PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
10 Aug 2016, 15:11#1
The Lions home game versus the Canes.
Here is the link to the video. I have only gotten through the first half as time has been a tad tight this week. And even then i haven't actually been very thorough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5luebzZPRY
There is one specific moment that i would like to point out. Remember the flying kick theory i had? Please go to (15:32) on the video and tell me what you see. The guy is literally trying to kick Skosan. It's bloody disgraceful and very telling. One has to be biased beyond logic to watch that clip and still say that this is a normal way to jump...or to land. Is this cheating? No, of course it isn't Wardad. What does this tell us about the intent of some kiwi teams and players? Why do we never see Oz or SA teams doing this sort of thing? Is it a co-incidence that i pointed out Ben Smith was doing this and everyone said i was mad? I provided the example video of where he flying kicked the Welsh guy out of the air at the WC, injuring him...and surprise surprise here we see another Kiwi doing the same?
Here are the infringements i found in the first half.
Note, the times given are video times and not match time. So use video time as your reference.
13:42 - Off-side. Leads to try.
15:32 - The totally legal attempt to kick an opposing player. Because this is normal.
16:14 - Driving line-out jumper before he has landed. Knock-on results.
17:02 - Pulling line-out jumper out of the air.
20:56 - Off-side
21:28 - Off-side
21:49 - Intentional slow retreat AND 3 players off-side.
22:53 - Fails to release ball
24:47 - Pulling line-out jumper down
25:00 - Intentional change of direction to block kick chaser's run
25:28 - Intentional shoulder to the face almost knocks Mostert out. No arms used.
26:28 - Mnisi who is not part of the ruck is taken out.
27:47 - Lions are off-side and are penalised.
29.32 - Cane's players hangs on to Tecklenburg behind ruck.
30:49 - Here is an entire sequence of match spoiling play form the Canes. ---------Intentional maul spoiling firstly, penalty awarded.
---------Ball is taken quickly, Canes not 10. New penalty.
---------Canes off-side near goal line.
---------Next ruck, three players off-side.
---------Canes 7 tries yet again to collapse maul but Lions score.
35:52 - Entire Canes back-line off-side. Notice how quickly they are up on the Lions line.
36:02 - Dane Coles not rolling. Penalised. He meant to roll obviously.
36:55 - Two forwards join maul from the side. Not penalised because by a twist of fate ---------they have done it at the opposite end of the maul where the ref is standing. No ---------penalty given. Canes score soon after.
38:56 - Canes player holds Whitely back behind the ruck.
40:00 - Canes not releasing. Penalty awarded.
40:54 - Two Canes players directly offside and interfering with play due to very slow ---------retreat and blocking the pass to Jantjies. Faf is forced to pass to someone else.
41:01 - Every Canes player who is on his feet is off-side. Is the off-side pressure that ---------results in the poor kick?
45:31 - Canes player continues on past ruck and pulls lions player 3m past ruck, then ---------holds on to him. This Canes player was not part of the ruck at any point in time ---------and is thus MILES off-side.
45:39 - Numerous Canes players diving over the ruck, taking out players who are not ---------involved in the ruck and also falling on the ball.
46:04 - Barrett about 0.5m off-side next to ruck. Has to retreat and go back around the ---------ruck to assist in defense...funny, how he has to run backwards. If he was on side ---------he could simply go forward in the direction of the attacking player.
46:12 - Off-side.
46:20 - Changing lanes to block kick chaser.
And that's half time.
These are the infringements i found from the Canes in the 1st half of this game. Obviously i am no guru on the rules and i was not looking at the Lions. I was being as strict as possible on the Canes.
I found roughly 30 infringements, many of them cynical and game spoiling. Some are debatable. Though there are many which are completely contrary to the spirit of the game.
I will follow this looking at the Lions in the first half and being just as strict on them.
I welcome advice on my knowledge of the off-side law. Really, i could be wrong about a lot of this...obviously. How many off-sides do you count?
How about that flying kick hey Wardad?
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
10 Aug 2016, 15:19#2
I actually phone SuperSport and guess what, one can't by DVDs of S18 games due to copyright infringement when international teams are involved.
How bloody ridiculous. Like, you are literally forced to record it from the tv or pirate it.
JW, please do tell me where i can download the final from as you said you had downloaded it.
10 Aug 2016, 17:16#3
Plum...
Google search rugby films 2016. There's a site where you can watch super rugby aswell as international and can download some of the games.
Hope this helps.
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
10 Aug 2016, 18:00#4
You forgot, how cruel, dear old Beeno has only one eye
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
10 Aug 2016, 18:37#5
Good point Seb. Plus beeno only has one brain cell loosely attached to the eye so things like facts are usually not necessary & rarely result in logical conclusions. Alas poor Plums efforts are wasted. In fairness to Beeno his single brain cell does contain a sense of humor so he's great fun.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
10 Aug 2016, 19:59#6
Plum thanks for yopu excellent analysis of the first half. your comment "I found roughly 30 infringements, many of them cynical and game spoiling. Some are debatable. Though there are many which are completely contrary to the spirit of the game". SAYS IT ALL REALLY.
I have suggested that the fault with bent kiwis is genetical given their unsavoury origins!!!
THe only solution really is to ban kiwi and even OZ refs. Being the kind generous soul I ma I say don't ban kiwi players yet!ou JW is so doff he doesnt realise Plum's finding are in line with Beeno's take on matters. Seb is trying to please so he chooses to do so at teh expense of honesty and of the Lions.
ALL THIS LEAVES BAD PONG AROUND!!!!! BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
CONCLUSION: BEENO AND PLUM HAVE NAILED THIS ONE. JW AND SEB ARE ON THE DARK SIDE
GEgeneraltit
Pro3,164 posts
10 Aug 2016, 20:31#7
We tease you Beeno because we like you...don't have a a one-eyed vision on that...some of our members are more bent than some refer ees in Poland or NZ or even in the WP but life goes on...Craig is a good ref and learning from extreme oddities in rugby...rugby rules is far more difficult than your job of simply adding up figures and studying boring balance sheets and income statements...he is a very trustworthy man, an old boy from my school in Pietermaritzburg who does not have any intentions of living in Kiwi land or forbid it not in Kangarooland.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
10 Aug 2016, 22:37#8
you've never seen a rugby match before or are you a bit backward?
nothing of what you see as an infrigment, really is,....... nothing
13:42. There's no offside at all. If you consider that an offside should have been called because of nº3's and nº7's situation, forget about it, they don't intervene in the play. That's not an offside, never has been.
15:32 - As you said, it's legal,..... and it's not an attemp of kicking an opposing player, he jumps leg first.
16:14 - Lions' player loses the ball all himself, nobody drives him
17:02 - Pulling line-out jumper out of the air? WTF are you talking about? there's nothing wrong in that lineout,....
20:56 -what off-side? there's no offside at all
and it's enough with it,....
we can do the same with the Lions,..... according to your cfriteria in the first 5 minutes of the game:
00:26. Off-side, and its very clearly seen becuse it happens just over the 22 line, Lions' nº7 is technically offside, he's before the foot of the Lions player involved in the ruck and marking the offside. What happens is that these kind of circustantial infringements are never called,..... but according to your criteria, an infringement
00:44. offside, Lions' nº 4. same as the other.
02:15. Liomns' scrum pops up and turns. Penalty.
03:37. Lions scrum pops up again. Penalty and this should have been called, contrary to the previous infringement.
this makes 4 infringements in the first 5 minutes,...... that would make some 30 in the first 40 minutes also
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
11 Aug 2016, 01:17#9
"nothing of what you see as an infrigment, really is,....... nothing"
Really?
At least i can spell "infringement".
Backward you say. Mmm!
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
11 Aug 2016, 14:27#10
Congrats Plum you have obviously routed the kiwis. Poor ab ass made a very feeble defence about as bad as his global warming efforts! Hahahahahahahaha
Seb I take very little here too seriously. Due of course to severe limitations re rugby acumen and political savvy as well as a universe creating itself from nothing etc etc. Bwahahahahahahaha hilarious stuff!
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
11 Aug 2016, 15:00#11
Beeno has found a friend in Plum & his fantasy world is impenetrable.
Beeno's fantasy world - Putting the unused trophy cabinet to good useBut where's wee Noddy?
11 Aug 2016, 23:39#12
How farking sad is some squeezer who spends his days on the dole queue trawling through you-tube looking for something to reinforce his confirmation bias ?Betcha Black Power can spell better in Spanish or the Basque dialect better than you can in English plum-bob broken string .You should forward your 'evidence '' to SAANZAR and maybe they can rig up something with the conferences to level the playing field eh ? Pfffttttt the sound of air escaping your empty head after a far to vigorous nose-pick .....
12 Aug 2016, 10:39#13
Wow, Plum!!!!!!!
I must say, I never expected that from you!
Never figured you for a crybaby.
Tell me something ... what would you have had the ref do with the incident at 15:32?
A card? A penalty?
Come now, Plum? Don't embarrass yourself and most importantly the Lions with this trivial nonsense.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 12:26#14
Relax, I'm getting to the Lions and I will be just as strict, if not more.
Funny how everybody missed the part where I said I looked ONLY at the Canes and was as strict as possible. Either you can't read or as is normally the case on here just read what you wanted.
When I'm done, hopefully you'll see that I've applied the same to both teams.
As I said, I'm trying to underatand how biased I really am.
BTW, that flying kick. Please tell me that was not intentional. The guy actually kicks put at Skosan after he has caught the ball and landed.
Nice attempted insults Wardad. How many kids did you say you have?
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 12:33#15
PS WarBag, i speak 4 languages. Two local ones plus German and Danish. How about you?
12 Aug 2016, 12:46#16
Well ... if you want to sound objective it would perhaps be best to take the whining tearful tone out of the post.
As a reader it sure sounds as if your throwing your toys out in a fit on the floor.
The two local languages are English and Afrik@ans ... right? I think most South Africans can compete with you there.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 13:15#17
Haha CC, ok fine make it 3 local languages then.
For interest sake, how many of you actually looked at the incidents I listed? My guess if very few.
It would actually be nice to get some constructive criticism as regards my knowledge of the laws.
Here are some which I am certain of.
Retreating players are in no way allowed to interfere with play. Making no effort to remove one self from between the 9 & 10 is a penalty. Even if unintentional.
Holding players back behind rucks is not allowed.
Every player not involved in a ruck has to be behind the last man's feet. There are two parts to this which I am uncertain of.
A) Is it the last man who is on his feet who creates the off-side line, or does any player making contact with ruck, even if he is considered to be on the ground create this line?
B) If your team has no players involved in the ruck? Does the ball create the off-side line or does the front most opposing player involved in the ruck create the line.
For my psuedo-analysis I took it that...
A) The last man's feet creates the offside line regardless of whether he is grounded or not.
B) When no team mates are involved in the ruck then the most forwardly opposing player who is involved in the ruck creates the offside line. Admittedly I am highly uncertain of this.
Intentionally kicking another player is foul play.
Grabbing onto an opposing lineout jumper is not allowed, even if it does not interfere with his jump or ball collection.
Driving early in a lineout so that one impedes the landing of a lineout jumper is not allowed.
Changing lanes to block a kick chaser's run is not allowed.
Joining mails from the side is not allowed.
I am wrong anywhere here? Comments would be greatly appreciated.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 13:26#18
Oh and WarHag I don't mean to rub salt in the wounds but i actually spent of total of 3:5 years in Catalonia. Torella De Montgri to be exact. Had a gallery there in my twenties. Would you like me to tell you a little of my Spanish adventures? They involve jazz clubs, sunflowers, alcohol, art, girls, weed and sunshine. I promise to make my voice as much like Morgan Freeman's as I can.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 13:33#19
Oh and Wardad, i forgot to mention. I'm 36 yet my house and vehicles are all settled. Does this disrupt your presumptuous emotional sensibilities?
Tell me again about those sheep? It was so interesting last time.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Aug 2016, 13:45#20
ou warped DUD freaking out again because the warped blowhards are being called out.wee cc has about as much support in him as a jelly baby. in stead of calling line speed off sides he slams poor jantjes!!! Lions please fire wee cc as a supporter. You deserve better!
Plum please keep up the good work. Opening the eyes of head in sand kbbs and closet ab supporters here is a mammoth task.
12 Aug 2016, 14:03#21
U have every right to vent Plum -->noone can take that right away from you. Does not mean your reasons are valid but you have every right to voice them.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
12 Aug 2016, 14:22#22
My reason for "venting" is to see if i am really as biased as i think i must be. I think self-evaluation is always valid.
13 Aug 2016, 08:32#23
Self evaluation is a good thing. It helps you enhance your strengths and work on possible weaknesses.
I think you've chased "DipMyWickInMutton" off.
He's barely literate so you have an unfair advantage. Especially with that third local language.
Be gentle.
The best gift you can give him is a new pair of gumboots ... as his current pair is badly worn down through years of use.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Aug 2016, 11:18#24
Plum keep up the critical evaluation, non PC stuff. kbbs keep getting away with rugby murder!
Beeno ever vigilant and unmasking the sleazy kiwi!
14 Aug 2016, 03:39#25
Plumbrain ,I speak English ,Maori some German and French .Think your special do you ? Pfffttt.If you spend your days on the dole queue trawling through youtube to find only garbage you can squeeze into your conspiracy theories your not just biased your a sad wee individual as well.And having beensh!t for brains as your new BFF is proof of mental incompetency too .
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
14 Aug 2016, 11:38#26
WarHag
Ah I see. We are comparing penis size. Nah, I'm certainly more special than you. My pubes are gold and self styling.
What does trawling mean in your book? For me it means running a wide and extensive search for something.
I typed "Golden Lions vs Hurricanes 2016" into youtube so that I could view this year's games. I'd call that line fishing more than trawling. But it's ok mate. I understand that you need to exaggerate your argument so as to achieve maximum insult. But yeah, I'm the sad one. Wow, some grown ups.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
14 Aug 2016, 12:15#27
CC
The flying kick challenege.
As regards what I consider to be an intentional attempt at kicking another player (15:32).
I discussed that I had noticed Ben Smith doing this for the last two years. A great example of it is during the WC where he actually injures the Welsh full back. Go have a look at that clip. Of course the kiwi's on here say I'm mad. Not a single one of them has yet shown me any evidence of any other team/player doing the same. Reason...because nobody else does. Why does nobody else do it? Because it is completely abnormal, unless your intention is to do more than just contest for the ball. I mean there are only so many ways to balance yourself when travelling through the air.
The very first person I ever saw do this was Uli Schmidt(spelling). He did it with a knee and broke the players(may have been Mike Catt) jaw. At the time it was widely regarded as an intentional. Nobody really argued because Uli was seen as a generally dirty player.
Now. Since then, the only other teams I have ever seen do this are Kiwi teams. Since I started noticing Ben Smith do it, I watch for it in every single high ball encounter in every game regardless of who is playing. This season I noticed numerous team mates of Ben Smith do it too. I underatand co-incidence, but what are the odds?
In this Lions game I never noticed it while watching at live, but cumon look at the video? Who jumps like that? Not only that, but some friends and I were trying to do it and it's totally unnatural. Yes, having your knees slightly raised assists with balance but literally having your leading leg parallel to the ground?
Try it if you don't believe me. Go in your garden, pretend you are catching a high ball and try to replicate what you see at (15:32). Remember, you are not only jumping with your studs up, but also kicking out as you land. Then do the same again but jump normally as if your only intention is to catch a ball. Carry out that very small experiment and I think it will shed a lot of light on the intent behind such jumps and also the kind of reprimand that it deserves. At no point are we allowed to kick players. Why then are we allowed to do so with a run up and whilst travelling through the air?
Having done that, now notice how strangely, these totally "normal" types of jumps seem to only occur when a player is there to be kicked. Somehow, magically when there are no opposing players around, the need to jump like Bruce Lee does not exist. Is that not a tad strange?
Honestly, I'd there something wrong with my logic here?
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Aug 2016, 12:36#28
Plum, I took a look at the notorious 15:32 incident and I can't believe you're making such a big deal of what was a perfectly normal rugby incident.
All this ref-bashing just makes us sound like a nation of sore losers.
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
14 Aug 2016, 16:04#29
Rooi, as far as kicks go this one is not half bad. Skosan can actually be seen avoiding the studs to the chest. Nothing came of it.
However, go and have a look at the Ben Smith incident in the WC game against Wales. Again, who jumps like that?
When say "normal rugby incident", what are you saying? Not a sarcastic question. You saying this happens from time to time and is no biggie, or?
I never bashed the ref bro.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Aug 2016, 21:18#30
Plum, I'm saying rugby is a contact sport and stray boots, elbows or fists are part of the game.
You say you're not bashing the ref yet your opening post lists about 30 bleats where you think the ref got it wrong. Are you going to claim that's not ref-bashing?
I've yet to see one of you ref-bashers who offers a constructive solution to the problem. Most people who have played rugby or reffed a game will know that refs will invariably make mistakes. The sheer volume of laws make it one of the hardest games to officiate so anyone expecting refs to get every call 100% right is delusional.
Instead of whining about every alleged mistake a ref makes, why not put up some constructive solutions? I would per sonally be very interested to know what serial ref-bashers like yourself and Baboon-ou would do to improve refereeing in rugby . . . given that the professional referees we currently have are by far the best qualified human beings on the planet to ref rugby games.
What would you do differently?
14 Aug 2016, 23:34#31
Rooie the point is as far as plum-bob no-brain and baboon-ou are concerned the ref only gets it wrong when their side loses .If refs gave 100% of penalties their way they would probably still find something to whine about unlike most of the posters here.True about the difficulty of reffing a rugby match ,look how often they get it wrong in a stop start game like cricket even with all the tech at their disposal.I have no probs with the refs around these days but like all fans get a bit cheesed off when things dont go how I want them too .Doesnt make me want to make a career out of ref whingeing and whining though .
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
15 Aug 2016, 05:54#32
Rooi. Yeah I guess it could be construed as ref bashing. It does not matter how well the games are officiated a certain element of the game game will always be governed by good sportsmanship. For example, a ref cannot see inside a ruck so we rely on players to respect each other enough not to eye gouge. Things like that.
As for offering constructive ideas, I take it that you have not read numerous posts that I have written which offer positive ideas. On many occasions I have stated that understand that it is an extremely difficult game to officiate and all to often referees make glaring errors that see important matches affected by human error. I have had long debates here where I discussed the referral system, greater involvement by the TMO, touch judges coming in so that scrums can be viewed from both sides, TV refs offering advice from above the scrum and a lot more. Obviously you can't be expected read everything here but do ask Cera if you like...we discussed this at length.
PS, a flying kick is anything but a "stray leg". We can jumble the argument up with words and call the resulting bebate a mess, but once you get down to it, intent is pretty obvious.
Remember how some players have been penalised in the past for raising an elbow to the face of a tackler? Bismark being the most recent incident that I can remember. Would you call that a stray elbow and thus never a penalty? Obviously the chance if elbowing someone in a tackle unintentionally does exist. But, when that elbow is raised to chin height etc intent becomes easier to discern. And yes, players do this. But, even now that I have given you a video example of something very similar, it is somehow completely mad. In fact when we look at the very long list illegal ways players sought to inflict a tad of pain on the opponent, we discover that what I have suggested above fits right in. The only difference being that seemingly very few people have noticed it.
Does that answer your question?
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Aug 2016, 08:50#33
Plum in wee cc you have somebody who has become totally anti sa rugby. I can understand his reasons but he fanatical tirades are sounding more and more unhinged.
Then we have ou rooitwitterbug who is a secret ab supporters and the lamest "supporter" of Bok ruby we had until wee cc turned completely to the dark side.
Plum you cannot expect to get any sense from these to turncoats.
Mike should tell his mate Zuma to deport them both to that penal colony nz! Hahahahahahahahahaha
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Aug 2016, 09:49#34
I recall the fateful day I lost all respect for ou rooitwitterbug and his no backbone take on crooked refs. A sharks player had literally been dumped on his head. That notorious bent ref from OZ Dickerson gave a penalty. I was defending the sharks players and sharks "supporter" rooitwit the ref!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are some confused oaks who imagine if you lose a game the ref cannot be brought to account. To silence valid criticism they resort to name calling whining etc. There is no evaluation of the facts. Glad to say I pay no attention to these hapless dopes. Wins achieved via bent refs are no wins at all in any case, hahahhahahahahaha
Plum you have provided the facts, what have these dopes provided. Zip. Its game set and match to Plum!
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
15 Aug 2016, 14:04#35
"True about the difficulty of reffing a rugby match ,look how often they get it wrong in a stop start game like cricket even with all the tech at their disposal.I have no probs with the refs around these days but like all fans get a bit cheesed off when things dont go how I want them too .Doesnt make me want to make a career out of ref whingeing and whining though ."
Should the TMO override the on field ref. Sure as hell he should. I'll pick an example from a Bok game, not due to bias but just because for me it's a great example. The Bismark tackle Carter that got him sent off. The TMO sat by and watched a very bad call being made. Sure the ref may have been under pressure etc etc. But, what ever the reason for the mistake, the TMO has to be more involved because in that specific instance a Bismark was literally walking off tye field while the big screen showed a textbook tackle for the entire stadium to see. That's the stuff we need to get rid of. Joubert call that saw Ritchie's team lose the SR final last year. Same thing. The refs are not perfect and yeah they're professionals and good at what they do. But by not using technology that is available to us we are not helping them at all. We are jsut causing them to take more flack.
We all but eradicated bad try calls now in rugby. Why not move on to the next step and gradually rid tye game of as many bad calls as we can? To me that makes sense.
Here is your quoted argument in a nutshell. Cricket umpiring was bad. Rules were brought in that saw the vast majority of bad calls being eradicated from the game. But, because the odd bad call still occurs the entire new system is flawed and there is nothing to be done. I can't personally follow that logic. Shall I remind you of the great Darryl Hare(spelling) and his vendetta with Pakistan? Or possibly Mike Atherton knicking it to second slip but somehow surviving? That stuff never happens these days...because cricket embraced technology the way rugby should. Simply using the TMO for calls on tries is a good start but nowhere near what it should be. The guy has the best view of the game and multiple media systems at his disposal. For my money he should be much more involved.
An example would be viewing scrums. The TMO never makes calls on scrums yet he literally has the best view by a long distance. Why is he not used in this area of the game?
If anyone gives me the "ref tradition" argument my brain might actually explode. A correct result will always take priority over the tradition of refereeing.
Were I you I'd put some insult in here, but i won't do that.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
15 Aug 2016, 19:20#36
Plum, Rome wasn't built in a day and the coaching of oaks like ab ass, JW, warped DUD and of course ou rooitwit is a long term project with no guarantees that they will ever get there!
Hacked waaaugh by being very brief has escaped evaluation.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Aug 2016, 20:17#37
Still waiting for the Lions' critical a.n .a.l.y.s.i.s ?
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
16 Aug 2016, 01:21#38
It is coming Draad.
I have to mentally prepare. Literally forced myself not to wear my Lions slippers around the house. Been trying very hard to get in a reversed biased state of kind hehe.
I'm almost ready :)
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Aug 2016, 02:18#39
What sort of gallery Plum.....Valdez, Barcelo, Tapies?
PLPlum
Captain21,007 posts
16 Aug 2016, 10:17#40
Finally, some leverage Moz. Tell you what. Drop some knowledge on me regarding my understanding of off-side, and I shall talk more about the gallery :)