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FORUM / RUGBY /  Frans Steyn, the fourth loosie

Frans Steyn, the fourth loosie

Started by Sun-Tzu31 REPLIES501 VIEWS· 04 Mar 2014, 12:58
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ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
04 Mar 2014, 12:58
#1
04 Mar 2014, 12:58#1

Is there another 12 in the game that sends more fear into the opposition than Frans? Every game I watch I see defenders falling over themselves in groups to bring him down.  It happened with the Bulls from a lineout, he bunched up a group of defenders who panicked and completely ignored Lambie or Mvovo. The Hurricanes in their own 22 left Lambie unmarked to try and stop Frans as early as possible. It's like having another rampaging loose-forward on the park. His work on the ground is another boon. I can't help but feel that this raw power is essential to our World Cup aspirations. How often do you see anyone running over a couple of All Black forwards in succession as he did in Dunedin? I'm certain Serfontein and the impact site on his jersey would agree with me. Then there is that boot which brings so much balance at 12. Bismarck being handed the captaincy role may chip away at the need to start Jean, certainly between him and Strauss we have better leadership in my opinion - particularly Strauss, of the Juan Smith variety.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Mar 2014, 13:54
#2
04 Mar 2014, 13:54#2

Sun Tzu


Witless Hog should learn something about rugby - raw power on its own is meaningless and normally counter-productive as it was in the Hurricanes game.   You never run straight at the opposition defender if you try and play constructively like Steyn always  does. you don't lose possession and give away penalties and above all - you do not refuse to pass balls to players outside of you.   Your flowery language usage is meaningless and without content if you look at what actually happens in games..


Compare Steyn with De Allende and you see a massive difference.   They played the same opponents in succeeding weeks.   De Allende had a top game and showed massive skills - Steyn buggered up badly and was counter-productive.  That is the difference between a thinking player and a robot.


Problem was that Steyn played the game as if there were no other backline players - so he was a dead loss to the team as a whole.  

  


ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
04 Mar 2014, 14:01
#3
04 Mar 2014, 14:01#3
Different game, different strategy. If you want to talk of anything, why not list the exact time stamps of every occasion Frans failed to pass to a team-mate in a better position than himself. I dare you, but then you prefer the numbers outside of context because there is more room for deceit. You are as biased as Spiro and seemingly just as pro-Bok.

De Allende is just an average centre at his best. Frans is one of only three or four test quality centres we've produced in roughly t wenty four years.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Mar 2014, 14:13
#4
04 Mar 2014, 14:13#4

 Sun Tzu


That is utter BS again.  Steyn had plenty opportunities to pass the ball to other players - at least 10 of the 11 cases where he was ball hogging.  He was a test center in 2012 and failed badly as well.   Did the same things he did against the Hurricanes and was equally unsuccessful.     


And you are talking BS about De Allende as well - he will always outplay Steyn because he is a thinking player - not a robot.    One of the best centers we have produced for years. 


Your heading is instructive though - but unfortunately  misleding.   We have Alberts masquerading as a loosie - he is a half-backed lock-prop.   So we have two loosies.   Add to that a third loosie in Steyn - a loosie aswuerafibf as a center.


That leaves us with a funny team comprising


 *   3 locks/props

 *   3 loosies

 *   1 center


Don't think that r eally can work - now do you?    

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
04 Mar 2014, 14:59
#5
04 Mar 2014, 14:59#5
 "Steyn had plenty opportunities to pass the ball to other players - at least 10 of the 11 cases where he was ball hogging."

Then it will be quite simple for you to provide the time stamps, won't it? It's put your money where you mouth is time Michael.

"And you are talking BS about De Allende as well - he will always outplay Steyn because he is a thinking player."

There's that always again. Quite funny given how he has done nothing of note as of yet. Just like Goosen whom you stated is always this that and the other thing. Look how much egg that got you, but you have to never-learn the hard way. Trying to educate you is like trying to squeeze an elephant into a thimble.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Mar 2014, 15:12
#6
04 Mar 2014, 15:12#6

 Sun Tzu


After watching the gam a second time - I gave a detailed breakdown of what happened exactly every time Steyn touched the ball -  giving the exact time when every occurrence happened.   It was precise and made clear also the consequences. 


I am not going to do it again - you can recover the thread and have a look at it. 


I stick to facts - no fiction and skyscrapers - so no egg on my face.   Yjay isd reserved for the fiction writers and biased.

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
06 Mar 2014, 12:55
#7
06 Mar 2014, 12:55#7
I missed that information, if you would be kind enough to repost it I will observe and screen it.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Mar 2014, 13:34
#8
06 Mar 2014, 13:34#8
 Sun Tzu
I do not know how to recover previous threads that has gone of the list - maybe Mozart can help with it.
Listen I really have no problem with Steyn - other than with his ball distribution.  He occasionally make very good decisions - but those are very rare - most of his decisions mentioned by another member of Sharksworld - not myself - are bizarre and consequently problematic. 
He also have from time to time problems in defence - an old deficiency  going back to the WC final in 2007.
I cannot see him as a Springbok center - but on Sharks level he is adequate.          
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
06 Mar 2014, 13:39
#9
06 Mar 2014, 13:39#9
That break by Tate was everything to do about the individual brilliance Tate far more than any deficiencies from Steyn on defence. Frans has always been a trojan on defence. Pointing to a one off incident proves nothing. Os Du Randt got bounced in one tackle in the Lions tour, is he an inherently bad defender? Frans isn't only test material, but the best Bok 12 of the modern era without anyone coming close to him.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Mar 2014, 16:01
#10
06 Mar 2014, 16:01#10
Sun Tzu
The Tate  tackle was not he only tackle Steyn missed that day - what about the other three misses.
Even against the Hurricanes two weeks ago he missed 2 tackles he should have made.
Defence is definitely not Steyn's strong suit,  Last year he missed more than 20% of all attempted tackles and indications are the same in the two matches played this far.

AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
06 Mar 2014, 23:11
#11
06 Mar 2014, 23:11#11
 Sun-Tzu.....I agree with your last comment.
Frans Steyn has got everything required for the #12 position and more.
Him and JJ are the centers for the Boks and Bismark as captain, Sorry no more room for JDV.
Do you for one minute think that the Sharks and SARU would renew his contract if they did not see his potential and game play.
Thankfully clevermike is in the same position as me....we are not the selectors who count.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Mar 2014, 23:44
#12
06 Mar 2014, 23:44#12
 Tzu, you sure as hell has got the hots for Fransie. He's already married dude. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2014, 05:34
#13
07 Mar 2014, 05:34#13
DDdraad
Steyn lacks a number of requirements before he can even be considered for Springbok selection.  Those include -
*   a reasonable passing game;*   the ability to read games properly and take proper decisions;*   the tendency to be robotic;*   him running straight at defenders and consequential inability to create any space for players;*   persistent proven problems with defense,
He has the physical abilities required - but NOT the mental abilities needed to be a really successful no 12 - matter of fact when he did play there for the Springboks in 2012 he was a major contributor to the dead backline syndrome that paralyzed the Springbok backline performances that year.        
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
07 Mar 2014, 09:37
#14
07 Mar 2014, 09:37#14
 Mike, IMHO I rather see Fransie as a fullback for the boks. His best games for the Boks were there. I don't like him at 12, never did. Te s uinig.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
07 Mar 2014, 13:04
#15
07 Mar 2014, 13:04#15
His best games were at 12, then he had good gmes at wing. At fullback? He did very little if anything. His worst defensive stats are all at fullback, even worse than outside centre! His best performances have always been at 12, he single-handedly sparked our World Cup campaign in 2007 and the Boks looked much better in the 2011 World Cup when he was at 12. Lets look at what he brings:

  1. Bone jarring defence.
  2. A solid offloading game.
  3. Strong carries in the mold of Alberts, running over locks, props and loosies like they were Adi Jacobs. 
  4. A booming boot.
  5. A long, accurate pass off both hands.
  6. Excellent decision making
  7. Operates strongly on the ground as a fourth roving loosie.
  8. His communication and leadership.
  9. He is of a few players who has that elusive quality. Those intangibles that separate legends from mere mortals.


There is no question about it, Frans is the most complete 12 South Africa have ever produced bar none! Every brilliant coach and player acknowledges him. All Black legend Andrew Mehrtens had only the best of praise for him. To question Frans shows a complete lack of understanding for the position.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2014, 14:50
#16
07 Mar 2014, 14:50#16
Sun Tzu
Are you really that dim to wrote such a load of unproven crap?
  1. Bone jarring defence.
  2. A solid offloading game.
  3. Strong carries in the mold of Alberts, running over locks, props and loosies like they were Adi Jacobs. 
  4. A booming boot.
  5. A long, accurate pass off both hands.
  6. Excellent decision making
  7. Operates strongly on the ground as a fourth roving loosie.
  8. His communication and leadership.
  9. He is of a few players who has that elusive quality. Those intangibles that separate legends from mere mortals

Lets analise the above crap a bit 
Bone jarring defence
What is bone-jarring when you make a tackle and the opposition retain possession.   Steyn's tackles are not bone-jarring - they are bog-ordinary.   A solid defending center does NOT MISS as many attempted tackles as he does.   CRAP FLOWERY LANGUAGE WITHOUT ANY SUBSTANCE.
A solid off-liading game
These so-called off-loads are always ineffective - since he does not create space nor off-load anything in tackle situations.   His off-loads are tricky - since he ,erely thows the ball back and hpe somebody would be there to recover them.
Strong carries in the mold of Alberts, running over locks, props and loosies like they were Adi Jacobs.

Are you day dreaming?   If that ever happened it was never recorded,   His ball carries rarely entails beating even a single defender - nothing like running over anybody.   Have seen many games in which Steyn played - and the above has NEVER happened - happy day dreaming to you.
A booming boot
Are you referring here to his line and strategic kicking?  He has not converted anything since 2012 and is totally unreliable when he kicks at goal.   His booming boot is no real asset - since positive results from his kicking is rare.  One of the only examples of a good kick was in the recent game between the Bulls and the  Sharks.  
A long accurate pass off both hands

Come now - don't just write - quote examples.  I have seen nothing of the kind for years.   Just plain myth-writing I am afraid.  There is no way in which Steyn's ball distribution can even remotely be described as satisfactory.   His passing game of lack of it is one of Steyn's worse deficiencies.
Escellent decision making
If decision making entail the idea to put the ball under an arm and charge directly at the first defender - then he has it.   However, that is not decision making - it is the antithesis of the words  I gave never ever in the past two years seen any positive - matter of fact two cases in the Brumbies game in 2012 indicates the exact opposite.   I have over the past two years never seen a single case of decision making - other than the kick mentioned previously -  led to anything positive for his side.   He does not know when to pass and when to kick - but he knows very well to hug  balls and not pass it to anyone.
I still swear at what he did in the recent Hurricanes match - the worst example of ball hogging I have ever seen from any back line player.  I was again upset by some stats mentioned earlier today before the Hurricanes game.  Despite the fact that Witless Hog never once passing a ball to Jordaan in the latest game - he is still after Folau the backline player who made the second most backline breaking moves.   Just think what could have happened if Witless Hog did not decided unthinkingly put every ball he received under his one arm and charge straight  at the first defender,     Operates strongly on the ground as a fourth roving loosie  
Just one thing - if we need a loosie - Steyn is not needed.  You make out a strong case for Steyn on the basis that he is our fourth loosie.   Then he mist play as a loosie - not masquerading .        as a center.   
Leadership qualities 
Steyn was made captain of the Sharks last year and he made a mess of it.  No eividence at all of such qualities.      
He is of a few players who has that elusive quality. Those intangibles that separate legends from mere mortals

Heaven only knows what you meant here
SUMMARY
You must have spent a whole morning with your dictionary to find high-sounding phrases devoid of fact - to write the most amazing praise song I hav ever seen being used in respect of a big  ordinary player  with some real deficiencies in his performance.   How did you manage to think up all the rubbish you came ip here with?  
 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
07 Mar 2014, 15:28
#17
07 Mar 2014, 15:28#17
Okay, I think I see the problem here. Sun Tzwat clearly gets quite excited at the mere mention of Fransie Steyn and he's made a few typos that have confused the issue. Let me try and help out here:


When Sun Tzwat says "bone jarring" he clearly means "boner inducing".

When Sun Tzwat talks about "offloading" he's talking about what he's currently doing all over the semen-encrusted Frans Steyn poster he has above his bed.

He says Fransie has a "booming boot" but I suspect he meant to say Fransie has a "beautiful butt".

When he says Fransie "operates strongly on the ground", he means to say he'd like to be on the ground with Fransie "operating" above him.

The last bit about intangibles separating legends from mortals is a bit obscure but it's probably Sun Tzwat's way of saying that he's like to bear Fransie's children.

Hope that clears up some of the confusion.

Oh and Sun Tzwat, there's no need to thank me for translating your love-struck gibberish, I live to give.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
07 Mar 2014, 15:40
#18
07 Mar 2014, 15:40#18
Rooineck this is a rugby forum, not a gay chat site. Are you sure you are in the right place? 
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
07 Mar 2014, 15:49
#19
07 Mar 2014, 15:49#19
 I agree that Steyn is an extra loose forward, if you look at the games his played this season you will notice the off the ball work he does. The man is an extra forward, he regularly hit the rucks to clear out players. 
Yes he does tuck the ball from time to time, might be the game plan as the condition in Durban doesn't always allow for a passing game. The TV also fails to show whether a team has numbers out wide. 
It would be helpful if the SS showed player positions with a better camera angle or just flash up a graphic that shows you how the line up. That way you can tell if a players is not getting his outside backs into the game.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
07 Mar 2014, 20:29
#20
07 Mar 2014, 20:29#20
Kingcorn
I watched the Sharks game twice and made careful notes as to what Steyn was doing
during that match.  Every time he got the ball from standard back line play he did the same thing - put the ball under his left arm and charge straight at the first defender with very little positive and substantial negatives attached to it.
In some way he carried the ball the same way Marcell Coetzee did.   If that is what is required from a center - then I do not know why we just not recycle one of our better loosies - who knows how to pass balls - to the center position.
In every case when Steyn got the ball in standard back line play he never once considered to pass the ball to anyone outside of him - he passed the ball once to Marais from broken play - when he was about to be tackled and Marais in fact was in s worse position than he was.
I think White was upset about the issue and mentioned after the game in general comments that the passing game of the Sharks was problematic.  We will see tomorrow whether Steyn did the same as he did in the Hurricanes game - but I always have a problem with him - he is and never was a good ball distributor - so what is  likely is that it will be much of the same unimaginative  and fruitless play all the time.          
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
08 Mar 2014, 11:52
#21
08 Mar 2014, 11:52#21
 How many games did Fransie play against the AB's and Ozz. What was the numbers on his back in those games. He's best game for the Boks at 12 was against... wait for it... yesssss!!!! The mighty Fiji. The prosecution rest.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
08 Mar 2014, 12:57
#22
08 Mar 2014, 12:57#22
Or against Samoa in the same tournmanent where we were on the cusp of losing. Turned that game right around from second 1 and on our own tryline! Whichever way you look at it, Frans is our best 12. Who are the alternatives? No other 12 in my lifetime, in South Africa, could pass well or even offer an offload. Then you consider that he hits contact situations like a giant lock or loose forward. It routinely takes two or three defenders to stop him! That's unheard of for a centre. The opposition cover him like he was Du Randt, Alberts, Spies, Beast, Collins, Chabal, Bakkies. That in and of itself creates lots of space, because it creates fear that he will breach the gainline at will. Jake has been using that to free up Mvovo and Jordaan. Keep hiding your head in the sand, it's no worry to me.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:03
#23
08 Mar 2014, 13:03#23
 Samoa, wow! Jean has yet to be bested by Fransie. Conveniantly you have nothing to say about Steyns performance at 15 in 2009, where the boks played their best rugby since Carel/Nick' s team reaked havok back in ghe day.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:16
#24
08 Mar 2014, 13:16#24
After watching this mornings game between the Crusaders and the Stormers I am absolutely convinced that there is no way that Francois Steyn is not third in line or lower down for the no 12 position.   The center combination this morning was star quality and there is no way in the world that the unthinking, pedantic and robotic Francois Steyn should be in the team ahead of De Allende.
This is the third game in a row where De Allende was really a quality player.  Steyn was good in the first game and real shit in the second one.  He'll have to play way ahead of his normal performance to be even close.     
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:17
#25
08 Mar 2014, 13:17#25
Neglected? I inferred his weaker defensive stats. The quality of rugby was not very good. The one and only difference between 2009 and 2010 was Brussow's domination at the breakdown. The best all-round rugby by the Boks in the modern era - in order - are 2007, 2004, 2013, 1998, 2005, 2009, 2012. Nothing more, nothing less. Jean has never been able to match Frans, his only weaon being the intercept, but as we saw at Ellis Park last year it can cost the Boks severely. Jean has been protected to a large degree because of the obsession of finding the perfect 10; nobody has noticed much how Jean holds the Boks back. Mr.Dies-with-the-ball is at best good on defence. It's no surprise how the Boks attack fizzled out after Jake had to drop Barry - he was passed his best. You neglect to mention that, or how Peter Dom Villiers gave up on Jean in the end. How much better the Boks have been each and every time Frans has replaced Jean. Neigh, you point out 2009 with Frans at 15, yet from 10-15 the Boks offered zip. I think their most used play was 9 to 12 with 11 cleaning the ensuing ruck. Next 9-7, 9-8, 9 with a high ball. Fransies boot never accounted for much at all either. In the end Frans finished up his time at 15 with inferior defensive stats to Aplon and Kirchner and with nothing on attack, which is also inferior to Aplon and Kirchner - even Jantjes and to some degree Lambie! You live in a dreamland Draad. I see you also use the smoke and mirrors tactics Michael. A sure sign someone is wrong. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:22
#26
08 Mar 2014, 13:22#26
 Steyn may have had some positives up to 2009 - but since his return from France he was shit poor in virtually all the games he played in - end of story.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:22
#27
08 Mar 2014, 13:22#27
 duplicated
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:27
#28
08 Mar 2014, 13:27#28
 Incorrect Michael, but you have been debunked endlessly. Duplication maketh it not the truth. D amnant quodnon intelligunt.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Mar 2014, 13:46
#29
08 Mar 2014, 13:46#29
Sun Tzu
I read your latest pipe dream and want to ask you one thing?   What are you smoking - it must be really powerful staff to hallucinate like that.   Steyn has never done anything really positive since 2012 and like in the Hurricanes game he was absolutely thoughtless and robotic with zero benefits for the team, more often liabilities in fact.
Him together with Morne was in 2012 absolute poison insofar as backline play in the tests where Morne played with Witless Hog next to him was concerned.  Combined the two of them absolutely slaughtered the backline.  It as only after these two thoughtless dummies were  out of contention that the backline started functioning properly - viz the Pretoria test against Australia.
Despite Morne the backline was better this year - the real difference was Le Roux - Morne was just Morne - an average flyhalf at best - clueless about what to do without being told in advance.   His decision making was poor shit and we were lucky not to have the dreadful Steyn's together in the same team last year.    
You are obviously a joker to write what you did.   I hope you are - because if you are serious about what you write - you must be the dimmest rugby spectator ever.
          
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
08 Mar 2014, 14:35
#30
08 Mar 2014, 14:35#30
". . . because if you are serious about what you write - you must be the dimmest rugby spectator ever."
Many a true word is spoken in jest. 
Sun Tzwat is indeed one of the dimmest rugby spectators I've ever encountered . . . certainly among the dimmest on this forum. He's right up there with Baboon-ou and Sharktwat.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
08 Mar 2014, 15:28
#31
08 Mar 2014, 15:28#31
 Rooitwit you talk about being dim but you shed no light at all. 
Bwahahahahahaha

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
08 Mar 2014, 20:23
#32
08 Mar 2014, 20:23#32
 Fransies boot won us the 2009 TN. Yes it was a team effort, but he brought the extra bit to clinch it. And he was at 15. You can not compare performances at 12 if he ayed Samoa and Fiji. It's not even close to facing  NZ and Ozz. I'm not saying he won't be able to do it, but up till now he hasn't proven anything at 12. He did though at 15.
— END OF THREAD —

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