Gunthro, Juan in Bok team.

SPRINGBOK TEAM

15. Zane Kirchner (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 22caps
14. JP Pietersen (The Sharks) 46 caps
13. Juan de Jongh (DHL Western Province) 12 caps
12.Jean de Villiers (captain) DHL Western Province 82 caps
11. Francois Hougaard (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 25 caps
10. Pat Lambie (The Sharks) 18 caps
9. Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, N-Ireland) 61 caps
8. Duane Vermeulen (DHL Western Province) 5 caps
7. Willem Alberts (The Sharks) 18 caps
6. Francois Louw (Bath, England) 15 caps
5. Juandré Kruger (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 6 caps
4. Eben Etzebeth (DHL Western Province) 9 caps
3. Jannie du Plessis (The Sharks) 40 caps
2. Adriaan Strauss (vice-captain, Toyota FS Cheetahs) 19 caps
1. Gurthrö Steenkamp (Toulouse, France) 38 caps

Replacements

16. Schalk Brits (Saracens, England) 3 caps
17. Heinke van der Merwe (Leinster, Ireland) 2 caps
18. CJ van der Linde (MTN Golden Lions) 74 caps
19. Flip van der Merwe (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 21 caps
20. Marcell Coetzee (The Sharks) 10 caps
21. Morné Steyn (Vodacom Blue Bulls) 41 caps
22. Jaco Taute (MTN Golden Lions) 3 caps
23. Lwazi Mvovo (The Sharks) 7 caps

Not a bad team, but would've start Taute at 15.

Why is CJ on the bench?,Id much rather have Pat cilliers there?

Hopefully Taute will get some time at 15 off the bench and i mean at least 30 min.

The rest is OK.

Yeah, I agree about CJ, but I gues injuries made that call. Hougard needs to have a big game, but the scary thing is, if he does not, then Mvovo will probably take his place in the starting line-up for the next game, and he really does not have what it takes at this level. Having said that, with the level of injuries the Boks have at the moment, this team is not that bad.

Rugby 101 CJ can play both sides - can Cilliers play loosehead?

Agree re Taute at 15 and then perhaps Flip at lock. We need a big physical effort to beat the Scots pack.

I saw more comments about Guthro playing well overseas so that looks like a plus. Meyer has kept changes to a minimum and maybe this is correct. The team needs to gel.

BEENO1, the problem is CJ is not what he once was. He used to be able to hold his own in the scrums, not anymore. Pat Cilliers has played LH for the Lions in some games last year and did well. The thing is, with having 2 props on the bench, you dont need a guy who can cover both.

Credit must go to Meyer for not changing too much,as we are not in a position to do so. One of his sparks in between all of his brainfarts.Also good that he is giving Dejong a shot with JDV next to him. Hopefully Dejong gets better ball than what Taute did.

I really hope Gurthro does well.

dup

Rugbvy 101 I forgot for a moment we have two reserves.

So not too much wrong with the side. Will Taute get a run at 15. If he does well it could force a change. I think Zane has been steady but not too much more than that. One neednt put ones nose up at steady but one does look for more when considering a Bok number 15. Folk give Zane worse marks than he often deserves.

and old zane still gets the nod above jaco ????

with the type of game that the boks play i think 6 point win is on the cards.

Nothjing unexpected - but for Hougaard.   How many flops will Hougaard have to make before he gets his marching orders?   De Jongh - not funny ha-ha - funny peciuliar.

FATSO is in and UNFIT OU is on the bench.   The first one will run out of steam after 15 minutes - the gut being to heavy for him to carry for longer.   The second one can perhaps make the last 10 minutes of the game.    Well lay a bet - those two are not good calls.

Glad to see Jannie is playing - he will have to last the full 80 minutes thourgh - otherwise the UNFIT OU  will come on.

Meantime - special message - keep it up Steenkamp  - there is ample food in Scotland - eat bro eat.    

You talking about the OU that gave away all those penalties against Racing Metro, Mike?

 brits needs some time in the field. taute on fullback and yes flip needs to take them on. they have big guys like grey that kan run over players need some one to stand up to him

Its a decent team but enough to win the scots surely. Im not expecting much from this forwards particularly Steenkamp and Kruger - Not impressive at all. Schalk Brits is far more remarkable than Strauss, he is truely the missing link in this team. I'll rate him the best hooker in the world, his form in the premiership when he was playing for Saracens was outstanding. Highly rated in europe, but rather underated in the SA public. Coetzee on the bench??

A few rebuttals:

1) Playing LH for the Lions is nothing like facing an NH pack.....I'm still happier with CJ than Cilliers for the last 15 minutes of a test.

2) There is this drumbeat for Taute at 15, but we haven't seen him there in anything but a CC game or a meaningless S15 game....all we know is his missed tackles and botched clearances cost us the NZ game....best he comes off the bench.

3) Houaard is in, and his form is poor. But the alternative is Mvovo....who is totally useless at everything except running in space. The thought of Mvovo against the Poms who like to put high cross kicks on opposing fragile wings, makes the blood run cold.

4) Has Steenkamp gone from a dynamic scrummager to a useless fattie in 12 months as Mike says....I doubt it.

5) Brits had chances in the Bok jersey before. At 5' 10" and a puffed up 100kgs, he is small for an international tight forward......and he is 31  years old. This is another Quixotic moment. Our scrum with Brits at hooker will creak, that was his problem, even when he was younger.

Meyer has generally done a decent job of picking this team. Watch, oh watch for the quietus on Saturday.

Mozart

Meyer's main problem is his team selection.  He always manage to bugger up in some way or another.   If Steenkamp is still good - why does Toulouse play him from the bench?   When I saw him - his gut was bigger than that dumb boxer of yesrs ago - can still see his face - but not remember his name,   Was in one of the movies of Shuster.

I was amazed of what I saw when Steenlamp  had a slight injury and they pulled up his jersey --I have never seen a person that fat that is fit - it is physically impossible.   I think that is the reason that Toulouse play him as a bench player.   From a Toulouse club bench player - to a Springbok starting line-up player - REALLY UNBELIEVABLE.  

Moz, I have gone through the trouble of downloading the game that Mike was referring to, to see for myself how crap he as been scrumming, and how he was penalised. I have taken a screen shot, and the resolution is not too shithot. I have also had a look of pictures of Gurthro from 2010 when he was in great shape as well and named SA Player of the year. Judge for yourself:

The frist one is from the game in question, and he (no 17) can be seen at the ref's right arm, as he was awarding a penalty AGAINST Gruthro's opponent after a scrum. Gurthro was penalised once. Racing Metro got a free kick from a scrum against them and they were penalised two or three times for scrumming infringements in the time that Gurthro was on the pitch.

i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag136/ReadingB/Gurthro1.jpg

The second picture was taken on June 2010, when Gurthro was playing some of his best rugby.

i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag136/ReadingB/GurthroJune2010_zps779819e6.jpg

 I am not surprised that I had no response when I said that the game should be revisited and the penalties counted again.

I have also said elsewhere that I would admit that Gurthro was not as deadly in defence as we have seen him, but he has also come off an injury.

Be that as it may, the impression was created that he was a wobbling fat slob who was scrummed in the ground, and that was definitely not the case.

What a bunch of porkers in that second shot! Gurthro was certainly huge even at that point. But I can't believe he can't scrum a year after he was a RWC stalwart. Thanks for that Vlag.

I actually planned to compile a clip of all the scrums in that game, after he came on, and post it on YouTube but I just cannot be bothered.

Moz the thing is Cilliers held his own against Ireland, CJ did not. Cilliers wont be used as a LH, was just refering to Beeno's comment about CJ being able to play both sides.

Hougaard hasnt been great, but lets be honest....A stuggling Hougaard is still better than watching Mvovo gather highballs with his feet(against AUS was not the first time)

You keep on hammering on it that Taute cost us the NZ game. This has been debated over and over... conclusion=he made a horrible mess when he missed a tackle on DAGG that led to a try, thats it., the bad defencive organisation of our team led to the other tries. As much as I would like him to start at 15 though we have to remember that he hasnt played 15 for months.........so its a difficult situation. i would say that we should give him 30 min from the bench at 15.

So 107, we reach the same conclusion on Taute playing off the bench, perhaps for different resaons. Hell, that's good enough for me.

Ceradyne

Thanks for the info.  I still maintain the scrummaging turned poor after Steenkamp came on.   Scrums were never stable and keep collapsing.   Can clearly remember one penalty against  his opponent and I thought there was two against Steenkamp.  One must have been the short arm one.  Why don't you do us all a favour and show the pic where he was treated for a slight injury and they pulled up his jersey.   That was the real scoop - that one.

We will soon enough see on Saturday whether he is still fit to last one half of a game.  I say not - and I stay with that one.

.  

Mike, there were only one against Steenkamp, and at least two against his direct opponent. I have the game on my computer and I would go through the trouble of compiling that video clip if you want. There was also a free kcik against Racing Metro. That was in fact the very first scrum after he came on. The picture that I have posted was the first penalty against Steenkamp's opponent, IIRC. The other incident was on the Racing Goal line when Toulosse scrummed that crap out of Racing. I do not agree that the Toulosse scrums were poor after Gurthro came on. should I compile the clip for you?

BTW, do you still believe like he has put on 15kg?

The thought of Mvovo against the Poms who like to put high cross kicks on opposing fragile wings, makes the blood run cold.

Wigboy, theres no need for conjecture. If u want to imagine Mvovo against the Poms then just do a bit of research and check out his second test match where he played against England, scored a try & defended like a trojan. The only thing making blood run cold is yr ignorance.

Ceradyne

Thanks - but don't bother.   I am going to ask you one question about the 2010 pic you posted.  That photo showed some really fat players with their guts nearly hanging over their shorts.   Could those three players really be fit to play a full game of rugby?   No wonder the New Zealanders always called John Smit FATSO and no wonder the 2011 WC campaign was a flop.

But for the extra heavies fun game I saw many years ago in George - I have never seen fatter players on any rugby field in my life - definitely not on provincial and Springbok level.   With those bellies - how fit could they have beenan how could they have been running at a reasonable speed?  I shudder to think that a coach could allow players to get that overweight - especially on Springbok level.

I quess after seeing that pic - I will have no option but to change the 15 kgs extra lard to 10 kgs.   

Actually Old Fruit, the fact that everybody is still wondering whether he should be playing for the Boks two years later is your clue....comprende?

So, you are going admit that you slipped up with your assesment of Gurthro's scrumming the?

One question for you Mike, since you have decided to rather side-step the issue by telling tales about some game between some unknown fatties some years ago: Was 2010, the year when the picture of those really far players (including Gurthro) not the year that he won the Player of the Year award? Oh, and now you have decided to attribute the 2011 RWC "flop" to the fatties. I would say that Gurthro looks remarkably similar in stature to what he was in 2010, if not slightly more trim. I guess, seeing that pic (the latest one), I would suggest that you wash the fat off your glasses.

Wigboy, the fact remains, only an ignorant fool with little knowledge of recent SA rugby history would be wondering how Mvovo might fare against England. 

I wasn't wondering Old Fruit, I was predicting....there is a difference. But not based on form two years ago....but the second Bargie test , where he was too chicken to take the kick-off.....and registered  zero tackles in one attempt. Can't say I've seen many zero tackle performances, but if there is to be one, I'm not surprised it's Mvovo.

Ceradyne

I did not realize how fat Steenkamp was in 2010 already.   No he is fatter now - just look at the lard that spilled out when they moved his jersey up after injury in the Toulouse match.   I still think that fatness is a sign of unfitness.  After the florious year of Springboks losses in internationals in 2011 - Steenkamp was selected as Player of the Year.   What an achievement for a fat slob,   He had no real competition - since the rest of the old boys club of rugby geriatrics was even worse than him.   Smit even beat him in the guts stake,  Or do you regard the 2011 Springbok performance as a yardstick for excellence?

Really we have gone down badly since 2007.   White would never have accepted that level of fatness and consequential unfitness as a coach.   

Mozart

What do you say now about your hero Steenkamp - but maybe we should leave that till after the Scottish test.   Then his huge gut will make him Man of the GUT because he was better than the other expected failure you supported so strongly - De Jongh..   

@Mike. You are battling to come to grips by the look of it. I challenged the accuracy of what you have said on two points.

1. You have said that he has gained at least 15kg's, and now you say that he was already a fat slob, in 2010,  and that he was Player of the year in 2011. He also had no opposition to the award, if I read you correctly, because the rest was even mnore pathetic. Fact is that the gain of 15kg is something that you have dreamed up. In addition, he was did not get the POY award in 2011, he got it in 2010. In 2011 he kept Beast out of the team. So, boom goes your theory of his 15kg of weight that he has put on, and you got the year that he won the award wrong, and you got the reason for winning the award wrong as well.

2. You have said that the Toulose scrumaging was a mess and unstable when he came on and that he was penalised at least twice. The scrumaging was not a mess. On the contrary, the first scrum that Toulose got, they got awarded a free kick. Not too long after that, his opponent was penalised, and that penalty was at the point where the picture (that I posted) was taken. I captured the image from the footage of the game. shortly after that Steenkamp was penalised. There was another scrum that ended in a mess as well and Racing Metro was penalised. During another scrum, on the Racing Metro goal line, the entire Racing Metro scrum disentifrated and Toulose got a penalty. So, you are not accurate either.

Having said that, I have said elsewhere, and I will say it again, that he was not nearly as deadly in defence as I have seen him in the past. Steenkamo is also not my hero, as you would like to believe. In addition, I have not said that he was going to be a revelation and the hero of the day, come the test against Scotland. I was merely criticizing the accuracy of your remarks.

You are on a roll to discredit almost everything about the Springboks, which is fine, and your right, especially on a board like this. You have to bear in mind, though, that if you want to discredit somebody or something, it is better to do it with facts, than to try and feed everybody bullshit. If you do not like either Steenkamp, or HM, then you could well have said that you question his (Steenkamp's) inclusion because he did not appear sharp and commited in his general play, especially his defensive efforts. If you have said that I would have agreed with you 100% and I would even have supported it. Instead you attacked his scrumming and his wieght with dreamed up bullshit. There was nothing wrong with his scrumming, and it was the opposite of what you hace said, and there is no way that he has gained that much weight, if any. I could have posted another the image of him, but that was taken in June, and you would have said that he couls have gained weight from then till now. That is why I used an image from the game. This is the image taken in June this year:

cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cCT0R35zBe1m/613x459.jpg

PS, you ended your post by some more bullshit. Show me where I have ever supported Juan de Jongh. Let me tell you this. You are talking crap, if you say that. I challenge you to show me a post where I supported De Jongh. I will even remind you of my username on Supersupporter where I also post, so you can check on there as well. The threads on there do not "disappear", after some time like they do on this board. You can access each and every single post right from when that board was first started on 10 June 2010, and you can do a search on key words. So, if you want to do that check as well, let me know and I will give you the details. Come on now, be a man, and take me up on this challenge.

Ceradyne

Tou obviously made a rel study of that Toulouse - Metro game.  I only looked at the game once and was no happy about Steenkamp.   Your interpretations are correct  and I don't think it will help to contnue with those discussions.

I still think Meyer is wrong with his selection of Steenkamp and Van der Linde - and that Van der Linde let us down in the Irish test - I expect no different from Steenkamp.  You cannot build a team for the future with them involved.   Despite what you may think about my criticism of Meyer - I believe that he is in essence on the right road and may yet succeed.

He made some really bad selections - for instance Greyling and Werner Kruger - who were in the top three in giving away penalties in Super 15 and Meyer of all people should have been aware of the fact that they were serious liabilities.   On the other hand - he must also be under some presure politically to come up with selections like De Jongh and Jantjies.   Both have serious deficiencies - De Jongh  has a seriously poor record in Super 15 this year and is useles in attacking play.  That CC final try was a lash in the pan - nothing more.    Jantjies is another case of really poor selection as far as I am concerned - he was vey bad in the Soweto test,   I have a suspiciton that Meyer also has reservtions about him.

Insofar as Assistant Coaching is concerned - I think the main problem is in fact the backline coach.   There is no way that we can continue with him - Meyer should get an expert (preferably from New Zealand or get in Eddie Jones)  to get our backline functioning properly and should use Nienaber to deal with defence.  

.

 Both Guthrow and CJ are very big men and roughly the same size where as Jannie and Heinke is roughly the same size. I would have both Guthrow and CJ in my starting 15 if they were in form. Just remember how Jake white persevered with Os and brough him out of retirement. Both Guthrow and CJ has over 50 caps and if the can get there form back they can become extremely valuable to the bok cause. With the new law of having 2 props on the bench, this would mean that you can send on more mobile and lighter props such as Jannie and Heinke to give you that extra impact. 

I think that both CJ and Guthrow have enough in the tank to  make the next world cup. Props are like red wine, the older they get the better they get.

I did not make a study of that game. I haven't even watched the first half yet and for a good reason as well. I missed the game when it was played. It was a Friday game. I was surprised to learn that he has allegedly put on 15kg because the last I saw him play, I actually thought to myself that he was actually looking "trimmer" than when he last played for the Springboks (see the last picture that I posted from back in June). I wanted to see for myself what has really happened. It was then that I discovered that I cannot, and stiil do not believe that he has put on that much weight. It was also then that I realised that you were "slightly wayward with the truth" about the scrums. If you now concede that my interpretations were correct, why then the mission of trying to protray him as a fat slob who was murdered in the scrums? What was the motivation?

To go off on a lecture about the pressure on Meyer to select players like Jantjies and De Jongh also does not help your case in ducking and diving from the fact that you said that I supported De Jongh.

I say again, if you want to make a point to discredit someone, you will be drawing the short stick every time, if you do not do it with facts. The moment you start with the porkies, you just put a massive dent in your own arguments.

"You are on a roll to discredit almost everything about the Springboks, which is fine, and your right, especially on a board like this".

Windpomp dont talk complete rubbish. Mike criticises certain players and commends others so you are bullshitting big time when you say  he discredits almost everything about the Boks!! He also gives his reasons rightly or wrongly as we all do. An appology would be in order. Many folk are unhappy with the way things are going and can point to specific reasons. I am optimistic on the longer term view and plead for patience.

Just how fit guthro is will be seen on Saturday. If he has a gut it would not surprise me as I have seen props with tummy before. We shall see I am not expressing an opinion.

Also what do you mean by especially on a board like this. Why are you here if its a board like this other than to advertise ss board and recruit if possible?  Another reason is boredom no doubt!  You guys made your bed now lie on it. Toughies!

Windpomp re you recruiting - no sane person wants to be on a board where their private details, place of work and name of boss are given out, where they are threatened with a report to ones boss that one has accessed the website using company hardware, where the attitude is this is my house and my rules and if you dont like it bugger off and where extreme mod bias is the norm. No go and chat to the oaks running that miserable website and try and get them to grow up or maybe you are still too immature to take on that task. Bwhahahahahhahahahaha.

For a moment I thought you were here to talk rugby.

No more insulting this board please windpomp.  Given the circumstances that is absurd!

kingcorn

Steenkamp and Van der Linde for the next WC - based on the fact that Os was good enough,   I would say if we really wat to commit harakiri - then that is the way to go.  Van der Linde was no food against the Irish - even his inflated rating was 5 out of 10 - so what makes you so sure he is good enough to be in the starting line - up for 2015.   He is so useless that the Stormers fot rid of him - if he is not good enough for the Stormers Super side - what makes him good enough for the Springboks????

As to Steenkamp - maybe slightly better than Van der Linde - but I think he is bound to fail against the Scots.   Matter of fact i am certain of that and we can watch him on Saturday and see whether he can make it.   Steenkamp at 34 in the WC - that really would be a disaster.    

Mike I dont think either CJ or Steenkamp will be in the picture for long. We have a number of very good younger players like Kitshoff, Malherbe and Marcell coming through. One only hopes Coenie comes right also. Those two will be too old for the world cup.

Ceradtne

What brought that tirade on - I tried my utmost to be diiscuss issues on a friendly and gentlemanly manner and then you went overboard.   I also said that I think Meyer is acceptableas a coach  - and then went on to discuss the fact that he made some selection errors and with his assistant coach appointments,   Was that so wrong?   Am I not entitled to my own impressions and opinions on players and other issues  - or are they above board and 100% provided they are from the Blue Bulls?

Sorry about this - but I think, the main reason why people post issues on the Board is to state their opinion (for what they are worth) on it.  If everyone thinks alike - and say the same thing - nobody would really bother about membership.   You are entitled to your opinion - I am to mine.

@ Ou Beenbal. Ooh now I have touched a nerve, haven't I? Let's have a look:

1. "Mike criticises certain players and commends others so you are bullshitting big time when you say  he discredits almost everything about the Boks!!" I am not bullshitting. The story with Steenkamp is a perfect example. Talking about tirades. He set off on a crusade to discredit Steenkamp. He was bullshitting about his wieght and he was bullshitting about the scrummaging and he was bullshitting about the penalties. why did he do that, huh? Tell me. Then he continiued the bullshit by saying that I supproted Juan de Jongh.

2. "Also what do you mean by especially on a board like this. Why are you here if its a board like this other than to advertise ss board and recruit if possible?  Another reason is boredom no doubt!  You guys made your bed now lie on it. Toughies!"

First of all, this was my entire remark, but you chose to use only a small part of it for your own stupid little agenda:

"You are on a roll to discredit almost everything about the Springboks, which is fine, and your right, especially on a board like this."

What I meant was that it is well within his right to do that on a board LIKE this, meaning any message board, similar to this one, which is an open board wher you are allowed to express your views and where you should expect to be criticised about your views. Pretty much like you are doing about my views at the moment. Comprende, or should I try somnething else for you. It was not directed at this board in particular. Just to reiterate it. I was a member of this board long before you, and unless I get banned thorugh any wrong doing on my side, you can piss off and forget about trying to criticise me posting here.

3. "Windpomp re you recruiting -"  What recruiting?

Where? I offered him another source to find a place where I supported Juan de Jongh. Apart from that, was there not an active effort to "recruit" members from another board to join this one? Pot............ kettle.............. black...........?

4. "where the attitude is this is my house and my rules and if you dont like it bugger off and where extreme mod bias is the norm." I have seen a number of posts where your mate Mike told posters to "bugger off", and reported people who were then banned.

@Mike. I have not questioned your right to your views. In fact, like I said to ou Beenbal above, you have every right to do so. I just do not agree with the way that you are trying to prove your points, and once again, that is my right to say so. I also do not believe that I was rude in any way. You made an unfounded remark aboyt me, which is not true, and I challenged you to either agree that you were wrong or show me that you were correct. I have said earlier that if you criticised Steenkamp for his general play, defensive effort and commitment, then fine, but you choice to use stuff that was plain not true, and that was what I pointed out. You have also been found to "using the facts in strange ways" in other posts. I.e. the substitution and points situation in the Dunedin test.

No twisting matters windpom! "You are on a roll to discredit almost everything about the Springboks" That comment re Mike is bullshit. He was critcising Steenkamp and CJ NOT almost everything about the springboks.

A board like this - well here your turn of phrase may just have been unfortunate and was open to missunderstanding. Only you know for certain what you ment.

As for Mike asking the Mod here to look into a few matters - that is an entirely different situation. Mike is not a mod here for one thing.  My comments were about the persons running that board of yours. I note also you do not deny the truth of my comments because you cannot - nobody can.  If you polled this board about the few oaks who were banned you would be unlikely to find anyone really dissenting.

But okay lets leave it at that.  If you are here in good faith you will always be welcome.  This is a great board so hope you can simply enjoy it with no ulterior motive.

Ou Beenbal, WTF are you on about mate? You quote what I have said, but I don'ty think you even flippin read what you are quoting. Let me repeat the part that you have quoted and then you take some time and read it properly. Take all day if you want to:  "You are on a roll to discredit almost (Repeat: ALMOST) everything about the Springboks" Should I say that again. ALMOST. Got it? ALMOST. Should I explain that for you? Maybe this would help:

al·most  (ôlmst, ôl-mst)

windpomp you total half wit Mike is far from discrediting ALMOST everything etc. get it. Bwahahahahahhaha man one has to labour with this oaf!!!