Francois Steyn - is he going to be dropped from the Sharks team

Another one to chew on for members.  

Now let me get to the facts as I see it.   At the start of the season Plumtree made the decision that Steyn woud be the captain whilst Daniel was injured.   Steyn did nothing in the second round that could be regarded as enhancing his team performance or damaging it.   He was at best average and that is a fact.  

In the second round he was worse and he became the epitome of a non-performer bringing nothing of real value to the team.   The non-performing backline and lack of scoring of tries let to a comment by Plumtree to the effect that they have recognisse the problem and is working on it.   This apparetly never happened and when Steyn produced a series of nothings in the game against the Kings - Plumtree got so miffed that despite the captaincy - he subbed Steyn roundabout minute 60.  What actually happened was that the Sharks backline play improved markedly without Steyn on the field of play.

I thought that alone could result in his dismissal from the team as from the game against the Brumbies - but it never happened.  In the game on SaturdaySteyn  was poor as well and his lack of ball sense was a major factor again.   His perormance was poor at center and he was about to be subbbed roundabout minute 60 - when Ludick got injured and Steyn was moved to full back - where he disgraced himself.

Plumtree than made a statement that th senior players let the team down against the Brumbies.  He did not mention names and one wonders who were the culprits were.   The senior players who had poor games were in fact Pietersen, Steyn, Du Plessis, Bresler, Kankowski and even Daniel. That brings me to the following deductions:-

*   No action would in fact be taken against Pietersen, Du Plessis, Bresler and Daniel - a tonguelashing being inevitable,  but that is where it would end:

*  The position of Kankowski is under threat and I think he will be replaced since he and Daniel combined is not a good idea.   The question remains by whom. I have a suspicion  it could be by Du Toit as Alberts is not available.   If he was the person that could be threatened would be Bresler and again the threat would be Du Toit.

*   That leaves only Steyn who has serious question marks as to what woud happen 

That brings me to the conclusion that Steyn will not be in the team against the Rebels on Saturday - I am sure he is going to  be left out this weekend and the excuse will be player rotation.   If the expected improvement in backline play occurs - Steyn would be out for the rest of the season.  Matter of fact is that I do forsee a situation that he would not even on the bench.

What do you think about this issue?

clevermike you guys are like the yanks - you put Steyn on a pedestal and now you want to put him under the pedestal.

A case of unrealistic expectations perhaps but it's not that bad as rigor mortis has'nt quite set in yet.

Sharks are still the top SA side and character assasination is'nt very constructive is it. Sure it's disappointing to lose but it was against a top team thats currently leading the competition. The Brumbies game against the Stormers should put things in perspective.

Did'nt Franz use to play fullback for the Boks ?

Thats where he played successfully in the past getting you through pool play by the skin of your teeth during the WC.

From memory FSteyn was the difference between winning and losing to Wales and Samoa i think . Why does'nt he play at fullback anymore ?

Theres no doubt at this stage Frans Steyn has failed produce a high consecutive form rate over the last few matches, i don't expect Steyn to be dropped from the team for the reason being he will have a sense of awareness of what needs to be done to improve the performance to a higher level. Its all part of the game, Steyn is in a state of learning from mistakes. I can recall a statement you made mike saying Stormers will lose by 20+ to the Chiefs due to Jantjies being selected, well that wasn't the case Jantjies did improve, Steyn can too. What can be said regarding Sharks backline is both Lambie and Steyn had a lack of creativity, hopefully they execute the set peices more precisely with mobility, i believe they can this week.

Lucid, Mike got it badly wrong re the chiefies as he has these blindspots. He gets a bee in his bonnet and it just keep humming the same old.

However I am concerned as to who Coetzee will pick. An ultra lightweight backline could lead to the Stormers struggling to hold the Brumbies.

He should also start with Tiaan at hooker and Deon Fourie at 6, a far stronger and better athlete than Kolisi. Kolisi and Aplon as impact players off the bench. He could also play Elstadt at lock and Rhodes at 7.

It is a great pity we have got off to such a poor start injury wise. We ought not to have lost a match!! Tiaan, Etzebeth, Burger, Rhodes, Grant? Habana, De Jongh and Taute come to mind.

Ou black udder, clearly a rugby novice thinks all this doesnt matter.  

black adder

Steyn apparently tried desperately to eat up the whole food supply chain in France.   He is overweight and his pace is more or less the same as that of a prop.   That made him to my mind an impossibility at full back and it could be seen on what he produced when he was the full back on Saturday.

I agree with you about the pedestal issue.  I think it very wrong the way some people think about players.   But the issue remains that we should judge players on performance and even those on pedestals should be dealt with accordingly.   If they continue to fail - then the pedestal should be removed and the matter should be dealt with with cold realism.

Steyn turned out to be no star - he lost his aura when he returned from France.  And what I wrote above are facts not fiction. 

Some bozos on this board look at a players history ... his former glory days ... if he had any and base their entire argument on that.

It's foolishness.

It's the here and now that I'm interested in. The players current form. Not what he did when Moses fell of his camel.

Steyn has lost his hunger ... his hunger for rugby that is ... and replaced it with a hunger for poenda, cheeseburgers and jelly doughnuts.

As I've said before, he is overweight, undisciplined ... a liability to any and every team and should have been dropped after his first match and told to get himself in shape or piss off.

Anyone who claims he had a good season last year is a damn fool and should be dismissed as completely ignorant or just plain argumentative. 

Things is ... who should replace Fat Fransie at 12 ... surely not Meyer Bosman??

I guess even he is better than chubby butt Frans Steyn.

Beeno

I am sorry to say - but I was not impressed by what the Stormers produced in their first two games - hence my prediction on this site of a huge Stormers loss - but that maybe was a bit of needling.  In the Superbru competition I tipped a win by the Stormers by 6 points.

There were two issues that bothered me in that test.  The one was the very poor performance of Jantjies in the first round.   However, he did perform better in the second round - bringin his performance from weak to somewhere around under-par to acceptable.   However, in the third round Jantjies did produce something by a substantial improvement in his performance.

Strictly on form prior to the Chiefs game the signs was  loss by the Strormers.   However, there was danger signs for the Chiefs as well.  They struggled for 60 minutes against the forwards of the Cheetahs and only managed to get good possession in the last 20 minutes when their backline thencould then run riot.   That was not recognized by many and I myself thought the Stormers forwards might not up their game in a way they did.  The fact that the Stormers did - resulted in the situation where the Chiefs did not attack through the channel and when they did De Allende was able to deal with the attacking players conclusively and stopped the attacks conclusively.

Howevr, that is past history.   What is important that the Stormers pick their team according to what can be expected against the Brumbies.  I think they will concentrate a lot of their efforts in attacks along the channel and although i rate De Villiers highly - he is not such a strong tackler as De Allende and the ball will not be slowed down leading to a gap outside of him.  De Jongh would not manage that one and the Bumbies would score tries from those  plays.

I would have been confortable with Jantjjies at flyhalf - purely because I thought that De Allende would be able to help in dealing with the defensive deficiencies.   However,  I obviously would have preferred Grant as flyhalf to deal with the defence issues.

But it would be useless to dream about it - Coetzee believes in rubbish about backline play and that was proven time and time again last year.    He has a bee in his bonnet about players and his "love affair" with a non-productive De Jongh is legendary.   Coetzee will be forced to play Pietersen on the wing or at full back because he has to have a reliable goal kicker in the team - Jantjies cannot be trusted to meet that requirement (under pressure he misses everything).

I am afraid the small players backline won't hold up against the Brumbies attacks and will not have a counter -effect of strong attacking play in return.   So the Stormers will field a team of good forwards and the rest of a team comprising very small players to defend against attacks.   

I want to state some facts here : about size and weights of the possible backline:-    

Full back

Two possibilities and both is given:-

Taute       -        1,87        -       95 kgs

Pietersen  -       1,80        -       86 kgs

Wing

Three possibilities here

Pietersen   -  As given above

Aplon       -        1,75        -       78 kgs

Van den Heever  - 1,90   -      101 kgs

Center

De Jongh   -       1,75      -         84 kgs

De Villiers   -      1,93     -         103 kgs

Flyhalf

Jantjies      -       1,76    -            84 kgs

Scrumhalf

Grooom      -       1,71    -            81 kgs

If you take Coetzee's dream team the situation is a classic:  -   The average weight of the backline players would be 86,9 kgs.   That really is a farce and  can never work out.  Smallish players at scrummy and with a big maybe at flyhalf could be acceptable - other than that it should be above 92 kgs.   If Coetzee picks the centers, full backs and wings as follows the weight would be acceptable:-

Taute, Van den Heever, Pietersen, De Villiers, De Allende and Grant - it would be an entirely different kettle of fish and the rugby  midget issue would not be a factor.

On Saturday the Stormers would be wiped out by the backline fixations of Coetzee. 

Lucid

Unfortunately Steyn has become fat and slow.   An example of it was his speed on Saturday when he was at full back.   He has about the speed of a prop forward and he plays like one.   Can he overcome that deficiency?  I doubt it very much - he will have to shed about 6 to 7 kgs and spent weeks on the tredmill and track to get his speed back.  In theory it is going to be very difficult and not achievable within a short period of time.

I doubt very mucch whether Steyn would ever recover his speed and lose his fat and if he does and recover some degree of his previous performances - he would be my automatic choice - at present he is not anywhere near it and he will remain a liability at best.

Incidentally - I would suggest a joke race between Adriaan Strauss and Steyn.   The smart money would be on Strauss winning that one.  LOL

Well DomMike, one certainty is that Plum is not as stupid as you are and will have noted that Frans was the best 12 in SA after their first 2 games and that he along with the rest of the Sharks side have been average against the Kings and Brumbies.

But the most pathetic aspect regarding you and your prejudice against Frans is that one would swear Reinach, McLeod, Lambie, Jordaan, JP, Mvovo, Ndungane and Ludik had been good for the Sharks. So to point fingers at Frans is both naive and childish

Spooony

Welcome to the site.  Your first contribution is short and to the point.   Fat and slow is perhaps acceptable in the case of 12 battering rams - but then ball sense should be added - and Steyn has none.   Also off-loading capacity - again Steyn is incapable of decent/effective  off-loads in tackle situations.

And do we really needs battering rams at 12 - Lealifano and the 12's of most franchises are not battering rams but effective speedy performers with ball sense.  Is that not the answer?

Dunce Saffex

No real sense in what you write - but that is pretty normal.   I said Plumtree was not saitsfied with the backline performances in Round 3   and said clearly what is being done.   It did not work out in Round 4 and he subbed Francois Steyn despite the fact that Steyn was captain in that match.  Fact of fiction?  INDISPUTABLE  FACT.  The other subs were not really important - what was important was that the backline functioned better without Steyn.  INDISPUTABLE FACT.

Plumtree was not saisfied with Steyn in Round 5 - he subbed him again and put him at full back where he truely disgraced himself.   INDISPUTABLE FACT.

Yes - I agree with you about the Sharks backline last week.   Lambie was very good - the others did some good things when given a chance and as a rule they made their tackles.   Pietersen missed one - but Steyn missed 3 and then tried to stop making tackles as far as possible.  INDISPUTABLE FACT.  His kicking game was a joke.   Du Toit made a better relieving kick than Steyn did in the match and kicking the ball away to pass possession to the Brumbies was really a joke in bad taste.

I deduced from Plumtree's public statements and his actions during matches that he regarded that  the disfunctional element in the backline was Steyn - hence my comments as above.  I will not be surprised if Steyn gets the boot sooner rather than later.   

Mike again I catch you lying. Against the Kings, Frans coming off at 60min would have been a planned move to give Bosman game time, its a squad game.

You are blatantly lying about Frans being subbed against the Brumbies, actually I read somewhere, that you said Plum was about to sub him but then moved him to fullback because Ludik got injured - I have never read so much shit in all my life - let me guess, next you will be telling us that you were linked up to Plums walkie talkie.

Mike, here is a suggestion moving forward - stick to the facts and stop lying or treating your warped take on events as reality. Plum did say that the Sharks needed to improve their attack, that did not mean he was pointing fingers at Frans, but that he was pointing fingers at the Sharks as a whole - FACT

No back to your blatant lie. Against the Brumbies Frans moved to fullback because Ludik took a blow to the head - FACT - you can lie all you want, but be prepared to be exposed in the process

Eish, the term INDESPUTABLE FACT is thrown around generously, isn't it?

Steyn was subbed =  INDESPUTABLE FACT

Steyn was subbed because of his performance = SPECULATION/OPINION

The backline functioned better = INDESPUTABLE FACT

The backline functioned better because Steyn was moved = SPECULATION/OPINION, because there were other changes to the backline as well.

Steyn missed three tackles = UNDISPUTABLE FACT

Steyn tried to stop making tackles as far as possible = SPECULATION/OPINION.

To compare Steyn's defence with that of Pietersen in this way is outrages, because Pietersen has indeed missed 2 tackles, which is one less than Steyn. You forget to add, though that Steyn has actually made10 successful tackles as well. How many sucessful tackles did Pietersen make? Two. So the successful tackles stats for Pietersen is actually 2 out of four and that of Steyn is 10 out of 13.

Where all the substitutions made because the players were crap, or was it only Steyn who was sustituted because he was crap.

Saffex

Subbing a captain in a tight game being a planned rotation -  BULLSHIT in capital letters.   Did you see the look on Steyn's face when he left - he certainly did not know about the planned subbing.

Yes Bosman stood at the side of the field - ready to take the field at 60 minutes - at the time when Ludik got injured - I clearly saw it on TV.   If Ludik was not injured Steyn would have come off.  Clearly the case.   Would that have been another planned move?   Certainly - if Steyn disgraced himself again - which he did.

Plumtree's statement about backline improvements was followed up by the subbing of Steyn - FACT.   And the backline performed better aftr Steyn was gone FACT.   If the other players were to be blamed - would they have not been subbed ahead of Steyn??????????

Was Steyn a success at full back?  I think you said he was too slow to play there.   Is Steyn not to slow to be at 12.  He looks to me like having the speed of a prop and he plays like one as well.   LOL

What so captains are never subbed are they? Neither you or I know whether it was a planned sub against the Kings, I suspect it was.

Your take on the Frans being potentially subbed against the Brumbies is a lie. Ludik got injured, Frans moved to 15 and the average Bosman came on at 12 - end of

Saffex

Subbing of captains happen - normally very late in the game or when the captain has a slight injury - also fairly late in the game.  Not at 60 minutes when the captain can still play without unncessarily exhausting himselef ( I nearly said fit - but Steyn is the epitome of unfitness).

And yes - Bosman was standing next to the field ready to come on just before Ludick was injured.  So the injury to Ludick was not the reason for him coming on.   Without injury Ludick would have remained on and Steyn gone.  The injury did change the scenario.   Just one question?  If Steyn was acceptable at center - would he not remain there and Bosman played at full back - where you need a speedier player?

Mike stop speaking shit man. You cannot make a call on who happens to be standing on the side of the field, what a load of shit.

And no, you would never play Bosman at 15 given he has NEVER played there before. You would move Frans to 15 given he HAS played plenty of rugby at 15 and Bosman HAS played most his rugby at 12.

Shit man are you 12?

Saffex

Grow up - you yourself said that Steyn is too slow to play at full back.   Bosman has played at flyhalf and center in the past and has the necessary speed and ball sense (of which Steyn has none) to play temporarily at full back.  I would rather have played him at full back - he could not have ben worse than Steyn was in that position.   Steyn was bad in both positions and I think Plumtree tried to do what he did the week before and was really in evidence   - that is to instill improved backline functioing by disposal of Steyn at center.

Anyway - we are really argueing about nothing.  We will soon enough see whether Steyn gets the boot this week.

Only a complete idiot would play Bosman at 15 given he has never played there, when you have Frans in the side who has played plenty of rugby at 15. Especially considering Bosman plays 12 - hence me asking if you are 12, for you sound naive enough to be about 12!!

Frans is ok to cover at 15, he does not have out and out pace, so I would never consider starting him at 15. A good fullback is a quick one - Mogg and Dagg spring to mind

Saffex

Steyn having pace is really an anomoly.  The way he ran back to cover that kick near the end of the game showed the pace of a prop or worse.   He is slow and he is slow at center as well.   That is one of his problems in that position as well.

Crap, Frans kept up with JP in the pre season sprint tests for the Sharks - so bang goes that theory. He has more than enough pace for an inside centre

Clevermike you and Saffex are starting to sound like a married couple lol. I noticed you both have +- 4000 posts. I seriously hope its not mostly between the two of you..ha ha do you two even work?  The two of you really get me laughing. I give you both 10/10 for passion...

Are you guys all in a group on Superbru? If so let me join or do you think we can start one up!

mrdebbs

I have to tell you something.  Saffex and I know each other personally - so don't take our wars too seriously.   He is a lawyer working in London - originally from the Eastern Cape.   I am retired and I really enjoy needling people on this site and then laugh about their responses.    Saffex is a great Steyn admirer and I am neutral - but like to run down Steyn.   However, I also have other players I use in that campaign and you will gradually find out more - at the moment Hougaard is on the red rag to a bull list as well.

Just go to Superbru and join up like I did.  It is already very late in the competition - but you can also try and join the fantasy sport groups on Test Rugby and Foxsport sites .   IN those we are in a league called Stupidzone and    3671-4183 respectally - it is a lot of fun. 

ha ha Mike, well lets not start on that over rated Bulls player :)

Not a problem, im already on superbru but only mid table in my pool. If you guys ever do it next year set up a pool fro the Rugga forum guys!

I dont see Steyn dropped , he probably be sent to fullback. They paid too much for his contract to let him sit on the sides.