saw a old maties pattern against the pizza boys and it great to see some proper coaching influence at the boks
Muncher have you any stats to show brussouw is a better fetcher than Louw. I seem to recall someone here showing stats that proved the opposite.
Add in thereafter their other abilities and Louw is well ahead. Deon Fourie is also better than brussouw at 6. What a pity he didn't play there in the Super 15 after his Currie Cup exploits that won him player of the year.
stats ??? how can you compare 2 players playing in different hemisphere comps ???...the NH is well known to be slower and more impact driven and the SH is considerably faster in the terms of pace and intensity. brussouw was injured as well so the stat whores out there that like to reside numbers that if not taken in context of the matches being played is totally worthless. in terms of his skill set and ablitys brussouw is the best. if you can recall louw left SA because he was rated second best to brussouw that benched him and burger with his type of play. he has 7's exp as well that neither louw or anyone else can boast about.
can you recall the cheetahs british and irish lions game that brussouw destroyed the rucks for the lions ?...his has a history of performing way above his so called weight class and his skills on the deck is much better from a coaching perspective. you do lose im line out options but having to choose between the 10 odd lineouts a game to over 100+ rucks in the modern game brussouw will start for me every day of the week. the so called penality issue is a smoke screen to not select him due to his size. nothing more nothing less
in terms of deon fourie i agree with you 100% he is a great player and adds that venom to the rucks that the stormers lacks but he is not brussouw sorry to say
Bob Dwyer won the 1991 RWC by playing a flat backline but he had the centre legendary pairing of Tim Horan and Jason Little to help him!
I agree Muncher he is not a Brussouw - Deon is stronger over the ball, effects more turnovers, carries the ball up much better, is much faster and is more skillfull. Did I miss anything? Thats why he was player of the year in the Currie Cup.
The British and Irish Lions series where Brussouw had two good games. Yes I recall them and also the matches he played subsequent to that where he has not fared that well. Brussouw is a good player but overhyped. Two matches against the Lions made his reputation and regardless of what happend afterwards the rose tinted glasses remained in place. He was turbo charged that year and has not reproduced that form.
Hakwa thanks for the info.
Spoony, nobody has been successful post 1999 RWC with a flat backline. The last time New Zealand tried it they were nearly niled by the Boks and lost emphatically to Australia to lose the Tri Nations. It just doesnt work. It's so easy to suffocate and completely kill by modern defences. Why do you think the ELVs put defences further back, to help give the attack more time to develop and encourage ball in hand rugby. That's the power of modern defences against flat attacks, even the IRB realises this and are trying to combat it.
Beeno1
Brussouw is a good player but overhyped. Two matches against the Lions made his reputation and regardless of what happend afterwards the rose tinted glasses remained in place. He was turbo charged that year and has not reproduced that form.
Beeno I won't say that I agree on your oppinion about Fourie. I agree he should go and play 6 yes, but that does not mean i think he should be our bok six yet....Jury is still out on that one.
I do agree with your above statement on Brussouw though. Yes he is good. But his career was built on that, plus a few other tests he played for South Africa not just those. At the moment however, he is not even a quarter of the player he used to be. Let's hope he gets some of that back.
You should read the insert that Gary Gold wrote. I posted it on here a while ago about the breakdown that is one of the reason as well that i don't think Fourie or Brussouw for that matter are boks. Gary makes a valid argument mostly towards a dual type openside like Louw. This does not mean a player like Brussouw cannot adjust, if he is good enough he should be able to.
