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FORUM / RUGBY /  For those who doubt Frans could play Bok 10....

For those who doubt Frans could play Bok 10....

Started by Mozart54 REPLIES677 VIEWS· 23 Mar 2014, 15:14
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Mar 2014, 15:14
#1
23 Mar 2014, 15:14#1

....ask yourself who the last RWC winning Bok 10 was. That's right....the Butcher. Compa re for a moment Frans with the Butcher:

 

1) Frans is likely to stay on the park the whole game, not get a yellow.

 

2) Frans has much better tackling technique, while being just as feasome. This is a rich vein to mine. With a bit of coaching to get his timing right at 10, Fransie could be making massive hits in 10 channel....even on loosies as we saw yesterday. Combine that with a good fetcher and we have a source of turnover ball.

 

3) Nobody in the game kicks it further and as we saw a few weeks back, Fransie has learned to get the ball away faster and eat the pill if a charge down is in the offing.

 

4) We dont have a better offloader in the tackle in the backline ranks. Set Fransie up to do this, and run players off him and you have a real tool for getting over the game line.

 

5) The nonsense that this guy can't pass will also disappear as he gets more time at 10.

 

 

So I would give him an extended stretch at 10.....he clearly relishes it and has the physical credentials. The software needs to be refined and patterns need to be evolved to take advantage of his unique strengths. But the alternatives, Morne, Lambie, Goosen and Boshoff all have limitations. Why not go back to the power flyhalf like Butch or Lem.....it worked in the past and Steyn is a much more skilled player than those chaps.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Mar 2014, 16:12
#2
23 Mar 2014, 16:12#2
 Mozart
Lets analyse the above a bit and see what reality is:-
*   Steyn will not get a yellow card beca use he does not do enough to warrant one.
*   Steyn has the worst defense record of any of the present 10's or 12's - his technique may be better - his application is rubbish.   He must look fearsome to you - but he did not look like that to Faf de Klerk - who easily ran around him and so did Harris.  He has a speed deficiency - which no amount of training will correct.
*  How did he get the ball away faster and "eat the pill"  - what bloody pill is ah taking - a diet pill?   Because he was never charged down he achieved something? That really is not the reason for anyone to be in the Springbok team or even the Sharks team. 
*  No better off-loader in a tackle situation?   Steyns off-loads are rare and consists of throwing the ball back aimlessly  to his team when being tackled with the hope that someone on his side will collect the ball.  There is no accuracy in any off-loads he made.   The way he ran and goes down in tackles in fact reduces the chance of any effective off-loads being possible.  Off-loads are only possible if he is able to go to ground slower with his arms free to make an accurate off - load something Steyn never does.     
*   Steyn only pass balls by accident and his passing game is often enough inaccurate and seriously problematic.   Maybe he can learn to pass better, but if he has not done so by the age of 26 - he never will.   
See his stats about losing ball possession and giving away penalties as well and you will see the picture emerging of opposing teams throwing parties if he is ever selected at flyhalf for the Springboks - because they can only gain from it. 

Other than the opening Super 15 game this year - despite his kicking at goal there was not a single game where Steyn's overall performances in games were satisfactory.  If you can prove otherwise then by my guest.  



AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
23 Mar 2014, 16:41
#3
23 Mar 2014, 16:41#3
 clevermike,
mozart was referring to F Steyn not Lambie in case you misread.
You have got to get over it guy.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Mar 2014, 19:03
#4
23 Mar 2014, 19:03#4
 AJ
I know exactly who Mozart was referring to - he is trying to justify things that is just not in evidence insofar as Francois Steyn is concerned.  And to say that at 26 years of age a person can be taught things totally absent in his rugby repertoire is just a daydream.  Steyn has been playing the game for more than 8 years on senior level - and that is a fact.   For him to start learning about things at his age - things that he should have known throughout his career - is just a joke.
I think Steyn has the physique - but at the same time he lacks one major requirement of any top flyhalf  - namely to read games and to instinctively take action depending on game situations.  Without that ability a flyhalf cannot function at top level. 
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 Mar 2014, 19:11
#5
23 Mar 2014, 19:11#5
Frans needs to prove a lot more before he makes the Boks side. Right now his long range goal kicking is what he offers. A few nice passes as well. 
I keep looking for some signs of the athleticism he used to have . Where could it have gone is the mystery.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 Mar 2014, 19:45
#6
23 Mar 2014, 19:45#6
 Beenp
Athletic ability is more noticeable in younger players and as they develop more bulk it goes out of the window.   When Steyn started off his career as a rugby player he weighed about 97 kgs.  
In France his weight rapidly increased and fat is one thing that affects athleticism as well.  He was obviously overweight when he returned  from France and last year at one stage he was 118 kgs in weight.  He now lost a lot of weight - but he also lost his youthful athleticism.
Sorry - but it is gone for keeps and so is his speed. .     
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
23 Mar 2014, 21:24
#7
23 Mar 2014, 21:24#7

How much athleticism did Butch or Honibal have? I'm not expecting Frans  to gas Aaron Cruden, I'm expecting him to run through him. But speaking about atleticism, how about his sprint to collect a dangerous through ball a few minutes from time, with the strength to hold on with two Bulls trying to dispossess him. 


What of course is lost in all this mumbo jumbo is Fransie was the MOM in the game he started at 10. How much more could he achieve if he got a Lambie run of 10 or more games at 10.


This is the lack of imagination that has always dogged our rugby.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 02:58
#8
24 Mar 2014, 02:58#8
Mozart
This is ridiculous - a man is made MOM for kicking at goal - the rest of his game was putrid.   The lack of imagination is what Steyn displayed at flyhalf - not anything else. 
Just one other thing.  That holding on to the ball while two Bulls try to dispossess him lead to the Bulls final penalty goal and destroyed the game for the Sharks.  A penalty kick straight in fronmt of the polls with two minutes to go was not an answer tpo anything - but a definite loss by his team.        
"I'm not expecting Frans  to gas Aaron Cruden, I'm expecting him to run through him."  Who did Steyn "run through" this year - either when playing at center or at flyhalf?   Nobody really - the few missed tackles by oppsong players do not indicate any real abilities in ball carrying.  His tendency to run straight at defenders and getting tackled early and his consequential lack of ability to in any way create space for other players to operate in - is what actually happens.   
Cruden has nothing at all to fear from Steyn - he would run around Steyn like little Faf and Harris did - the reason being - Steyn's deficiency in speed.        
RU
RugganutClub Pro183 posts
24 Mar 2014, 05:06
#9
24 Mar 2014, 05:06#9
 This is the lack of imagination that has always dogged our rugby.
Moz. Could not agree with you more! Spot on.
Mike, as much as i like your commentary, get a grip on things. If you have not noticed this is an opinion board. Very little is fact here and the stats you are always referring to are interpretations to try and make facts. These stats are individual figures for a team game which opens these individual numbers to a margin of error. Here is an idea. What are Frans stats when he has played at 10 ?
Get over the opinion that there are some, me included, that Frans should have a go at 10. South African rugby has been devoid of any imagination for far too long. The fear of loosing ones job and ending up in a 'plakkers kamp' is all too real. Not taking any risk stifles development and change.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Mar 2014, 06:00
#10
24 Mar 2014, 06:00#10
 Nice to see somebody else who is willing to think out of the box Rugganut. It may not work, but boy if it does it makes us a whole different proposition. Keo on Fransie makes the point I tried to make:

" Steyn is playing as well as he has ever played. I’d say he is playing the best rugby of his career because of the maturity in his game.

Wow, he is on fire.

He is taking ownership of everything he does. He is a leader in this team and a veteran in his approach. Steyn won a World Cup as a 20-year-old and even though he is still only 26 he is showing the maturity and attitude of one much older in playing years.

It’s a joy to watch him play. His passion is what you expect of an X-factor player, but not always what one gets from such gifted players.

He so nearly won the match for the Sharks with a late drop goal and it isn’t often that the Man of the Match award goes to a player on the losing side.

Steyn and Matfield were not in Meyer’s Bok squad last November. Both, if they are not injured, will be in the Bok squad in June. It makes for a more potent Bok unit having two players of such pedigree available and in form.

Steyn was a class apart among the backs on display at Loftus and those with an appreciation for the nuances of the game will know the exact value of Matfield’s contribution."

FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
24 Mar 2014, 08:52
#11
24 Mar 2014, 08:52#11
 The thing is...who is actually a more solid candidate for the number ten shirt.I read in the Rapport sport section an interview with Morne Steyn.Dont know if you were aware...but his move to France wasn't just his idea.Lets just say anther coach is thinking ahead.About conditions in England in 2015.But as a solid candidate Frans Steyn really has the braun and the brains to challenge for the number ten shirt.At 26,he all ready has won a worldcup,played over 50 test matches and is an intimidating presence on the field come defence and come goal kicking.I would like to see him wear the shirt...But Hyneke has allready made his mind up.Why else would he ask Morne to go play in Europe.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 09:37
#12
24 Mar 2014, 09:37#12
 Morne Steyn went to France and ends up playing second fiddle to Plisson whenever the latter is available to play for Stade Francais - so how successful is this French excursion?   It shows he is not the flyhalf Meyer and some of his fans would like to make us believe he is.
Mozart - it is indeed a pleasure if you are an opposition  supporter to see Francois Steyn play.  His constant lack of producing anything of substance insofar as attack is concerned, his poor decision making game,  his poor passing game or even absence of such a game - he defective defense - his too many penalties donated to the opposition - are all a pleasure to watch by the opposition supporters.  The only displeasure for them is seeing him kicking goals - for the rest the opposition supporters love him. 
I know you are blinded by prejudice - but those are facts and I almost laugh when I see what Steyn produces.   Statistically he was one of the weakest performers at center or flyhalf that is on display this year - so let ignorance and prejudice reign supreme - the facts about his actual performances are worrying factors.       
You elsewhere said Steyn is not flashy - and your latest statements re enthusiasm reminds me about whar Saffex wrote about Earl Silky Hands - how enthusiastic he is. The difference is that Steyn is not flashy - there has been occasions where Earl Silky Hands were.   
To forget all the negatives of a player and then cover it with what he produces at kicking at goal and a vague description of enthusiasm is frankly bullshit in capital letters.    Show me on instance where Steyn in all round play produced ANYTHING of value and I will produce evidence of ten cases where he buggered up badly in the past five games.   That is the crux of the matter.        
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
24 Mar 2014, 10:30
#13
24 Mar 2014, 10:30#13
 He might not be the flyhalf or player you think he is...but then again what you think mike mean nothing tbh.The only thing that matters is what Hyneke thinks.He was the one that asked Morne to go and play in France,to get used to the conditions...LOL...as much as I hate it,I think we all are in for a surprize come the RC and RWC 2015.I also predict that we wont win that tournament.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Mar 2014, 10:53
#14
24 Mar 2014, 10:53#14


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 9856 RE: For those who doubt Frans could play Bok 10....
March 24, 2014, 07:37:08  Morne Steyn went to France and ends up playing second fiddle to Plisson whenever the latter is available to play for Stade Francais - so how successful is this French excursion?   It shows he is not the flyhalf Meyer and some of his fans would like to make us believe he is.
FFS Mike, when are you going to stop fucking lying? This past weekend was only the third time since Dec 2013 that Plisson was played ahead of Morne Steyn. It is a matter of rotation by Stade Francais you fool. I posted the use of Steyn and Plisson on another thread and, as usual, you disappeared with your leg between your tails. So let me give you the updated facts:

Top14:

20 Dec v Grenoble. Steyn start. Plisson bench
29 Des v Perpignon. Plisson start. Steyn bench.
4 Jan v Biarritz. Steyn start. Plisson bench
24 Jan v Castres. Steyn start. Plisson bench
8 Feb v Clermont. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
15 Feb v Brive. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
22 Feb v Oyonnax. Steyn start. Plisson 6N
28 Feb v Montpellier. Steyn start. Plisson bench
22 Mar v Toulouse. Plisson start. Steyn Bench

European Challenge Cup:
8 Dec v London Irish: Plisson.
14 Dec v London Irish: Plisson start. Steyn bench
9 Jan v I Cavalieri Prato. Both Steyn and Plisson rested
16 Jan v Lusitanos XV. Both Steyn and Plisson rested

If you exclude the games where both Steyn and Plisson was rested, as well as the games where Plisson was away, it still leaves you with Steyn starting 4 times and Plisson on the bench and Plisson starting 3 times with Steyn on the bench.

You tried, in the same way, to prove that Bakkies was side-lined by Toulon.



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 11:24
#15
24 Mar 2014, 11:24#15
 Dof doos
Plisson was called up to the French camp for preparation of the French campaign in the 6 Nations on 14 January 2014.   From then to the 8th of March he was technically not available for Stade Francais.   Being absent from the side for more than 6 weeks - there is no way that he would start on 28 February 2014 - when it was an off weekend for the 6 Nations in any event. 
So forget about the games from mid January till 8 March 2014.  In the first game after the 6 Nations completion - Plisson was back as first choice flyhalf for Stade Francais.
Use that misbehaving brain cell at least sometimes when you try and proof a point on this site.      
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Mar 2014, 11:47
#16
24 Mar 2014, 11:47#16
 I am not surprised that you are trying to disguise your blatant bullshit again. Look closely. Very closely and you will notice that for the game preceding the 6N, in Feb, Steyn started with Plisson on the bench. The game after the 6N (which is the game of 28 Feb), Steyn started with Plisson on the bench, once again. How could Plisson have been unavailable if he was right there on the bench?

The long and the short of it is that when of the eight times that both Plisson and Steyn was available, Steyn started 4 times and Plisson 4 times.

More blatant bullshit:

"there is no way that he would start on 28 February 2014 - when it was an off weekend for the 6 Nations in any event. "

You should rather now STFU (Shut the fuck up) because you are making an idiot of yourself. Both Steyn and Plisson played in the game against Montpellier on 28 Feb. In fact, as someone else pointed out on another thread, when Plisson came on on the 63rd minute, Steyn was not even taken off. Plisson replaced Richard Kingi, the fullback. Steyn was then moved to fullback and Plisson replaced Steyn. That was after the scrummie, Jerome Filliol was replaced by Julien Dupuy a minute before.


The match report from the LNR website:
http://www.lnr.fr/calendrier-resultats-top-14.html

click on Feuille de match


I accidentally left out the game of the past weekend in the list (but I have mentioned it in my opening paragraph) and subsequently got the numbers wrong. I have now revised it, as above. Fact is, however, that SF are clearly rotating Steyn and Plisson, since they have been in the starting line-up for four games each. You are making a mountain of a molehill. All in an effort to boost your crusade..
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:06
#17
24 Mar 2014, 12:06#17
 Dof doos 
The key games for Stade Francais they will always start with Plisson.   They can take a chance with Morne from time to time and ritate the two - but Plisson is obviiously the better flyhalf.
H owever, the doos missed the topic again - this is about Francois Steyn - not his wicked namesake.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:27
#18
24 Mar 2014, 12:27#18
Say wasn't your hero Piss-on dropped for the Irish test....hahaha. And honestly who cares what the Frogs think. If I were selecting a flyhalf for a serious game and had the choice of Morne and Piss-on, it would be Morne every time.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:34
#19
24 Mar 2014, 12:34#19
 Duplication
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:34
#20
24 Mar 2014, 12:34#20
 Dupl ication
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:34
#21
24 Mar 2014, 12:34#21
Duplication
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:34
#22
24 Mar 2014, 12:34#22
 MozartHe was dropped - yet he is still better than piss-poor Morne at flyhalf.  
Does that tell you anything?
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:36
#23
24 Mar 2014, 12:36#23
Some more Mike Bullshit. You wouldn't know a key game in the French Top14,if you were moered between the eyes with one. You have no fucking clue what is going on in that competition. I have told you before. If you did know, then you would have known that it is a "different" competition altogether where each and every game is virtually a key game because of the competitiveness. It is not strange at all to see a bottom of the log team beat one of the top dogs and that is why I like to watch it.

I do not know exactly why it is, but I have a suspicion that it could be due to their bonus point structure. Unlike other competitions where you get a bonus point for scoring four tries, you get a bonus point for three tries. There is a slight difference though. You have to score at least three tries more than the opponents to get a try bonus point. So you do not often get games where the teams score six or seven tries each. It demands a balance between a ttack and defence. You have to keep on attacking to score that try bonus point and you have to keep on defending to keep the other side from stuffing up your try-lead. A three try lead is never enough to just decide to park the bus and switch to total defence mode, like we often see teams do in the S15 as soon as they have their four tries.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:44
#24
24 Mar 2014, 12:44#24
Piss-poor Morne? No Piss-on doesn't affect Morne's financials to the extent he would be poor. Look OOM you were talking up Piss-on big time and then he gets dropped. Can't you even get one right?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 12:44
#25
24 Mar 2014, 12:44#25
 Dof Doos
Did Stade Francais go back on the Top 14 Log while they were forced to play piss-poor Steyn at 10 in Plisson's absence?  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
24 Mar 2014, 13:22
#26
24 Mar 2014, 13:22#26
Ou Superkont, as I said, you know fuck all about the French Top 14. how many players did Stade Francais have in the 6N squad and how many did their opponents, in that time have in the 6N squad? Stade Francais had 6 players in the French squad. Add to that the fact that SF also lost another key player to the 6N, i.e. Sergio Parisse. Their opponents during the 6N and the number of players in the 6N squad were:

Clermont.
SF lost away by 25-13. Clermont had four players in the French 6N squad. If you knew anything about the French rugby, you would have known that Clermont is the toughest European team to beat at home. They had 70+ consecutive home games and I am not 100% but I think they are still unbeaten at home.

Brive.
SF lost by 28-12. Brive had no players in the French Top 14 side.

SF did not play any Top 14 games during the March rounds of the 6N.

So, your arguments turns into cow-dung once again.


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
24 Mar 2014, 14:49
#27
24 Mar 2014, 14:49#27
Frans is not a 10, he is far better at 12............at best Frans had a solid game with limited opportunities  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Mar 2014, 16:03
#28
24 Mar 2014, 16:03#28
Actually most of his game was at 12.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Mar 2014, 16:26
#29
24 Mar 2014, 16:26#29
Mozart
Other than goal kicking - Frnas was not really up to standard in any facet of the game he played - whether at 12 or 10.
 Steyn0/0126/3/4000029/30/010/0
Nothing on attack   - Lost possession of the ball twice - missed his normal number of tackles (25% missed tackle ratio once again) and gave away a sitter penalty,
His decision making was standard - of the 13 balls he handled he -
  *  kicked away 6 balls - two of which was severely criticized by the commentators as merely handing possession over to the opposition;
  *  carried the ball 4 times for no meter gain over the gain line; and
  *  as per normal  more than 20% of the  balls he got died with him.
Esterhuizen0/000/0/21602011/00/000/0
If Esterhuizen who was on the field of play for 13 minutes do something positive with ball in hand - why could Steyn in 80 minutes do squat in the relevant regard? 
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
25 Mar 2014, 04:33
#30
25 Mar 2014, 04:33#30
 Moz, looks like Sharks are going to go with Zeilinga at 10. Would have been an interesting cameo. Maybe it will still happen if Zeilinga flops.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Mar 2014, 04:48
#31
25 Mar 2014, 04:48#31
Well this thing can only work if there is complete commitment. Obviously Jake doesn't want to go there....which I can understand. But the way Fransie responds when he gets the chance tells me he still has the motivation to play 10. This thing may have a few surprises yet.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Mar 2014, 05:16
#32
25 Mar 2014, 05:16#32
 oi-matey
The newspaper speculation refers to Zeilinga - but I think that the likely flyhalf will be Swiel.
Jake is no fool- he saw what Francois Steyn in fact produced at 10 and despite all the brouhaha and especially the so-called motivation, he realizes that Steyn's overall performance at present is sub-par in all respects bar kicking at goal.
The thing may have a few surprises yet - like Steyn be benched earlier once Jordaan is back and that his replacement will be Esterhuizen.   Steyn's performances are going backwards with every game he plays in and White is not going to accept that for much longer.   
The Sharks have now lost a game.   If this is repeated the continuous non-performers - of which Steyn is definitely one -will suffer badly and reputation and a few kicks of goal will count for nothing .
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Mar 2014, 13:00
#33
25 Mar 2014, 13:00#33
 
Oh brother ... the same old horseshit I see, hey Faggot.

Frans Steyn at 10 for the Boks?? Your absurdity knows no bounds.

Put Marnitz in the Bok 10 jersey ... as I said a few months back. The man has talent oozing out of every orifice ... isn't that right, Stupid??




CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Mar 2014, 13:26
#34
25 Mar 2014, 13:26#34
Cleancut
Welcome back on Board - really refreshing to see you around.  
We can commence with our battles afresh.   However, Mozart is onto a new and utterly useless campaign about Francois Steyn at 10 - because his goal kicking is so wonderful - never mind the fact that the rest of his performances have gone further backwards in every game he played.
When anybody points out the fact that Steyn's all-round performances are not up to standard - Mozart ignores it and comes up with a new fairy tale - something to the effect that Steyn has now taken over the role of the captain as a leader in the team.Utter BS obviously.       
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Mar 2014, 14:07
#35
25 Mar 2014, 14:07#35
 
On second thought ... maybe Faggots just baiting you.

He does it all the time.

I mean he can't be that stupid ... surely?? ... can he??


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Mar 2014, 14:12
#36
25 Mar 2014, 14:12#36

Ah the return of the Bald Eagle. Well the thing is, I could change my mind on Fransie....but you will still be bald. You have to admire all these baldies, who make a virtue out of necessity....hahahaha.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Mar 2014, 14:22
#37
25 Mar 2014, 14:22#37
 
And what pray tell is wrong with a clean shaven dome?

Hmmmmm??

A lot better me thinks as apposed to constantly having to reset one's comb-over, don't you think Mozart?


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Mar 2014, 14:35
#38
25 Mar 2014, 14:35#38
Clean shaven.....waaaaaaahahahahahaha. Why do I surmise nature was  the razor. Nothing wrong per se with being a baldy, but when you run your stubby little fingers over your bald pate, there must be some bitter sweet memories.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
25 Mar 2014, 14:55
#39
25 Mar 2014, 14:55#39
 
There's usually a remnant left ... like skirting ... you know that of course ... I much prefer running my "stubby" fingers over a tidy dome than having to paste what I've let grow rebelliously on one side with some kind of gel.

Besides ... it goes with my tough guy persona ...

How tough am I gonna look while putting the damn skirting back in place every so often ... huh?


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Mar 2014, 15:11
#40
25 Mar 2014, 15:11#40
You "tough guys" are usually posturing for the other guys. I have always found that a bit suspicious. What has your avitar spotted, another bald toughie! Waaaaahahaha.
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