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Goosen....Brittle or Brutal?

Started by ForeverArizona30 REPLIES3,046 VIEWS· 11 Jan 2014, 19:25
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FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
11 Jan 2014, 19:25
#1
11 Jan 2014, 19:25#1

I really hope this kid has an injury free season this year and gets a good few runs in.with JW playing Lambie solidly at ten for the Sharks I can honestly see that if he picks up form that Morne might enjoy the golden hand shake from the Bulls and from the Bokke.Yes its time we cut out Morne ties people.Investment is always at risk with great loss and the prospects look fairly dimm.Goosen for one can hardly play tennis with out dislocating...well...every possible joint that can be dislocated in the human boddy.I say that with good humar.Man but did he have a good run against Australia in 2012,only to go home in a taxis with disco lights.

 

But be warned Nzl,this kid has something special.Naas was a great flyhalf and set a standard hence people know him that well today.This kid might just set a new standard.

I know I truly hope so.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Jan 2014, 09:06
#2
12 Jan 2014, 09:06#2
 Fear of his fragility could b eway over stated. He was under 19 when he played for the Boks. I am sure a lot of conditioning has taken pla ce.As to talent no doubt about it being there in abundance
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jan 2014, 11:20
#3
12 Jan 2014, 11:20#3

Goosen basically over the last two years had three major injuries - the one to his shoulder and the other two to his knees.


There has been no indication that the shoulder injury recurred since him scoring a try and falling awkwardly in the process. 


The knee injuries both stemmed from rather freaky situations. the Soweto test one stemmed from ball  rolling towards him and Reid trying to fall on the  ball sliding against Goosen's leg.  The second injury was medically not related to the same problem and came as a result of him slipping badly when practicing kicking at goal - ie not in a match situation at all.


I think that it is rather weird - but Jordaan also suffered a knee injury when training on the same ground so it might be the surface of the training ground that caused the problem.


Be it as it may - since the injuries were of a different nature and occurred under some weird conditions I am not convinced that Goosen is really frail.   I would think that he was desperately unlucky rather than injury prone.   Like Beeno I think he was very young when the injuries occurred and that strengthening of his muscles through conditioning would solve any problem that may exist .   


I am looking forward to his performances this year and hope that he shows us some real class as he promised when he was an Under 20 player.         

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
12 Jan 2014, 14:17
#4
12 Jan 2014, 14:17#4
 Agree Mike, I also think Naka over played him and hopefully he realises he must manage Goosen very carefully.Goosen showed before injury great temprement and ability and again one trusts these injuries leave no scars. He should be playing behind a fairly good pack so that will help.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Jan 2014, 16:38
#5
12 Jan 2014, 16:38#5
To me he seemed rather Gaffie like in the NZ test before he was hurt. It might help his confidence not to start out as the goal kicker....that's how Jantjies was nursed back from the brink last year.   
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:14
#6
12 Jan 2014, 17:14#6
I'll say it again, Goosen has no future as a flyhalf. in every way he is better suited to fullback. He will follow the same route as others before him, namely Gaffie, Fransie, Monty, Brent, Lambie, Jaco in that they were all - Francois exempted, though he could play 15 - fullbacks forced into being fly halves. He was weak on defence during 2012's Super XV campaign and New Zealand went straight for him; Goosen along with Taute being the route New Zealand used to unhinge us at home that year - and we were dominating them up to that point! Something to take note of. Goosen, being the archetypal ectomorph, has zero physical presence. In fact, it was quite a sobering experience watching Jantjies of all people shoring up his channel after replacing Goosen. The signs are there, hidden in plain sight. All one is to do is look. Look to see, lest we see a repeat of the Lambie story. Long stringing muscle, slight of frame, great turn of speed... Goosen, the ectomorph is perfectly suited to the back three. It's destined by his physiology and I see he has the mentality to thrive in the position. Make note that the Cheetahs backline success has little to do with Goosen. It's down to their genius backline coach. They play just as well no matter who they have had at 10, it's been that way for years now. But note the improved defence with Goosen out and Robert at 12. That's an ominous sign for the Goosen groupies.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:22
#7
12 Jan 2014, 17:22#7
injuries and WADA  are goosens biggest worries.

goosens inability to survive the physical challenges of top level are why im favouring lambie over him at the moment.

if goosen can get on top of the frailties which IMO are a very real concern, then no doubt hes one who can seriously do some damage with all that xfactor potential hes posses.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:22
#8
12 Jan 2014, 17:22#8
injuries and WADA  are goosens biggest worries.

goosens inability to survive the physical challenges of top level are why im favouring lambie over him at the moment.

if goosen can get on top of the frailties which IMO are a very real concern, then no doubt hes one who can seriously do some damage with all that xfactor potential hes posses.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:30
#9
12 Jan 2014, 17:30#9
 X-factor; the siren call that led many a coach and player to their doom. If only it were so simple as a solitary player fighting the battle alone and coming out on top. Have we not noted Quade Cooper? Is Goosen more skillful than Cooper? Definitely not, yet Cooper plays his best rugby when he does less and merely plays as the link that he should be. This isn't eighties rugby. Defences eat up tens who do it all on their own. It just isn't how modern rugby is played and will never be successful. In Morné we have everything we need. He has consistently outshone these pretenders. His record speaks for itself.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:42
#10
12 Jan 2014, 17:42#10
Sun you really have some warped rugby ideas - and not in a positive way. Goosen a fullback, what rubbish.

He is our best 10 prospect since readmission. If he stays injury free, the Bok 10 jersey will be his for many years.

Any question marks against him against NZ are misplaced given he played that game with an injury he picked up in the Oz game the week before. Goosen was limping early in that NZ game, but I suspect Meyer was desperate to play him
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:49
#11
12 Jan 2014, 17:49#11
Sun has real insights Dave....he sees beyond the predictable media hype. Even though his view here is very radical, I suspect he is comp letely right.
ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
12 Jan 2014, 17:50
#12
12 Jan 2014, 17:50#12
 If he is our best 10 prospect, then why the blowout against New Zealand? Why the Cheetahs looking more solid without him? Are his weak defensive showings at Super level not important? I saw nothing of Goosen limping early in the New Zealand test, rather I saw brittle nerves hiding inside a brittle shell. Taute and Goosen blew that test, yet more excuses. Poor form and poor character in excusing the errancy of Le Roux at 15 and now Goosen. Bias, plain and simple. If you wish to back Goosen, then that is your business, but there is no evidence to sway my decision in joining you, not yet anyway.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Jan 2014, 18:02
#13
12 Jan 2014, 18:02#13
Blow out against NZ, what complete rubbish.......why because he missed the odd kick?

But more to the point, Goosen was injured against NZ

Yeah right Moz, Sun has it right about Goosen being a fullback........that is the biggest load of shit I have read in ages.

Much like the Cheetahs being better with Watts at 10.......I could not make this shit up



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jan 2014, 19:26
#14
12 Jan 2014, 19:26#14

Saffex


You must remember that both Sun Tzu and Mozart thinks hat Morne Steyn is the  best flyhalf in SA. When Morne buggers up - no problem - like he did in the last 3 tests heplayed in against the All Blacks. 


Goosen had only circa 40 minutes playing time against the All Blacks, namely -


*   for circa 20 minutes in the Dunedin test in 2012 - where he was a huge improvement on the rubbish display of Steyn, whom he replaced; and


*   for circa 29 minutes in the Soweto test before he got injured.  


He still had a heel problem which affected his kicking at goal - but for the rest there was no problem with his performance in that 20 minutes.

  

It really is funny - the few games he played in Goosen was ten times better than Morne was against the same teams.   I would like to remind the two of the fiasco in the away Aussie test in 2012, where Morne was the main reason for the loss, as against the Pretoria test against the Aussies where Goosen was the flyhalf.       

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Jan 2014, 19:31
#15
12 Jan 2014, 19:31#15

 Sun Tzu


Who has been consistently the weakest defending flyhalf in SA?   The answer is Morne Steyn - not the players you are referring to.


At least some of he players you mentioned had ball sense - Morne has NONE.


And then you talk about groupies - are you not in the Morne Steyn groupie?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Jan 2014, 20:03
#16
12 Jan 2014, 20:03#16
One has to ask the question, if its not going to be Goosen or Lambie at 10 for the Boks then who the hell will it be? 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,297 posts
12 Jan 2014, 20:11
#17
12 Jan 2014, 20:11#17
Any top quality flyhalf could also be good at fullback, although their is absolutely no point in playing Goosen at 15. 
Goosen has the speed of a wing, the passing skills of a scrumhalf and can kick the ball probably further than any flyhalf in the world.
The media in NewZealand were calling him in the next Dan Carter when the Cheetas were on tour. He does not really have any weaknesses i n his game except for being injury prone. His defence might not be great but he is still a kid so sure to get more strength.
Goosen is the best Bok flyhalf since re-admission and it would be a pity if he does not get a good run to prove he is one of the best flyhalfs in the world, if not the best. 
Given that South Africa usually do not have that much depth at flyhalf we need him. SA tends to either have running or kicking flyhalfs, rarely an allrounder like Goosen. Timo Swiel is another potential bok flyhalf in the making. It would be great to have these 2 competing for the Bok 10 spot. 


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
12 Jan 2014, 20:22
#18
12 Jan 2014, 20:22#18
Spot on Shark and to be quite frank I don't ever recall an issue with his defence. 
As you say, the only issue is his body holding up.
His break against Oz is just what we want in a 10. Meyer knows it and that's why he latched onto him straight away and even played him against NZ when it was clear early on he was still suffering from the injury he sustained against Oz the week before.


FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
12 Jan 2014, 22:45
#19
12 Jan 2014, 22:45#19

 I can not see HM playing Goosen at fullback.I Willie Le Roux has a better chance at fullback then him and also with Frans Steyn on the come back trail...who knows.But it will be interesting to see how the politics might affect the team selections this year and the comming years.Remember it is now a law that there is a quota system in place(which I totally disagree with)So to keep the politicians happy we might just see Kirchner in the 15 jersey for a long while.

 

Also if Lambie builds good momentum in the Super rugby season and Goosen plays a conservative game to go injury free(which is what I think might happen) then there is a strong possibilty that Goosen will warm the bench and Lambie wearing ten for the Boks.Tim Swiel is TNT waiting to go off.Meaning he has great potential but we have to learn that we can not keep thowing these young guns in at the deep end.Super rugby has to be the platform for development for international duties.If neither impress...I am certian that HM will play it safe and call Morne to the number ten shirt.He doesnt like taking risks.Hence we havent seen to many new faces in the team.Think about it other then Willie Le Roux...who really was new in the set up...Kolisi...Engelbrecht.

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
13 Jan 2014, 12:58
#20
13 Jan 2014, 12:58#20
 Goosen is not even close o the best flyhalf in South Africa since readmission. Yet again, too much hype and emotional content that is miles eschew of reality. He hasn't done anything of note to date. But alas, another three years before the penny drops. This child will never have the physical presence to play at 10 at test level. And kicking the ball further than any other 10? I highly doubt that too. Throw his very nervy temperament into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster. His defence is simply shocking. That the Cheetahs look much better without him says it all! As noted before, minus Goosen and with Robert at 12 and the defensive was markedly better; neigh! the best in their entire Super Rugby history. He will end a 15 due to his slight frame and will prosper there. He has the running skills to thrive at 15 and can conceal his frailties better. I cannot wait to see the snakes come out when it all goes wrong - assuming of course that Meyer will persist with Goosen. For Jantjies himself showed more promise, and we know that Lambie can at least coast 80 minutes in the position. If New Zealand laud him so highly, then why was it that the All Blacks went for both him and Taute? Just as they went for JJ and Lambie in 2011. Pay attention, look at the actions of your enemy, pay no credence to their flattery. They know damn well these players are vulnerabilities! Listen to Master Tzu and maintain your honour!
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jan 2014, 13:07
#21
13 Jan 2014, 13:07#21
Ah yeah good one. The lad is 20 and weighs 89 kg and is too slight for 10......what a load of rubbish. 
Went for Taute, when was that......but best of all......went for JJ in 2011........keep it up Sun, you are a fountain of informative knowledge!!
Let me guess you think Etzebeth would make a good centre?
AO
Admit OneClub Pro389 posts
13 Jan 2014, 13:28
#22
13 Jan 2014, 13:28#22
 Only injury will prevent this kid from becoming a legend. The only weakness in his game is his propensity to serious injuries. Really sad! He such a rare talent!
KA
KalaedFreddieClub Pro495 posts
13 Jan 2014, 13:35
#23
13 Jan 2014, 13:35#23
 Ooooh, I am so babelaas and the sun is very hot here today.
Daddy (Saffex) You are like most times spot on.  Goosen is a damn good 10 by my reconing too.  My only problem is he is so injury prone or so it looks becaus ehe is more off the field than on it .  The guy is probably the best defending 10 we have unlike Morne who makes some girly attempts to tackle and then misses the whole issue.  Lambie is also good and may be getting better this year with Mr. White at the training by the Sharks.  Yes I know Daddy you dont like Jake but he is a good coach with lots of skills.  Taute should replace that cullid bro of mine at 15.  Etsebeth is never a centre but that plank Andries he was a centre and a wing in some games.  Daddy did you see there is roumour that matfield is also making a comeback like Mohammed Ali that is a mistake for him because we have more than enough younplayers to make a stand.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Jan 2014, 13:58
#24
13 Jan 2014, 13:58#24
Ja KaalFreddie........I have seen this pathetic take on Matfield returning.......talk about Bulls and Bok rugby going backwards.

Reading Gavin Rich's book about the Bok coaches and how they are all struck my mad coach disease at some point.......I get the feeling Meyer is starting that slip already by going back to all these washed up hasbeens..........the list is getting longer........Aplon, Fourie, Jean, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, CJ v/d Linde, Heinke v/d Merwe, Franco v/d Merwe and Bakkies for now........next it will be Matfield, Juan Smith and Schalk Burger.......watch this space 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
13 Jan 2014, 14:09
#25
13 Jan 2014, 14:09#25
". . . and the defensive was markedly better; neigh! the best in their entire Super Rugby history."

"Neigh"? Are you writing this so that a horse would understand?

I remember a sad loser from way back who also didn't know the difference between "nay" and "neigh" and, coincidentally, who also didn't have the first clue about rugby but tried to sound as if he did. His name was Alucard but he used to creep around various message boards and blogs using several different names as well.

You're not the poster formerly known as Alucard, are you Sun-Twat?

What? Is that a "yea" or a . . . ummmm . . . a "neigh"?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jan 2014, 14:30
#26
13 Jan 2014, 14:30#26

Sun Tzu


You have not answered Saffex;s question - who do you think should be the Springbok flyhalf?  


Then we know the technique - any possible player you do not like - needs to be eliminated through  imaginary deficiencies.   So be positive and give us a logical and motivated answer. 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jan 2014, 14:37
#27
13 Jan 2014, 14:37#27


clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8553 RE: Goosen....Brittle or Brutal?
January 13, 2014, 12:30:40

Sun Tzu


You have not answered Saffex;s question - who do you think should be the Springbok flyhalf?  


Then we know the technique - any possible player you do not like - needs to be eliminated through imaginary deficiencies.   So be positive and give us a logical and motivated answer. 






CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Jan 2014, 16:01
#28
13 Jan 2014, 16:01#28

 Ceradyne


When players under-perform constantly they are to be criticised.   There is no player I dislike - there are players who under-perform and they open themselves  up to criticism.


I do not criticize performing players - only those who bring it onto themselves.   I do not invent reasons for criticism or reasons to down play players - I remain factual.   I also do not write imaginary reports praising players who in fact showed nothing during games or in fact under-performed.   

  


CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
13 Jan 2014, 19:17
#29
13 Jan 2014, 19:17#29

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 8560 RE: Goosen....Brittle or Brutal?
January 13, 2014, 14:01:48

 Ceradyne


When players under-perform constantly they are to be criticised.   There is no player I dislike - there are players who under-perform and they open themselves  up to criticism.


I do not criticize performing players - only those who bring it onto themselves.   I do not invent reasons for criticism or reasons to down play players - I remain factual.   I also do not write imaginary reports praising players who in fact showed nothing during games or in fact under-performed.  


.......and the Pope is my dad......

ST
Sun-TzuClub Pro713 posts
17 Jan 2014, 12:47
#30
17 Jan 2014, 12:47#30
 "I do not criticize performing players - only those who bring it onto themselves."

Mike, you are too much. It would be a dream to meet you in person, I could imagine you on your porch talking away into the wee hours about everything yet nothing in the way only a lonely old man can do. You criticize the best performing players with every single post. You hone in on, mostly Bulls and Sharks, players without rhyme or reason and never let up! With the persistence of an autistic veteran.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Jan 2014, 13:48
#31
17 Jan 2014, 13:48#31

 Sun Tzu


Still no answer to the question - who do you think should be the Springbok flyhalf>


Look - when I criticize players I base it on factual performances - not hype of anything else.   When I get a negative image of a player and there are contrary views on issues I would look at the stats and even at repeat broadcasts to see whether I was wrong. 


I do not live by hype and forget everything else.   Normally when I criticize players I have at least checked my facts.


Now back to your allegations of poor defence on the part of Goosen.   The only real norm available were the few games (4) Goosen played in last year in the Super series.   In that series he made 32 tackles - missing 4.   That represents a miss tackle ratio of 11,1%  - which is in fact an acceptable situation and do not indicate any deficiencies in defence at all.    Where you got the deficiency in defence from only you would know.  


You seem to think that Morne's defence is better - so I took the first four Bulls matches in Super 15 last year and found that Morne made 31 tackles - missing 5 tackles.   His missed tackle ratio was slightly higher at 13.9%.   Ten to 12% is acceptable - so Morne is above that norm.   Where Morne is not acceptable as a defender is on test level - where the missed tackle ratio in the RC last year was  over 19%.


 

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