G'day Bokke

Hey, the names Eric. A All Black supporter. I was having a discussion with my old man about the Books of old and what he thought wasntje worst Book team/era, both of us couldn't think of a time when the Springboks looked so down on their luck. In had a look at the past few coaches to see what I could see and figure where your current coach's team places generally, it was pretty interesting too. Basically I wanted to have a look at their performance against the number one team in all of sports (the All Blacks ??) becuase games against them are the benchmark for greatness. Added to that we have had a rivalry for decades, though I haven't really felt it much in my lifetime. Here's what I found.

CONCEDING

4 Years of White: 3-5-9-5 (22 tries in 9 tests)

4 Years of Peter: 5-4-11-7 (27 tries in 11 tests)

4 Years of Meyer: 6-9-4-5 (24 tries in 8 tests)

4 Tests of Alistair: 15-11 (26 tries in 4 tests)

SCORING

4 Years of Jake: 8-4-7-2 (21 tries in 9 tests)

4 Years of Peter: 3-5-3-1 (12 tries in 11 tests)

4 Years of Meyer: 2-6-4-2 (14 tries in 8 tests)

4 Tests of Alistair: 1-3 (4 tries in 4 tests)

Next, breakdown of try stats.

JAKE WHITE

4 Tries Scored: 1 (5 once)

3 Tries Scored: 3 

2 Tries Scored: 3

1 Tries Scored: 1

0 Tries Scored: 1 (3rd/4th string team away)

4 Tries Conceded: 2 (5 once)

3 Tries Conceded: 1

2 Tries Conceded: 4

1 Tries Conceded: 2

0 Tries Conceded: 0

Outscored NZ: 2

Tied NZ: 4

Nilled: 0

PETER DE VILLIERS

4 Tries Scored: 0

3 Tries Scored: 0

2 Tries Scored: 3

1 Tries Scored: 3

0 Tries Scored: 2

4 Tries Conceded: 3 (6 once)

3 Tries Conceded: 2 

2 Tries Conceded: 1

1 Tries Conceded: 5

0 Tries Conceded: 0

Outscored NZ: 2

Tied NZ: 1

Nilled: 1

HEYNEKE MEYER

4 Tries Scored: 1

3 Tries Scored: 1

2 Tries Scored: 1

1 Tries Scored: 3

0 Tries Scored: 1

4 Tries Conceded: 3 (5 once)

3 Tries Conceded: 2

2 Tries Conceded: 2

1 Tries Conceded: 1

0 Tries Conceded: 0

Outscored NZ: 0

Tied NZ: 2

Nilled: 0

ALLISTAIR COETZEE

4 Tries Scored: 0

3 Tries Scored: 1 

2 Tries Scored: 0

1 Tries Scored: 1

0 Tries Scored: 2

4 Tries Conceded: 3 (6/9/8 once apiece)

3 Tries Conceded: 1

2 Tries Conceded: 0

1 Tries Conceded: 0

0 Tries Conceded: 0

Outscored NZ: 0

Tied NZ: 1

Nilled: 1

Lots of digging there! On the face if it Jake was more competitive which surprised me because I remember he was really hated and then fired for winning the World Cup. Shame he never got to enjoy the team he put together who knows what else he might have achieved. Peter's results sugge a modest first season a great two thirds of a season two and then fell off a cliff. Heyneke was patchy but at times more competitive. There was that red card game which affected the result some and the Ellis Park frantic game the same year. Alistair team looks totally stuffed! I know quotas are a bit of an issue but I really don't see that being the biggest thing. Alistair is one of the most experienced and successful South African coaches over a really long time so maybe the players have to be questioned at least a little, but either way they were molested easily (excuse the expression ??). What do you think them?? Much what you already thought? Where to next? There was strong push to oust Meyer so that obviously didn't work, is sacking Alaistair really the solution? Who else is there? Not the Bulls coach who won those Super seasons? Can't think of anyone else really. I suppose just have to grind through it until the next gen get a little better?? 

PS. I had to laugh at the moral victory this year. Losing to the mighty Kiwis is seen as a vixtory!!!! ??????????????

Seriously though, would be good to have you guys back again. Chin up and brave, the Roboks may learn how to use that ball some day ??

Eric 

Welcome Eric, there are a few of us kiwis on this forum. You will recognize us as we are the only ones who make sense, ha ha.

Yes, the Boks are down on their luck & their recent performance is pretty poor. I read an article recently that stated that their tight five is still their strength and that come RWC time they will resort to type and build everything around the tight five, i.e. back to White era rugby. It wouldn't surprise me & if you listen to Mozart this is necessary and bound to happen. 

I for one want to see the old rivalry come back to life but with kiwis ultimately winning.

Good points, not sure how Jones would have gone down because he is a lot like Jake, likes to do it his way or not at all. From what I have been hearing In don't think South Africans really know what the want. Is it all out attack or something more like New Zealand? Jones likes heavily structured rugby where he says the players think less and become more effective because they aren't overloaded with decisions. On the other side you have Campese who likes less structure and more player power. He actually coached in South Africa at some point so maybe that might be a better bet? The kind of game I hear fans call for is more like 80s Mark Ella Wallaby rugby. Either way though it has to be trained properly at youth level which ever route you go. The Roboks look hesitant to me and we see a lot of errors because of that. Its like the don't really know what is in front of them and what to about it. If you look at the mighty All Blacks you'll see we use our forwards a lot more ball in hand than any other team by a really long way. It gives us width. Boks use their forwards just to bash and when they try to spread them out their handling and mobility is really weak. Since ELVs the name of the game is use forwards as a screen and the All Black pods work like another midfield. I think a few tweaks here and there will bring the Boks closer to that ideal, but the idea of playing flat Aussie ball is just not happening at all! Coeyzee is an old school guy I think who is trying to get the Boks playing wider but he always relied on great centres and nobody really stands out now. I don't want to say the players are useless and they aren't really experienced as well, that's why I said maybe in a couple of seasons the player pool will stabilize. But if quotas are put in place that is a bit of a spannermin the works. Man you guys really complicate the simple things! Best of luck

PS. My emojis in my first post didn't come out, all are question marks :/  

Hey there! They need us to lead them to the light

About their tight five, has there ever been a less scary Bok pack? If they think that's their trump card then they in for a rude awakening. Their backrow is good, then the hooker and the back three. Centres and halfbacks are awful, at least what I saw (haven't watched all their games).

Welcome Eric. 

Alistair is one of the most experienced and successful South African coaches over a really long time 

About their tight five, has there ever been a less scary Bok pack? If they think that's their trump card then they in for a rude awakening. Their backrow is good, then the hooker and the back three. Centres and halfbacks are awful, at least what I saw (haven't watched all their games).

Alas we welcome another ignorant kiwi! Man you have to be a first class loon to make comments like the above. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha these kiwis are real comics! One more ignorant kiwi to school!!

G'day Rooinek 

Eric the Red

It is indeed a pleasure to welcome you to the site.   You have submitted a very well-reasoned item in this case and  there is much that I agree with.  

One has to reconsider the whole present scenario iro SA Rugby.   The problems are really serious and there are both extraneous  and internal reasons for it.

Extraneous Reasons   

South Africa must be the only major rugby-playing country in the world where racial profiling is used as a criterium for selection.   This despite the fact that –

*    the game is basically played by the White and Coloured race groups with very limited number of the Black majority in SA; and

*    the provision of sporting facilities and sport development programmes at most schools in SA is virtually non-existent and the development of sport is basically left to less than 50 SA schools.

The situation is worsened by the fact that bribery and corruption has cost SA in the vicinity of R500 billion Rand.   That money should have done wonders for economic development , education and sport development in SA,   The ANC government is in serious trouble as a result and they now have only one weapon left in their fight for survival and that is using the race–card on the same basis that happened to Mugabe.

Internal  Problems  

Here  we have some major problems and the most important is the appointment of incompetent coaches with very little ability in deciding on game  plans and selection of players already effected  by the racial profiling issue.

You mention all of White, De Villiers, Meyer and  Coetzee in your above posting.   All the above coaches have serious deficiencies in their make-up,   I agree with you that White was the best of the four – although he also have his own deficiency (namely absent backline coaching),   The other four I give a ratings as follows:

De Villiers      -     1/10

Meyer            -     1/10

Coetzee         -    -3/10

The problem is exasperated by seriously poor selections and the absence of a game plan cause teams to take the field totally unprepared for games.   The main problem is with backline players and loosie selections .   

The only solution here is that we find a good NZ coach to take over the coaching roll in SA and we can only hope that the racial profiling  story would be eliminated in the 2019 national  elections    It is really a long term recovery plan that needs   to be started asap and will take years to realize.     

Dec 08, 2017, 13:20

G'day Rooinek 

Lol A1, can't be now, can it?

... Welcome to the Jerry Springer Show REd...you'll have to excuse some of our yarpy friends ...try not to sympathise with them too much as we don't want to make them any softer than they already are...

Red Reed be nice to my good friend Brycy he doesn't know a lot about rugby or anything really but he tries!

Kia Ora Eric !

An epic saga to go with that moniker eh ? 

Cheers mate !

Mozart, for the ABs what repeats is the thrashing we give the Boks on those occasions when we don't take pity on them.

Just caught a 3 meter python in my laundry ,he had just eaten too !

Used my crutches to pin him while I grabbed his tail ,bugger did nt want to let go of the pipes .

Sent him on his way unharmed.

The python tried to swallow Ward ad, until it got sat on and squashed

Hey Mikey, yeah there's poor development in SA. But 500bil?? Thats insane! No wonder your best teams are bankrupt. Its just nuts to think people can get away with blatant thievery on that scale... repeatedly! In think you're being a bit harsh on those coach's apart from Alistair. I mean Peter did have one of the best periods in your rugby history, even if he did run out of ideas the last two years that has to count for more than just 1! And Meyer kept the Boks at 2 for a good while. Was unbeaten by every side for over 2 years apart from The Invincibles . And in hindsight maybe he wasn't that bad seeing as the player pool is very weak right now.

It's crazy to think that under Jake the Boks almost never lost at home. Three home victories against NZ and 2 losses, and a loss to the French. I think that was about it. Going over the stats In couldn't see anything that justified so much criticism. 

I'm trying to think of a positive for Alistair but I jus can't think of anything. When players dont know where the should be standing on breakdown defence (the most important defensive scenario given there are over a hundred rucks a game) it really smacks of laziness and oversight. Hard to imagine this is the guy who coached such a strong Stormers side for so many years! 

I think a Kiwi coach would be good but I question why South Africans would want one. Is it because you see NZ winning and feel the association will make all the problems going away? Or because you actually want to do things differently? Our coach's are great, but its the system that's even better. Will South Africa want a system wide change is the puzzler. We prep our players differently and each coach at national level inherets the same blueprint. Each Bok coach is new start trying to build something different. Meyer spoke about implementing the same system at all levels and I think he understood the way NZ do things but as far as I remember nothing was done about it. Some of that half a trillion rand could have at least done a little ??

Hi Wardad, the names jus in reference to my mop of hair. Looks like a big rug! ??

I suspect the python starved though it was turned down ou warped DUD as a meal!

But 500bil?? Thats insane!  Red Reed got that one right - ou maaaaaikie definitely suffering from alcohol induced derangement! Ou maaaikie the various fruit juices, grapetisers appletisers produced here in the C ape I strongly recommend to you!